I have suspicions my Beta readers are not as objective as they say...

[Danrama]

I believe my beta readers have been honest, but I doubt they've told the whole truth. It's a difficult task, because every reader makes a subjective judgement and what works for one may not work for another. I think the beta reader should tell you their main problems without nit picking. It helps if they are writers themselves and not your nearest and dearest.

I try and stress to my beta readers that they are Beta readers and not editors. I find it hard when I get sentence corrections and even had one pull out her red pen (avoid teacher types) before handing it back. So I understand what you say when you mention nitpicking. I want pace/plot/character and world-building points primarily.

In the end my editor always seems to be the most objective and useful point of information on all these notes. Yet in saying that I have had some invaluable input from two specific readers but one has had a baby and the other is far too busy lately for my second novel... leaving me betaless!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Oh, I dunno, some red penning is fine. Apparently my characters are like puffer fish these days due to my habit of round instead of around (so that's a control and find). And it's done wonders for my commas use. And eradicated the word thought from anything I write. The character interaction/plot stuff is invaluable, but I like the other stuff, too. It keeps me on my toes, make sure I edit it properly...

 

[Danrama]

In my opinion it rests with you to catch as many of the above as you can. If an agent requests the first ten pages then finds a pile of misspellings and bad structure, he is not goiing to read even the whole ten. You must double check and polish every aspect of your work. It is your CV, you won't get another chance with this novel.

There is the misnomer that publishers will sort out spelling, sentence construction etc and you don't have to worry about it. Yes, you do.

I do not trust myself enough to hand over work I have edited myself. I will always pay my editor to copy-edit my work and then I will proof read it again. Only after that will I forward the work elsewhere.

 

[Aminar]

I don't mind red penning, as long as they also look at plot, pacing, and character development. I have final say on what changes and what doesn't(Being unattached to any publishers at this point.) If I'm making lots of grammar or spelling mistakes I'd love to know. Just don't nitpick the dialogue. That can be as screwy as I want.

That said, finding the correct intelligence among my close friends is difficult. The ones that have it just get annoyed they haven't actually done any writing in forever(being your typical writers that never write.) In fact my best critic is my girlfriend. She knows good writing well enough to let me know when I'm off and is comfortable criticizing my work because she knows I don't take it personally.

 

[dwndrgn]

My writer friends use specific, accredited copy editors for grammar and error fixing but they solicit beta readers from people who read a great deal. Those people give them information on how the story reads to a disconnected reader. They can tell you that the chemistry between two of the characters doesn't work or the stuff that is supposed to be funny/creepy/exciting isn't. They can also point out things that don't fit or just things that seem odd.

Your beta readers should be READERS. People who do it for fun and enjoyment and like to do it. These are the people who would eventually be buyers - you want their opinions on whether your story is coming out the way you expect it to.

I've done beta reading in the past and while I'll find and comment on the odd grammar error or word choice issue - the main things they ask me is "Does this work?" "Did you enjoy it?" "What parts didn't work?" "Did you find X funny/creepy/adventurous?"

Best of luck! I hope your ms finds a home soon!

 

[Danrama]

In fact my best critic is my girlfriend. She knows good writing well enough to let me know when I'm off and is comfortable criticizing my work because she knows I don't take it personally.

Oh god...

I wish my girlfriend could read my work. She is a Finnish girl and despite her English being fantastic (on top of that she studies education at her university and that means she studies in English) she struggles to read novel length books in English. She tells me it just hurts her head

So I envy you!

Your beta readers should be READERS. People who do it for fun and enjoyment and like to do it. These are the people who would eventually be buyers - you want their opinions on whether your story is coming out the way you expect it to.

I've done beta reading in the past and while I'll find and comment on the odd grammar error or word choice issue - the main things they ask me is "Does this work?" "Did you enjoy it?" "What parts didn't work?" "Did you find X funny/creepy/adventurous?"

