the Dragon has 3 heads, A discussion on Prophecy

[juleska]

i do think that the three heads of the dragon are people, i just dont think dany is one of them. i think she is the dragon. If Rhaegar is talking to Elia, then yes, he would be refereing to Aegon, Rhaegelle(?) and they need 1 more. But if he is talking to Dany, which I believe he is, then he is not necessarily implying that she is a head of the dragon. Drogo could have been one, (see my first post) Aegon could be a second one, considering he has just been introduced (if he is the Real Aegon) and she needs one more.

First of all, great discussion. Second, your theory that Dany is not one of the heads of the dragon but instead IS the dragon actually helps us with the conundrum of Little Aegon. Until he entered the picture many of us were convinced that Jon and Dany were two of the three heads, and some of us were convinced that Tyrion is a half Targ and the third head. If however, Dany is the dragon, then Aegon, Jon & Tyrion could all be the heads of the dragon....and if your theory that the "heads of the dragon" are not necessarily people who actually *ride* the dragons holds true, that solves the biggest argument against Tyrion being a head of the dragon....that he wouldn't be able to ride one.

I like it. Do more stuff like this.

Also....

I am going to sift through some patchface prophecies and see what I can make of them.

This made me LOL.

LOL!







See?

 

[Tywin]

Does anyone know if we have a thread somewhere on here where we have different prophecies listed? I find mention of different prophecies on the wiki, but I think it would be useful to have them all posted together somewhere so we could compare them against each other.

I'm tracking the following sources of prophecy:
- AA/Lightbringer prophecies as related by Mel
- House of the Undying prophecies
- Moqorro's Dreams
- Nan's Stories
- Wildling prophecies
- Mirri Maaz Duur
- The Dothraki prophecies & the prophecy from the Dosh Khaleen (Stallion that mounts the world)
- Quaithe
- Targaryen prophecies as related by several characters in Westeros(Aemon, Tyrion, Jaime, the pyromancers, etc)
- Three-eyed crow prophecies that we get through Bran's dreams
- Jojen Reed's (not quite) green dreams
- The Ironborn/Damphair's prophecies
- Patchface's ramblings

 

[Tywin]

I just found what I was looking for. Here's an easily searchable page of prophecies:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/

 

[D.A. Madigan]

The Dragon Has Three Heads is supposed to make us think that eventually Daenarys will team up with Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister. I think this may have been Martin's original intention, but so many fans have figured it out that now he's going to go in a different direction (the reason Martin takes so long finishing a new installment of this thing, besides short attention span and sheer laziness, is that he avidly ego scans the internet and every time he reads where some fan has figured out a plot development that he hasn't published yet, he can't stand it, and he has to go back and throw out everything he's already written and figure out something else).

My guess, for what it's worth, based on the utter ******** Martin just threw at us in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, is that he's rapidly backpedaling on the whole 'Tyrion is really a Targaryen' thing, and is instead laying a foundation to reveal that actually, Jaime and Sersei are half Targaryens.

 

[juleska]

Sorry D.A. but what you assert is simply not true. GRRM does not read fan boards and has stated so many, many times. Further, on the numerous times he's been asked if he changes the direction of the story because people are figuring things out too quickly, he's always answered emphatically NO. So unless you believe GRRM has lied repeatedly and in public and on record about this topic *and* unless you have some evidence to the contrary....your assumptions are invalid.

 

[Tywin]

GRRM's statements are always that he doesn't read or care about fan boards, however Madigan's explanation fits the progress of the series much better than the author's own statements.

 

[Ursa major]

Another "prophecy" that bothered me is Miri Maz Duhr's regarding Dany. (if you can call it a prophecy)

“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”

Dany believes that This means 2 things. 1) Drogo will never "be as he was" and 2) she will never get pregnant again, since all those other things are impossible.

In the first read through, this is a likely assumption to make. What bugs me about this "prophecy" is that everyone seems to have forgotten about point 1, and focused on point 2, that Dany can't get pregnant.

