A place for horse related questions

[Sapheron]

There's a chance there was a little exaggeration going on there, Ursa. As strange as my habits may be, I draw the line a little before greasing up goats.

And I think that's for the best.

I can help with camel questions though. Yes, camels are generally scary for horses. Unless they've been raised around camels, or spent a considerable amount of time getting used to them a horse will generally not go anywhere near them. Neither will many other animals. In fact, even elephants and hippos are intimidated by a camels.

As for why, first up, it's the smell. If you ever end up near a big group of camels you'll understand. They don't stink (well, they can, oh god how they can... but they don't always), but they do have a very distinctive smell that is naturally just a little offputting. A lot of other animals don't quite understand so they tend to keep their distance.

Secondly, the noise they make. A big herd of camels makes a terrible racket, and some of the sounds they can make are really odd. A few minutes on youtube could probably show you sounds you're surprised a living thing can make, let alone a camel.

Third, and I admit this one is more opinion than fact, I think a major problem horses have with camels is probably the size. As a person on foot, a big chunk of the problem facing cavalry is the simple fact they tower over you and weigh more and that's scary. In the same way, a camel, especially with a rider, is considerably higher up than most horses and their own riders. No one wants to run into someone bigger than them. Or an entire army made up of guys that are bigger than your guys.

Fourth, camels are grumpy as hell and if they get even a little annoyed they're a nightmare to be around. They kick, they bite, they shout at you, they manage to spit in your mouth when you open it to talk to people, and they generally go out of their way to spread their bad mood to everyone around them.

All of that said, they can be very friendly as well. If you give them a scratch they'll affectionately slober on you all afternoon.

EDIT: When I said bigger I meant in height. In terms of weight, from what Kylara has said it sounds like most horses are similar in weight to a dromedary. Bactrians are heavier, but still not as heavy as big work horses.

 

[enternamehere]

I have two questions:
1) How long can horses survive without food and almost no water?
2) What kind of temperatures can a horse withstand (my characters are walking through an ice desert-thing)
Thanks

 

[Venusian Broon]

I can help with camel questions though.

Great technical thread - and I think it's allowable to discuss other four-legged transport/riding animals, so big thumbs up Sapheron.

Would I be right in saying S. that if you were in a desert, other that it 'looks right', that you'd be a fool to choose anything other than a camel to ride and they can be amazinging 'fast' - in that they can really grind out big distances day and night in terrain that other animals would just give up in? (I think they can gallop pretty fast too, but they probably wouldn't be doing that for long periods of time in the middle of a hot, dry desert)

I believe they beat horses hands down in such terrains and are the essential pre-mechanical desert raiding accessory.

 

[Kylara]

Question one is a very difficult one! So many variables: size of horse, breed of horse, workload of horse, where horse lives, why it has no access to these etc, but I can try!

Well on average a horse drinks roughly between 5 and 15 gallons a day (give or take), more if it's hot and they have been hard at work all day sweating, less if they are cool and not doing much. Horses need water. So I'd say probably 3 days plus and you'd have a sick and probably dead horse, less if you are working them.

How would your horse not be getting food? If it was loose it would eat grass. If it was shut in a stable at a yard then most people passing would chuck some hay/haylage over for them...If you are in a desert with no access to an oasis, or you didn't bring enough food, then again, probably your horse would be dead (with lack of water) after a few days. If it just has no food, then it will start deteriorating as the body starts burning muscle and fat until your horse can barely stand an dies, depending on water access and how little food it can take between a week (little to no water) and months before your horse dies, less before it is unrideable...but what scenario were you thinking of? That might make it easier to work out...

Temperature wise horses are pretty good at regulating with temperatures. They just need to be able to maintain a body temp of 38C. Horses possess responses to freezing temperatures that help them to survive in the wild. they will grow long thick coats for insulation and their metabolism will slow down in cold weather. Wild horses survive better in cold temperatures than domesticated ones...Horses were bred for cold! You find them in Siberia, Mongolia, Tibet, and northern Canada...so cold is easy for them!

Heat wise horses in the heat will search out shade and will not do much at all other than try to stay cool. Domesticated horses often get hosed down a lot and given extra water and kept in the shade. They can survive pretty hot areas but they become much less active the hotter it gets...