I agree with this in spades.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Something that worries me though is that my editor was so positive about my work and confidant in its success that I think she missed a key point that is coming up now with my agent/publisher pitches/submissions. My novel is too short. It is complete and polished at 92600 words and it is a fantasy novel. She never stressed that point to me. In fact no one has before the agents etc.

Does your editor work in the SFF market? If not, her opinions about word count are irrelevant - every genre has its own "marketable length", and as has been mentioned already, it even varies from one country to another!

Also, if you've paid someone to copyedit your work, she's not going to say it's not ready for submission

 

[chrispenycate]

I try and stress to my beta readers that they are Beta readers and not editors. I find it hard when I get sentence corrections and even had one pull out her red pen (avoid teacher types) before handing it back. So I understand what you say when you mention nitpicking. I want pace/plot/character and world-building points primarily.

In the end my editor always seems to be the most objective and useful point of information on all these notes. Yet in saying that I have had some invaluable input from two specific readers but one has had a baby and the other is far too busy lately for my second novel... leaving me betaless!

If you put something up for critique, make sure you mention you don't want the nitpicking done; others here will tell you about my use of red pen.

But I think you're wrong. Frequently I add question marks to my corrections, normally meaning "I wasn't quite sure what you intended to say, so chose this interpretation". The punctuation can completely change the meaning of a collection of words, so you need to feel the subtleties of the modifications, or how do you recognise what your editor's doing for you? As if you didn't have control of the language, and took someone else to choose the words for you.

Certainly, to err is human; in any consequent work there will be errors, requirements for proof reading. And, for quite a while to come, this checking is going to be biological, not electronic. But the author has to be in a position of 'No, this is what I wanted to say', and to do that (s)he has to have mastered the form. Otherwise we approach the situation of the:- 'I've got this superb idea, wouldn't you like to write it for me' wannabe.

Mayhap this situation is about to change; after all, there was a time when painters learnt about mixing pigments as a major part of their education. Technological aids impinge from every side, and I would not care to be without them. But for now I consider that control of word and silence is an essential for anyone who cares to write anything more complex than the instructions for opening a carton of milk.

Or perhaps a scientific exposé.

 

[Kylara]

I've always wanted to be a beta reader...mainly because I want to read it before everyone else :wink: but also because I find myself often very unsurprised by plot twists, and very angry at Stupid Moments required of both characters and readers and thought (in a rather big headed way) that had they given it to me to read at beta stage, I would have pointed it out, and then they could have fixed it, or told me to shove off, or I could happily say it passes my reading test and I find very little to fault, and I still could have gone - ooh I was a beta for that - when it appears pride of place on shelves

 

[Boneman]

I've always wanted to be a beta reader...mainly because I want to read it before everyone else :wink: but also because I find myself often very unsurprised by plot twists, and very angry at Stupid Moments required of both characters and readers and thought (in a rather big headed way) that had they given it to me to read at beta stage, I would have pointed it out, and then they could have fixed it, or told me to shove off, or I could happily say it passes my reading test and I find very little to fault, and I still could have gone - ooh I was a beta for that - when it appears pride of place on shelves

sits back and watches as Kylara disappears under an avalanche of work...

 

[Danrama]

sits back and watches as Kylara disappears under an avalanche of work...

Laughed so hard!

Chrispenycate I think you are right I should be more open to the red pen I do have readers who I specifically want to point those types of errors out and of course corrections at any stage are welcome. I am always learning not to feel as bridled by someone correcting a spelling mistake I made at 4am while speeding through a scene to get it out of my head, then missing the mistake on a reread before handing it over to them.

Your comment reminds me of a book written by the late Asimov. It is about a robot that edits a scientists work and makes intentional errors to protect him from "harming" other scientists unintentionally, because his work would prove theirs wrong. Cannot remember the title for the life of me...

 

[Kylara]

sits back and watches as Kylara disappears under an avalanche of work...

Reading? Work? Never! Bring it on!

 

[allmywires]

Reading? Work? Never! Bring it on!

That statement will be the death of you, trust me!

