the Dragon has 3 heads, A discussion on Prophecy

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I wanted to have a discussion about Prophecies, particulrly those that revolve around Dany, although please feel free to bring up others. I didn't see any threads dedicated to this so thought I would start one.

There are 2 prophecies in particular that I wanted to address.

The first can be found in aCoK when Dany goes to the House of the undying.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

"mother of dragons...child of three...three heads has the dragon...mother of dragons...child of storm..."
...three fires must you light...one for life and one for death and one to love...
...three mounts must you ride...one to bed and one to dread and one to love...
...three treasons will you know...once for blood and once for gold and once for love...

While in the house of the undying, much of what she is shown seems to be glimpses into the past, future, or what the future could have held had things gone differently, but always in a metaphorical sense, and not exactly as it happened or will happen.

What keeps nagging at me about this prophecy is that, I think Dany is misinterpreting it, and therefore, so are we. It keeps being brought up that "the Dragon has 3 heads" means that there will be 3 people riding Dany's 3 dragons. Dany certainly believes it, and it has been discussed here who those 3 heads will be, but Prophecy isn't usually as clear as that. What I understand when reading through this section, is not that there will be 3 people riding dragons, but 3 people controlling Dany. She is the Mother of Dragons but only 1 dragon has 3 heads. Viserys ofter referet to himself as "the dragon" (something we now know is false) but if Dany is the Dragon that has 3 heads, this might indicate 3 people who advise, controll or influence Dany. In the same sentance, we alse get the line Child of 3. If Dany is the child, this again supports that there are 3 people who will controll her, like parents.
reading further, the subsequent 3 sets of 3 could support this. 3 people could embody 1 aspect of each of those 3 sets of statements. For example, Khal Drogo could embody the Fire she lit to love (his Funeral Pyre), The mount she rode to love (the horse he gave her) and the treason she knew for love (Either Miri Maz Duhr's betrayal of her, or Her own betrayal of the Khalasar and her Khal in trusting Miri Maz Duhr). this would make Drogo a head of the dragon, something that is not hindered by the fact that he is already dead, because he already embodied 3 aspects of the prophecy, and therefore influenced Dany's actions. I am not saying that He IS, but just that it is a possibility in this interpretation of the prophecy.

Another "prophecy" that bothered me is Miri Maz Duhr's regarding Dany. (if you can call it a prophecy)

“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”

Dany believes that This means 2 things. 1) Drogo will never "be as he was" and 2) she will never get pregnant again, since all those other things are impossible.

In the first read through, this is a likely assumption to make. What bugs me about this "prophecy" is that everyone seems to have forgotten about point 1, and focused on point 2, that Dany can't get pregnant. Someone, when talking about dany's final chapter in aDwD, and the significance of her having blood on her thighs, brought up the point that the prophecy may have been fulfilled, and that she is now able to get pregnant. Their justification was Quenton Martell (the Sun) rose in the west and set in the east. The (dothraki) sea DID dry up/get burned the F down by Drogon. the great Pyramids (mountains) of meereen, and specifically the Men who held great positions and lived in these pyramids, are currently being brought low. and therefore, Dany can get pregnant. While I like this interpretation of events thus far, Dany getting pregnant is not the outcome of these things happening, merely another link that, if the prophecy held true, would restore Drogo to the way he was. But he got burned, so that negates this prophecy.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated and please feel free to blow holes all through my theory.

Also, sorry for the long first post of the thread.

 

[Tywin]

I like all of it.

I would like to see how some of the other prophecies work together with these.

 

[Young stormlord]

Another "prophecy" that bothered me is Miri Maz Duhr's regarding Dany. (if you can call it a prophecy)

“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”

Dany believes that This means 2 things. 1) Drogo will never "be as he was" and 2) she will never get pregnant again, since all those other things are impossible.

