Syrio Forel, Jaqen H'ghar, The Faceless Man - Possible SPOILERS

[Pedro Del Mar]

I think one of the more intersting threads in ASOIAF is the storyline of Arya Stark. Who'd guess at the beginning of the story that Arya would be training to be an assassin? Not me that's for sure.

Anyhow, anyone got any theories on whether we're likely to see a reappearance of Syrio Forel or Jaqen H'ghar and if either of these are the Faceless Man in disguise?

I for one would love to see Syrio again.

crooksy

 

[Iron captain]

Yeah would be good to syrio again, don't think he was confirmed dead so maybe we will. And as for Jaqen I believe we may have already seen him again as his description after he changed faces in ACOK in front of Arya closely matches the description of the alchemist who Pate meets in the AFFC prologue, and considering the end of the book it seems like he's added another face to his collection.

 

[The Imp]

I don't have the time at the moment, but this is one of my "pet" theorioes, and if you look back on this forum you'll find a thread regarding these topics.

 

[The Imp]

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533049-new-crackpot-theory-the-faceless-men.html

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533150-is-varys-a-targ.html

those are the two threads that have the main stuff, i think

 

[Iron captain]

Interesting, must admit I hadn't considered a lot of those points with varys, illryrio and a possible FM higher power, along with varys being a targ but it seems there is at least some evidence to suggest so, Damn it Imp every time I think I've wrapped my head around a theory you give another which leaves me scratching my head lol

 

[The Imp]

Interesting, must admit I hadn't considered a lot of those points with varys, illryrio and a possible FM higher power, along with varys being a targ but it seems there is at least some evidence to suggest so, Damn it Imp every time I think I've wrapped my head around a theory you give another which leaves me scratching my head lol

I just LOVE a good crackpot theory that can be supported with facts/forshadowing.

I had a great one about Ned being alive, but it seems as if the first season of GOT and aDwD killed him for good.

 

[Ursa major]

I just LOVE a good crackpot theory that can be supported with facts/forshadowing.

I had a great one about Ned being alive, but it seems as if the first season of GOT [...] killed him for good.

While I haven't yet seen Game of Thrones - March seems such a long way away - the fact that the viewers of the show have now seen the execution shouldn't really change anything. On the assumption that various characters (particularly Ned) aren't providing voice overs, the viewers have now seen what we already know those characters who were at the execution have seen.

If someone had stopped looking at the screen through their fingers and shouted, "That isn't Ned!" you can be pretty sure that someone in the book would have thought the same and either fought not to give the game away or demand to know what was going on.

So in that respect, Game of Thrones proves nothing: the book had a convincing execution; so did the TV show.

 

[The Imp]

While I haven't yet seen Game of Thrones - March seems such a long way away - the fact that the viewers of the show have now seen the execution shouldn't really change anything. On the assumption that various characters (particularly Ned) aren't providing voice overs, the viewers have now seen what we already know those characters who were at the execution have seen.

If someone had stopped looking at the screen through their fingers and shouted, "That isn't Ned!" you can be pretty sure that someone in the book would have thought the same and either fought not to give the game away or demand to know what was going on.

So in that respect, Game of Thrones proves nothing: the book had a convincing execution; so did the TV show.

There was a Ned POV up to the point where he got executed. He died in Arya's POV

Arya only saw him from a distance and thought that the man up there didn't look like her father.

The executioner's platform was away from the rest of the onlookers, meaning that no one saw Ned up close.

Varys knew that Joffrey would kill Ned and set up a switch the night before when he visited him.

Sansa sees ned's head on the spike and doesn't think it looks like her father

Cat gets Ned's bones and says|those are not the bones of my husband"

The execution scene in GOT would only make a Faceless Man possible, if there was a switch.