Ice-desert, well there are a few things you have to worry about with ice walking - the main one would be lameness from cut and frosted frogs and you would need to do some research on cold winter care for horses - also depending on your horse breed, you'll have some better suited than others

 

[Sapheron]

Great technical thread - and I think it's allowable to discuss other four-legged transport/riding animals, so big thumbs up Sapheron.

Well, so long as moderate highjacking isn't minded by anyone else. If it is, I'll beg for mercy later...

On that note, does anyone have experience with elephants?

Camels... well fast isn't really how I'd put it. Naturally they're happiest plodding along at maybe 4-6mph. A fast walk for a human. They can keep that up for a couple of days without pause if necessary, and will do it regardless of temperature, dust storms, carrying 300kg on their back, and a lack of food or water. Potentially in spite of all of those factors simultaneously. Even in such a condition, the rider would probably be the first to collapse from exhaustion.

At 10mph they could keep it up for at least 12 hours, though you'll be putting your face and feet at risk of teeth and high velocity saliva if you try to make them do it in extreme heat (45 degrees C and plus) or carrying very much.

Go up to 20mph and you're looking at four hours, maybe. An hour if conditions aren't good.

Over short distances, they can reach 40mph with a single rider, which I think is quicker than most horses (bar racing horses, obviously). Pursuading them it's worth it is difficult. They can go four or five miles like that before they need a breather, though the breather can still be at 10mph.

As for choice of desert mount. Yes, a camel is easily the best choice. Even today, a land rover can often find itself being given real competition by a group of healthy, well trained camels in some circumstances. As long as they're treated right, they'll go a long way quite quickly, carry a huge amount, and the failing point of the whole thing is still usually the riders rather than the mounts.

EDIT: As Kylara talked about horses going without food or water I thought I'd just add a comparison. A camel needs about the same amount of water as a horse; 30-40 litres per day. The difference is that a horse must drink that each day. The camel will drink 100-150 litres one day, and then be able to last off that for the next two or three. Only after that do they get thirsty, and so can last two or three more days, potentially, getting weaker and moodier as time goes on. I honestly have no idea how long they can go without food, but several days seems to cause them minimal, if any, discomfort.

 

[Kylara]

Sure four legged mount questions are all good, unfortunately I know little about elephants...more about camels, but I'm mainly a horse/cat person :wink:

 

[prizzley]

Ice-desert, well there are a few things you have to worry about with ice walking - the main one would be lameness from cut and frosted frogs and you would need to do some research on cold winter care for horses - also depending on your horse breed, you'll have some better suited than others

In The Plains of Passage by Jean M Auel they made leather boots for the horses (and the wolf) when crossing a glacier.

 

[Kylara]

Yes, I'm still dubious about that, even though I know you can buy things like this this I'm not sure how happy they are when wearing them...I've seen horses with things like this (but bigger) when they have infected/damaged feet and are on box rest so that the foot stays clean, but they always walk funny, like a cat with a piece of tape on it...so unless you bring your horse up on them...you'll end up with unnatural gait until they get used to it, but for short term it would probably work...

 

[Gumboot]

Another thing that might be useful for people is the types of horses in Medieval society, as horses were distinguished at that time by type or purpose rather than breed. Here's the more common ones (from cheapest to most expensive)

Hackney
Hobby
Rouncey
Jennet
Courser
Palfrey
Destrier

 

[allmywires]

Ta for the camel stuff, Sapheron. I don't have experience with elephants but I wrote about them in the my WIP so if anyone wants to contribute, I will have my notepad at the ready...

(I don't know why but I love the idea of war elephants. Probably a hybrid of the awesomeness of LOTR's oliphants and how they were simply just used to trample people in battle. I like that kind of simple elegance. Also I'd want to sit on a howdah in battle, lording over all the peons on foot).

 

[Kylara]

One thing I do know about elephants is that if they spook or get frightened they will turn around and just run...not great if that is over your army...

 

[Venusian Broon]

Elephants were the brilliant gold, diamond encrusted bling of ancient armies: expensive, impressive, feared by man and horse alike, difficult to stop, rare (Unless you were in North Africa or India) but overall a bit unreliable and as Kylara states probably just as likely to stampede through your army as much as the intended victims.

Might be able to dig out a few facts from my library if there are any questions (but I'm not a pachyderm expert in any way, so kid gloves please )

 

[Sapheron]

I'll start with horses, seeing as they're the main topic here:

Gumboot's list of horse types is interesting. How exactly are the types classified? I assume primarily by size and build sort of thing, going from little weak thing for use by peasants up to mighty warhorse used by the aristocracy. Is that right? Or is it a little more complex, as everything always seems to be?