In the first read through, this is a likely assumption to make. What bugs me about this "prophecy" is that everyone seems to have forgotten about point 1, and focused on point 2, that Dany can't get pregnant. Someone, when talking about dany's final chapter in aDwD, and the significance of her having blood on her thighs, brought up the point that the prophecy may have been fulfilled, and that she is now able to get pregnant. Their justification was Quenton Martell (the Sun) rose in the west and set in the east. The (dothraki) sea DID dry up/get burned the F down by Drogon. the great Pyramids (mountains) of meereen, and specifically the Men who held great positions and lived in these pyramids, are currently being brought low. and therefore, Dany can get pregnant. While I like this interpretation of events thus far, Dany getting pregnant is not the outcome of these things happening, merely another link that, if the prophecy held true, would restore Drogo to the way he was. But he got burned, so that negates this prophecy.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated and please feel free to blow holes all through my theory.

Also, sorry for the long first post of the thread.

Two possible outcomes: 1.Drogo's bloodriders are still alive (blood of my blood and all that). At the end of Dance, Dany meets khalassar in the dessert. It could be one of them. 2. Drogo will return could mean Drogon will return, because she had actually named one of the dragons after her husband, to do what he could not. So, in a way, Drogo lives in his namesake.

Just my two cents.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Two possible outcomes: 1.Drogo's bloodriders are still alive (blood of my blood and all that). At the end of Dance, Dany meets khalassar in the dessert. It could be one of them. 2. Drogo will return could mean Drogon will return, because she had actually named one of the dragons after her husband, to do what he could not. So, in a way, Drogo lives in his namesake.

Just my two cents.

That is true, and something that I hadn't considered. It is Dany that asks when he will be as he was, but Mirri maz Duur (i got the name right this time, after the spelling was right there infront of me the whole time) only said "Then he will return, and not before"

But in saying, dany will need to give birth, not just get pregnant, for this to come to fruition, so it may be that Dany will get his khalasar, or be able to controll (truly controll) Drogon, in roughly 9 months.

I will look into more of the prophecies and visions from the house of the undying and see what I can make of it.

 

[Keebs411]

I like this alot!! I like the thinking out of the bbox vs what many of us thought might be more obvious.... i deff look forward to how thia could unfold

 

[Boaz]

SPOILERS for ASOS and beyond.

Also, sorry for the long first post of the thread.

Never apologizefor the length of posts. When you do, it makes me look bad.

So the return of Drogo...

Literally Drogo? No. I don't think so. The Dothraki don't believe in earthly reincarnation. Drogo is riding the night sky with the Khalasar of his forefathers.

Drogon? No. Drogon is named for Drogo, but he appeared the morning after Drogo's funeral pyre... and that was long before the sun set, the sea dried, and the mountains fell.

Dany in ASOS, I think, has visions of a lover. He is not Drogo. He is younger than Jorah.

Who was Drogo? What qualities did he possess? That's who Dany should be expecting if she wants the return of Drogo.

Drogo was courageous. Drogo lead from the front. Drogo was undefeated. Drogo gloried in battle... and utterly ferocious. Drogo was honorable, in the Dothraki way. Drogo was Dany's husband.

Who fits the bill?

Victarion? Ferocious, courageous and leads from the front, but he was defeated by Stannis during Balon's Rebellion. And I'm not sure if he's younger than Jorah.

Jon? Courageous. A born leader. But it seems that he was defeated by Bowen Marsh. And his vow is still a problem.

Gerold Dayne? We don't know much about him, but he's a nasty piece of work with a hunger to make a name for himself.

Lyn Corbray? Ferocious. Bloodthirsty. But I don't know that he's a leader... and he'd be more interested in his catamites than Dany.

Shagga? Ferocious. Glories in battle.

Timmett? Undefeated. Fearless. May be a descendent of the Arryns and the real heir of Little Lord Robert.

Jaime? Previously undefeated, fearless, and gloried in battle. Not so much anymore.

Barristan? Undefeated, but too old.

Daario? Courageous, bloodthirsty, ambitious, but not honorable.

Robb? Almost perfect. Honorable, courageous, led from the front, a conqueror, and... dead.

Aegon? Edric Storm? Gendry? A new character?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

aegon might fit the bill.Leads from the front, undefeated in his 1 battle thus far, ferocious? maybe not, but he might grow to be.