In aDWD, Bran should know if his father is alive (one would think( when he becomes the Bran-tree.

still not 100% impossible, but very, very unlikely now

 

[Ursa major]

I didn't say this was at all likely - that's why I left ADwD out of my post - but the point I was making was that while we had to wait (or, in my case, have still to wait) to see a close up of Ned, those in the execution party always had a close up view. All that has happened with the TV show is that now we've been as "close" to the person dispatched as those present.

For the person supposed to have been executed to have survived, the level of trickery and disguise would have had to be very high. We've known that ever since the reading of that scene by the first reader who wanted Ned to survive and wondered if he could have. (The only other possible way that a not-very-convincing replacement Ned would have worked is that everyone who got close to him would have had to have been in on the trick, which just about all of us would not, and never would, believe.)

 

[The Imp]

I didn't say this was at all likely - that's why I left ADwD out of my post - but the point I was making was that while we had to wait (or, in my case, have still to wait) to see a close up of Ned, those in the execution party always had a close up view. All that has happened with the TV show is that now we've been as "close" to the person dispatched as those present.

For the person supposed to have been executed to have survived, the level of trickery and disguise would have had to be very high. We've known that ever since the reading of that scene by the first reader who wanted Ned to survive and wondered if he could have. (The only other possible way that a not-very-convincing replacement Ned would have worked is that everyone who got close to him would have had to have been in on the trick, which just about all of us would not, and never would, believe.)

Part of my original crackpot theory was the possibility that a Faceless man was used to replace Ned, the plan being that he would confess, get sent to the Wall, then disappear. Joffrey screwed the plan up.

Hey, it's not a crackpot theory for nothing

 

[Eversummer]

interesting crackpot theory c:

 

[The Imp]

interesting crackpot theory c:

The only reason I'vbe abandoned my Ned is alive theory is because of the way the execution was shot in the TV series.

 

[Eversummer]

I was thinking of another Jaqen H'ghar too. Poor Ned... killed by TV.

 

[Tywin]

I don't know why dying on TV with a Ned face would change this crackpot theory. We have plenty of beloved crackpot theories involving glamours and magic used to change people's faces (death of Mance/Rattleshirt). It appears that the faceless men have access to this kind of magic for their own use as Jaqen H'ghar seemed to demonstrate the talent to Arya.

 

[The Imp]

I don't know why dying on TV with a Ned face would change this crackpot theory. We have plenty of beloved crackpot theories involving glamours and magic used to change people's faces (death of Mance/Rattleshirt). It appears that the faceless men have access to this kind of magic for their own use as Jaqen H'ghar seemed to demonstrate the talent to Arya.

Part of what brought me to the theory is that Ned didn't die in his own POV and that Arya saw him from a disatnce and didn't think the man up there looked like her father. The TV closeup doesn't negate the theory, it just makes it less likely and more "crackpot-ish"

The idea of glamour is interesting in thsi context.

 

[Ursa major]

But 'more crackpot-ish' is Good, isn't it?


(Answer = Yes!)

 

[The Imp]

But 'more crackpot-ish' is Good, isn't it?


(Answer = Yes!)

I think for a theory to be considered good crackpot it has to have a foundation that has both fact and inspired conjecture Too much crackpot tips the scales too far in the direction of strgithjacket. If that make sense?

 

[Ursa major]

But GRRM has provided everything - faceless men, glamour, warging - to make most crackpot theories possible, if not necessarily likely.


If Rattleshirt's demise isn't GRRM pointing out how Ned might have survived, what is it?

(Okay, it's GRRM's showing one part of a scheme that would explain how John might** have survived. But actually, it can do both of these tasks.)

 

[The Imp]

But GRRM has provided everything - faceless men, glamour, warging - to make most crackpot theories possible, if not necessarily likely.


If Rattleshirt's demise isn't GRRM pointing out how Ned might have survived, what is it?

(Okay, it's GRRM's showing one part of a scheme that would explain how John might** have survived. But actually, it can do both of these tasks.)

Who am I to argue with someone supporting my craziness

 

[Ursa major]

This is an ASoIaF crackpots' self-help group, isn't it?