I agree that Dany has misinterpreted this.


Mirri Maz Duur has stated four 'impossible' preconditions for Drogo's 'return'. But the four impossible things are impossible for different reasons:

• The sun is never going to rise in the west and set in the east.
• The seas are not going to go dry, unless the temperature of that world increases until it's uninhabitable.
• The mountains are not going to blow in the wind like leaves unless either they're volcanoes and they erupt, or they're eroded into dust over a very long period of time (well beyond Dany's lifespan).
• Dany's womb will not quicken until whatever damage it has suffered (from magic, illness or physical trauma) is healed (which seems to have happened by the end of ADwD; Dany will not bear a child until she takes a lover (or is raped, I suppose, but I don't think that's relevant here), which will only happen when and if she accepts that Drogo is gone forever. This is an altogether different sort of impossibility: believe something can't happen and it might just do so (subject to all the other impossibilities also coming to pass).

So all Mirri Maz Duur said was that Drogo is not coming back, for just about every type of reason; physical, time, belief. What Mirri Maz Duur is not saying is that Dany can never give birth again, although the way she phrases this (all too true) prophecy is designed to make Dany believe that she's been robbed of any hope of any sort of dynastic future.

 

[juleska]

If we accept the events at the end of ADWD as meeting the prophecy.....I assumed that the appearance of Khal Jhaqo was the philosophical fulfillment of Drogo's return. He was Drogo's "blood of my blood", wasn't he?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

If we accept the events at the end of ADWD as meeting the prophecy.....I assumed that the appearance of Khal Jhaqo was the philosophical fulfillment of Drogo's return. He was Drogo's "blood of my blood", wasn't he?

Was he? I can't remember.
Even if the events that we consider to be part of the prophecies fulfillment are correct, there is still one mroe thing that needs to happen first. Dany needs to give birth. "when your womb quickens again and you bear a living child" so I wouldn't expect a drogo-esq character showing up just yet, even if she is preggers.

As for Patchface, he seems to have had a couple predictions that came true. One regarding the Red Wedding
"fools blood, kings blood, blood on a maiden's Thigh. Chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom aye aye aye"

And one that seems to involve Mel's Shadow babies.
"The shadows come to dance my lord... the shadows come to stay my lord"

these have already been pointed out by other forums/threads.

I also found an interesting theory on the Citadel website, originaly posted by" Dracarys!"

"There might be another interpretation, if we consider that he saw visions while drowning, or "under the sea". He might have seen flying dragons among all the other prophetic things, not literally under the sea, but because that's where he was when he saw them."

If this is true, then all of his other little phrases could be given new meaning.

Many of patchafes ramblings begin with "Under the Sea"

"Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers" (dragons?)

"its always summer under the sea. Merwives wear Nennymoans (a type of purple flower, Deff. doesn't grow under water) in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed" (visions of Dany?)

"under the sea, mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs" (ummm...what?)

 

[Eulalia]

Maybe Sansa had purple "flowers" in her hair?

 

[Boaz]

SPOILER ALERT! Drogo's story in AGOT and Jon's story in ADWD.

This may have been fulfilled: Drogo (love), Dariio(bed) Drogon (dread)?

Needle, the problem is that you've got two figurative mounts and one literal, so I don't buy it. Literal would mean that "to bed" could mean an animal... Figurative makes more sense as Drogo "to bed", Daario "to dread", and Jon/Aegon/Gerold/Aurane/Victarion "to love".

to reveal that actually, Jaime and Sersei are half Targaryens.

Now witness the power of this fully operational battle theory! You don't know the power of the Targ side. I don't think he's backpedaling, he's laid the groudwork since the revelation of Cersei's and Jaime's incest at the beginning of AGOT. This was the direction all along, it's just becoming more and more obvious.