 

[Keebs411]

I alao like the thought of the blood rides. Not drogo actually reborn. As u said they dont believe that but some of his blood riders stayed with dany and some left. They are considered blood of his blood. Perhaps the symbolize him...... how ever blood riders are supposed to die with their khal right? The are bound to serve protect and go with him when he dies.... none went with him. The ones who went with danny i guess u can say did so in honor of him.... however the ones who just abandoned and formed their own groups i would think might be considered dishonorable? I may have just contradicted myself and anting to back the blood riders theory. Aw nuts!!! O well im still ganna back it because i cant remeber all the blood rider rules @ this moment

 

[Mesanna]

I tend to agree with Boaz's thoughts that Drogo will not literally return. Given the Drothaki belief that warriors ride in the night sky, maybe it could be something as prosaic as another comet appearing, which Dany will associate with Drogo.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I alao like the thought of the blood rides. Not drogo actually reborn. As u said they dont believe that but some of his blood riders stayed with dany and some left. They are considered blood of his blood. Perhaps the symbolize him...... how ever blood riders are supposed to die with their khal right? The are bound to serve protect and go with him when he dies.... none went with him. The ones who went with danny i guess u can say did so in honor of him.... however the ones who just abandoned and formed their own groups i would think might be considered dishonorable? I may have just contradicted myself and anting to back the blood riders theory. Aw nuts!!! O well im still ganna back it because i cant remeber all the blood rider rules @ this moment

Didn't Jorah kill one of his blood riders? I thought he was trying to get into the tent to stop the rite and jorah fought and killed him... or was that just in the show?

 

[Keebs411]

Didn't Jorah kill one of his blood riders? I thought he was trying to get into the tent to stop the rite and jorah fought and killed him... or was that just in the show?

So i looked it all up lol. I was RIGHT as far as bloodriders should die with their khal.
i was WRONG that some of his kahl went dany. Danys blood riders killed drogos during the blood magic scene. Jorah did kill one he killed drogos BR Qotho. Danys BRs she swore in herself and the pledged after the dragons hatched

 

[Keebs411]

But on the show arnt all her BRs dead now???

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I don't think there is any chance of Drogo actually coming back, but there may be someone or something that might be symbolic of him that will potentially help her win the throne or defeat the Great Other or something.

Speaking of which, after reading quotes and discussion on various websites about Dany's experience in the house of the undying, I decided to break out the book and re-read the chapter. In doing so I found one thing that is both very striking, and that isn't mentioned on any of the sites I was on.

When Dany is talking to the undying, this quote is somehow always missed by the sites dealing with prophesies.

"drink from the cup of ice... drink from the cup of fire"

This quote leads directly into the "mother of dragons, child of three" stuff I mentioned earlier.

How I missed this before is beyond me, but this seems to be an indication that Dany is the prince(ss) who was promised and hers is the song of ice and fire. Aemon said as much before, and the woods witch prophesied that the prince who was promised would be born of the line of Prince Aerys (aka the Mad King) and Rhaella, which fits Dany,who was their daughter.

The first (that I remember) introduction of the prophecy of tPtwP is from Rhaegar, who thinks Aegon is he, but it is entirely possible,and even likely, that he is wrong. Aemon said that Rhaegar originally thought HE was tPtwP, so he obviously isn't to sure about these things, and if he, like everyone else, thought it was a boy, he wouldn't have considered Dany.

Another thing I found in my re-read, was that the undying refer to her as 3 different entities.

"mother of Dragons, daughter of death"
"Mother of dragons, slayer of lies"
"mother of dragons, bride of fire"

if these are 3 aspects of her, they could be in relation to the 3 heads of the dragon. 3 things that she becomes in different stages of her life.