Does anyone have any idea how much a horse's armour would weigh? I was thinking eastern cataphract style stuff. I'm guessing a hell of a lot, based on my experience of human sized mail, but beyond that I really have no idea.

Also, does that thing where you twist a horse's lip and they stop moving really work? I've had it explained to me by a friend before and heard of it at tv at some point, but it would be cool to get a confirmation. Although I fully accept that some silly things are real, most silly things are just people being silly.

For elephants:

Can anyone comment on how resistant to damage an elephant is? A big nerd rage moment for me was seeing arrows to the legs bothering mumakil in the films and Legolas killing one with a couple of arrows in the back.

I was told once by a man I can only describe as a professional ranger (in the fantasy sense of the word) that big crocodiles can be near enough bullet proof from standard small arms. The bullet will go in about an inch and stop, and it isn't enough to cause any lasting harm.

Perhaps crocodiles are tougher than elephants. That seems unlikely to me, though.

Assuming they aren't, I can't imagine an arrow doing much more than make them angry. I can't see slashing weapons like swords or blunt clubs type stuff doing much either. Surely a big spear would be pretty much minimum level for elephant killing? Anyone have any idea?

 

[allmywires]

Assuming they aren't, I can't imagine an arrow doing much more than make them angry. I can't see slashing weapons like swords or blunt clubs type stuff doing much either. Surely a big spear would be pretty much minimum level for elephant killing? Anyone have any idea?

I used trebuchets against the elephants in my WIP, and according to Wikipedia their thick hide protects them from musket fire and arrows, as well as slashing weapons. Cannonfire would take down an elephant.

In fact I'll just quote:

War elephants had tactical weaknesses, however, that enemy forces often learnt to exploit. Elephants had a tendency to panic themselves: after sustaining painful wounds or when their driver was killed they would run amok, indiscriminately causing casualties as they sought escape. Their panicked retreat could inflict heavy losses on either side. Experienced Roman infantry often tried to sever their trunks, causing an instant panic, and hopefully causing the elephant to flee back into its own lines. Fast skirmishers armed with javelins were also used to drive them away, as javelins and similar weapons could madden an elephant. Elephants were often unarmoured and vulnerable to blows to their flanks, so Roman infantry armed some sort of flaming object or with a stout line of pikes, such as Triarii would often attempt to make the elephant turn to expose its flank to the infantry, making the elephant susceptible to a pike thrust or a Skirmisher's javelin. The cavalry sport of tent pegging grew out of training regimes for horsemen to incapacitate or turn back war elephants.

Also somewhat hilariously, 'war pigs' were used to frighten war elephants:

One famous historical method for disrupting elephant units was the war pig. Ancient writers believed that "elephants are scared by the smallest squeal of a pig", and the vulnerability was exploited. At the Megara siege during the Diadochi wars, for example, the Megarians reportedly poured oil on a herd of pigs, set them alight, and drove them towards the enemy's massed war elephants. The elephants bolted in terror from the flaming squealing pigs.

 

[Venusian Broon]

For elephants:

Can anyone comment on how resistant to damage an elephant is? A big nerd rage moment for me was seeing arrows to the legs bothering mumakil in the films and Legolas killing one with a couple of arrows in the back.

Assuming they aren't, I can't imagine an arrow doing much more than make them angry. I can't see slashing weapons like swords or blunt clubs type stuff doing much either. Surely a big spear would be pretty much minimum level for elephant killing? Anyone have any idea?

Ok, so I asked for it. I shall try and summarise and keep it short

Essentially you had to devise specific tactics and weapons against elephants as any hit from a normal anti-human/horse weapon on the elephants thick hide was usually barely felt by the animal (There are sensitive spots of course: eyes, trunk etc..., but generally speaking these are small targets at a distance).

Many of the methods were really not about elephant slaying but for making the animal turn around and flee in panic (and hopefully disrupting their own army). Or to try and disable it.

1) Deploy archers, slingers and javelin troops to throw lots of things at elephants to make them panic - although even a coordinated onsalught a well trained elephant could resist.

2) Soldier armed with heavy chopping weapons like axes or machairas (single-edged weapon with a heavy, curved blade widening to it's end) for cutting the animals legs or tendons or hacking at the sensitive trunk.