(But if you're serious.... *joins the queue forming at Kylara's email inbox*)

 

[Kylara]

Totally serious :wink: I shall create a folder specially for it in my most amusing email account! the account is...drumroll...(and no laughing, a friend made it for me years ago, and named it as she saw fit, I had no input at all, but it does sound amusing) in fact it's probably best to PM me for the address :wink: but don't bother with an orderly queue hehehehe awaits deluge of new reading material :wink:

 

[Dante]

I tend not to keep regular beta readers because I don't want to end up modifying my writing to suit any particular person's tastes. In every critique there is both the systematic and the idiosyncratic. I try to mix up the critiquers to try to wash out the noise.

 

[kshRox]

I don't completly agree with that. Never rule anyone out, unless you think they won't be honest because they don't want to upset you - such as family members.

A person might be good at spotting continuity errors, they might help you find sentences which are difficult to read. A person who simply reads your story and says I didn't like/understand something or I loved this/that about it.

People who can write might be better at all that, but I would look for a varied bunch of readers.

I think I would almost prefer readers over writers. Or at least writers who don't read. I want to target the demographic who will consume the product, not analyze it to death.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Where are they all? perhaps my 'polished' ms isn't as sparkling as my editor and my beta readers led me to believe.

I try and stress to my beta readers that they are Beta readers and not editors. I find it hard when I get sentence corrections and even had one pull out her red pen (avoid teacher types) before handing it back. So I understand what you say when you mention nitpicking. I want pace/plot/character and world-building points primarily.

QUOTE]

I've been thinking about this, and I think the two are linked. If you ask for beta readers, you're asking for someone to critically assess your work, it's up to them how to do it. If you ask them not to red pen but just to feed back on one or two aspects you won't get an objective feedback. What you might get is a beta who worries will they offend, or wonders if an honest crit will be taken badly, which never leads to objectivity.

I leave it up to the beta. Some have done line by line crits with lots of red/blue/comments boxes. Others have done plot points. Some have read it and handed it back and said a few comments. All have added massively to it, and all have come back to my many, many follow on questions.

I find it hard, when I'm reading critically, not to comment if I see something glaring with the grammar(not that I'm an expert, so I have to be fairly sure to comment), or a typo. After all, this is going to be submitted, and it can be read many times and I might be the only one who notices.

Eg. I had a scene, which had been read by me umpteen times, had been betaed a lot of times, and a reader near the end of the process was the first to pick up my space ship moved from one scene to the next. It had, too. But in the first chapter(where it was) that sort of error could see it being stuck in the slush pile.

 

[The Judge]

I've never understood the only-tell-me-the-big-issues argument. If someone noticed that my writing was ungrammatical or lacking in polish, I'd want to know so I could take steps to improve that as well as everything else**. Sometimes one might want to send out a first draft to a beta reader to get confirmation as to whether something works or doesn't, in which case the reader would be wasting his/her time in looking too closely at language which might itself be changed, but even then I'd still be grateful for whatever help was offered --- otherwise the error might continue throughout the drafts and be replicated elsewhere, leading to more effort in correcting it later. (And personally I rarely send out work unless and until I've made it as polished as possible, anyway -- even first drafts.)

** As I think I've bored everyone with before, I had a habit of using the continuing past instead of the simple past in action scenes, which I naively thought gave an impression of movement. If Boneman and Teresa hadn't pointed it out to me, and made me think about its effects, I'd still be doing it, to the detriment of my work as a whole.

 

[Mouse]

I've never understood the only-tell-me-the-big-issues argument. If someone noticed that my writing was ungrammatical or lacking in polish, I'd want to know so I could take steps to improve that as well as everything else.

Seconded.

Continuing past and simple past?

 

[allmywires]

Seconded.

Continuing past and simple past?

I think (might be wrong) that it's the difference between 'was moving' and 'moved.'

I just need help on all aspects of my WiP so I'm not fussy with what feedback I receive...anything's helpful. Also I'd rather someone eviscerated my work at first, because then when they said something positive about it, it would mean more.

I mean I don't enjoy hearing I'm wrong but I'd rather that than sweet nothings so as not to offend.