Daughter of Death could refer to the manner of her conception, which was during Roerts Rebellion (where many died) the fact that he father died before she was born and her mother died giving birth to her, which was during a storm, which is generally a metaphor for Bad stuff happening.
Slayer of lies might refer to the time of her life she is currently in, or is about to enter, when she starts kicking ass again and destroys the pretenders who are around her, and the pretendors to the throne.
Bride of fire to me, could mean 2 things. If aemon and Mel are right and AA=tPtwP(=Dany) then her "husband" could be lightbringer, in either a metaphorical sense in that lightbringer isn't a sword, but a metaphor for a perso, or as an actual sword (I am reminded of Asha Greyjoys "husband" which was an axe) OR if Aemon is wrong and tPtwP is NOT AA, the bride of fire could mean her husband is AA reborn, whoever that turns out to be.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

But on the show arnt all her BRs dead now???

I think one might still be alive.The only one that ever has lines in the show, Joqqo or something like that. The show changed alot from the books in season 2 though.

 

[Keebs411]

I think one might still be alive.The only one that ever has lines in the show, Joqqo or something like that. The show changed alot from the books in season 2 though.

that it has but it makes me think that if her bloodriders were supposed to some how represent drogo or part of the prophecy in the books it may be tough to carry that link over if they were killed off int he show.

also speaking of prophecy im still trying to pick through and work with patch face. mel is not a fan and some of his babble ends up becoming true.... his latest @ the wall after the wedding iv been trying to work every possible metephor it could represent being it was one that rubbed mel the wrong way enough to voice her dislike of him

 

[Keebs411]

"Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs"

that was patchfaces last little sing song he gave....

 

[Needle]

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

I think this has to mean three people. Rheagar believes Aegon is TPTWP. If he is speaking to Dany, he is saying Aegon, Dany, and one more. If he is speaking to Elia, he is referring to Aegon, their daughter (Rhealla I think) and one more.

.three mounts must you ride...one to bed and one to dread and one to love...

This may have been fulfilled: Drogo (love), Dariio(bed) Drogon (dread)?
All I got for know!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I think this has to mean three people. Rheagar believes Aegon is TPTWP. If he is speaking to Dany, he is saying Aegon, Dany, and one more. If he is speaking to Elia, he is referring to Aegon, their daughter (Rhealla I think) and one more.

i do think that the three heads of the dragon are people, i just dont think dany is one of them. i think she is the dragon. If Rhaegar is talking to Elia, then yes, he would be refereing to Aegon, Rhaegelle(?) and they need 1 more. But if he is talking to Dany, which I believe he is, then he is not necessarily implying that she is a head of the dragon. Drogo could have been one, (see my first post) Aegon could be a second one, considering he has just been introduced (if he is the Real Aegon) and she needs one more.

I should clarify that I am not saying that this is how it is or has to be,I really have no idea. I just couldn't shake the way GRRM decided to pose the prophecy. Saying the Dragon, singular, has three heads, but that she is the mother of dragons, plural, because she does have 3. It might be that the dragons have 3 heads just doesnt sound as good, but GRRM could have stated it however he wanted, and I can't help but feel he is deliberately trying to side track us with this.

On the other hand, he could be trying to make it simple, and we should just accept the way Dany has interpreted it. Like I said, I dont really know. we will have to see how things turn out.

As for patchface, I think the trouble with him is that he intermingles prophecy and just plain random nonsense. He has definately said some stuff that came to fruition, but the quote above about the mermen feasting on starfish soup seems like plain gibberish. At the least, I can't make anything of it, but then again, I am no expert and can't se into GRRMs mind. who knows what will turn out to be important.

I am going to sift through some patchface prophecies and see what I can make of them.

 

[Keebs411]

I am going to sift through some patchface prophecies and see what I can make of them.

the only one i think i read a theory one was this

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye." rumored to poss be about the red wedding but other then that im not sure i need to reread chapters he comes up in myself for anything else

 

[Young stormlord]

the only one i think i read a theory one was this

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye." rumored to poss be about the red wedding but other then that im not sure i need to reread chapters he comes up in myself for anything else

There is also, "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord." or something similar, said to Maester Cressen.


Personally, I like Jon's prophecies better: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/35633-not-so-important-connections-17.html#post1592991