So back to Arsten's OP, could Drogo come back? Don't the Red Priests have a prophecy of the legendary hero Azor Ahai being reborn? Could Azor Ahai Reborn equal Drogo Reborn? Many think Jon is AAR, if so he's already a strong candidate for a dragon head, a half Targ... and Drogo Reborn... plus, he may literally get reborn soon.

Arsten, mermen, starfish, and crabs may refer to the heraldric devices of noble houses. I'm not familiar enough to know them all... but I think the Manderlys have mermen on their shields.

Big Bear, I like your take on the psychological barriers for Dany's conception. And mayhaps she will come to the conclusion that Drogo (love, protection, safety) will not return. If she's able to correctly interpret the figurative meanings behind Quaithe's prophecy (the Mummer's Dragon, the Pale Mare, the Sun's son, etc.), then she may be able to decipher Mirri Maaz Duur's prophecy as figurative also.

Someone posted the following ideas and I apologize for not knowing who or where...

The sun (Quentyn Martell) rose (was born) in the West (Dorne) and set (died) in the East (Mereen).

The sea (the Dothraki Sea) ran dry (came to an end and turned to desert on Dany's journey to Qarth).

The mountains (the Mereenese pyramids) blew (were set in turmoil) in the wind (by Rhaegal and Viserion.

Now, I don't like the third as much as I like the first two.

Edit: Uh, could the mountains blowing in the wind refer to cities or principalities that end up being the victims of the sellsword company called The Windblown?

Oh, and Dust in the Wind by Kansas is playing on my iPod right now.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

SPOILER ALERT! Drogo's story in AGOT and Jon's story in ADWD

Arsten, mermen, starfish, and crabs may refer to the heraldric devices of noble houses. I'm not familiar enough to know them all... but I think the Manderlys have mermen on their shields.

This was my first thought, and you are right, that the Manderlay's are Mermen. (i had to look it up though) And the Borrell's, lords of the sweetsisters, have the sigil of a crab (Godric Borrel is the one who was saying Ned whelped Jon on a fisherman's daughter). There is a link between the two. Davos lands on the sisters and is freed by Godric, (who gives him the same speach he gave Ned, "if you loose, you were never here") Davos then sails on to meet Manderly, who similarly imprisons, then aids, Davos. you could say that The Crab served Davos to the Mermen, but How is Davos a Starfish? ... or a soup?

Edit: Uh, could the mountains blowing in the wind refer to cities or principalities that end up being the victims of the sellsword company called The Windblown?

Oh, and Dust in the Wind by Kansas is playing on my iPod right now.

THAT! is a really good question. I was just reading up on the Windblown at your prompting, and I found a site that was talking about Quentyn and company being "blown in the wind like leaves" during their trip to meet with Dany (which included joining the Windnlown) but I don't think they are supposed to represent mountains. The windblown are currently, or will soon be, on their way to take Pentos, so the mountains could refer to the Magisters of Pentos, one of which is Illyrio, who could be described as a mountain of a man, especially if he was lying down.

I don't think it is a coincidence that "blow in the wind" is part of a prohpecy and The Wondblown are a group of mercenaries. I'll bet there is a connection, I just don't know what it is.

Good on ya Boaz

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

http://headtrip-honey-asoiaf.tumblr.com/post/18905610130/patchfaces-prophecies

Found this list of patchface quotes and possible interpretations.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Melisandre’s face darkened. "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood."

Mel regarding Patchface. I just wanted to put it up here because I think this forshadows an important roll that Patchface is going to fill. I am positive we have not seen the last of patchface's prophecies.

Anyway, back to Dany, I had some further thoughts about "the Dragon has 3 heads" More and more I think that Dany is the Dragon and that the 3 heads will be 3 other people. My newest interpretation is that the 3 heads could be 3 heads of her army. 3 Generals if you will. If this is the case, I think theres a good chance that the 3 heads of the dragon will be:

Tyrion- who will lead the mercenaries in her army, as he has such alot of experience in dealing with Mercenaries

Victarion- as her Admiral and leader of her nautical power

BFS- who will lead her unsullied and the knights he is training, as well as any other allies she may recieve in Westeros. I can't think of a single knight who wouldn't want to follow Ser Barristan Freakin Selmy into battle.

Anyway, just a thought. This current interpretation doesn't fit into my previous thoughts that the 3 heads of the dragon will embody the other three prophecies about her regarding the Fires, Mounts and Treasons.

 

[Stribog]

This was my first thought, and you are right, that the Manderlay's are Mermen. (i had to look it up though) And the Borrell's, lords of the sweetsisters, have the sigil of a crab (Godric Borrel is the one who was saying Ned whelped Jon on a fisherman's daughter). There is a link between the two. Davos lands on the sisters and is freed by Godric, (who gives him the same speach he gave Ned, "if you loose, you were never here") Davos then sails on to meet Manderly, who similarly imprisons, then aids, Davos. you could say that The Crab served Davos to the Mermen, but How is Davos a Starfish? ... or a soup?

Onion knight - onion soup

 

[Dalmvern]

I have enjoyed this board without contributing for long enough, I figured I would weigh in my thoughts and share a theory I have been kicking around with some of my friends.

First of all, I im intrigued by the whole idea of Dany not being one heads, but the dragon itself. I have always thought that Dany, Jon, and Aegon were the heads, but I definitely saw the merit of Tyrion being included as a possibility. I have long suspected that the "heads" of the dragon will be the commanders of her battlefronts.

This leaves Jon as the head of the Nights Watch fending off the Others, one of them in Westeros to reunite the Seven Kingdoms, and among the Slave Cities continuing Dany's war on slavery.

Now, here is the theory I have been kicking around...and its not really new but it puts a bit of a spin on the existing theory. I think Jon Snow is Azor Ahai returned. There are plenty of other threads saying why this is a possibility, but my theory revolves around Lightbringer, being both a figurative and literal sword. Yes there is lots of evidence supporting the Nights Watch as being Lightbringer, but remember the Stark Greatsword, Ice? And remember how when the Lannisters reforged the Valyrian Steel it turned a shade of red that the smith was not able to change? I believe this sword is Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes. Now how the sword will make its way into the hands of Jon Snow, I am not sure. Does Jon need both swords (the one from Tommen and the one from Brienne) to be reforged again into a single blade for Lightbringer to be whole? My guess is yes, and he will have it reforged into a ******* sword, like Longclaw.

Anyone else have any insight on this?

 

[Eulalia]

Do you suppose the dragons could be the seahorses and the mermaid blowing the seashell could be Dany?

 

[juleska]

Hi Dalmvern and welcome. Only issue I see with your theory is the fact that the two swords have to become one again, and end up on Jon's hand. Whereas Longclaw is whole and in his hand now. Well....not *right* now, but....you know what I mean. I do like the idea of Jon ending up with Ned's sword again though.

 

[Keebs411]

Do you suppose the dragons could be the seahorses and the mermaid blowing the seashell could be Dany?

i like this idea!!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Do you suppose the dragons could be the seahorses and the mermaid blowing the seashell could be Dany?

Good Call! hadn't occurred to me, but I, like keebs, quite like it.

Welcome Dalverman!

I like your theory. It has all the elements, and the Redness of the blades the lannisters forged could very well mean something.like Juleska said, the only issue is how the blades are going to get back in Jon's hand. One is with Brienne (or at least we believe) which means it could be on its way north at least. But Doesn't Tommen have the other? I suppose they could be forged back together with Dragon Fire, which would be the fire AA pulls the sword out of. and being forged with Dragon Fire, it might gain some extra powers...

Like I said, all the elements are there, I'm just not sure how they will be brought back together. thought thats not to say they wont be.

One thing I do really believe is that none of the swords we have seen so far will e lightbringer. I think it will be either a new sword, perhaps forged from 2 old ones, or perhaps just found, in asshai, by Dany...

we shall see.