3) Caltrops or ground traps were used as elephant feet are very sensitive to pain

4) Fire in many forms was used: flaming arrows, torches, naphtha grenades. Again to reiterate it was to try and make the animal turn and panic, not kill.

5) Anti-elephant arrows. Normal arrows were usually no more than a pinprick (The olliphants in the LotR films with their skin covered in arrows is a reasonable view) In reality accounts of our normal elephants with 50-80 hits and surviving after a battle can be found. The Indians, having elephants in abundance therefore developed an all-iron arrow quite early in their history (shaft and arrow head in iron) - called a naraca. The shaft could not be broken off and therefore the wound would be more likely to hurt the animal incessantly. Plus it could carry a powerful incendiary charge, which added up to increased pain for the animal.

6) Special anti-elehpant troops were developed that generally had armour and shield with sharp spikes - to protect against the trunk, plus the shield could act as a simple caltrop. As well as I'm sure, being trained to use a few of the weapons above.

7) The Romans at the battle of Zama developed a battle line with gaps at the front, so that the (sensible) animal would follow the lines of least resistance and pass through the main army where they could then be dealt with behind by specialised troops.

8) Loud noises could be enough to panic elephants (again used at Zama)

9) Pigs squealing was used on a number of occasions - yes really - as this appeared to unnerve Elephants (they utilised the poor pigs by coating them in tar and setting them on fire). It did however help produce one of the worst units in the computer game Rome Total War.

10) Ballistic missiles from things like scorpions and ballistas were generally effective. When cannons came on the scene that made elephants (thankfully for them) redundant.

 

[Kylara]

Gumboot's list of horse types is interesting. How exactly are the types classified? I assume primarily by size and build sort of thing, going from little weak thing for use by peasants up to mighty warhorse used by the aristocracy. Is that right? Or is it a little more complex, as everything always seems to be?

Does anyone have any idea how much a horse's armour would weigh? I was thinking eastern cataphract style stuff. I'm guessing a hell of a lot, based on my experience of human sized mail, but beyond that I really have no idea.

Also, does that thing where you twist a horse's lip and they stop moving really work? I've had it explained to me by a friend before and heard of it at tv at some point, but it would be cool to get a confirmation. Although I fully accept that some silly things are real, most silly things are just people being silly.

Okay I will try here: Types were mainly classified by a mixture of breed and purpose, so heavier breeds would be used for eg for both ploughing and heavy war horses, but in the HW breeds, there would be a separation into destrier breeds and plough breeds. So mainly horses good for that use would have corresponding breeds that were good at the job and by clasifying by job they encompassed many breeds...


Not sure about armour, but if you search for reenactment people who use horses they should have information on that, or historians...

Lastly that is called twitching and is effective up to a point. it calms horses allowing you to do things to then you couldn't normally do; like pulling their manes, clipping, sheath cleaning, sometimes for the farrier. However with some horses it isn't enough to calm them (my old pony for eg used to have to be sedated to clip him and pull his mane) and you also shouldn't twitch for too long. You can ear twitch as well but that can cause damage and is frowned upon.

Can be very effective though for doing certain things. you need to get it in the right place and also varying degrees of tightness...The way it works is you get some string/rope or a twitch (connected to a stick or something) and put the loop around their top lip. Then twist it until they start chilling...

 

[Sapheron]

So it does actually work? How strange.

Next time I see a horse I'll probably get an unstoppable urge to try it and end up getting my hand bitten off.

 

[Kylara]

Haha it should do. It doesn't work very well on some horses, but I'm sure next time you see a horse you can ask its owner to show you how to twitch it :wink: they go all droopy...

 

[Gumboot]

I'll start with horses, seeing as they're the main topic here:

Gumboot's list of horse types is interesting. How exactly are the types classified? I assume primarily by size and build sort of thing, going from little weak thing for use by peasants up to mighty warhorse used by the aristocracy. Is that right? Or is it a little more complex, as everything always seems to be?

The types are classified primarily by how the horse is used rather than breed or appearance, although certain types did tend to lead into certain appearances. The ones I've listed (which go from cheapest to most expensive are

Hackney - a general riding horse bred for its high trotting action.

Hobby - an agile, lightweight horse favoured by skirmishing soldiers.

Rouncey - a general utility horse. Commonly ridden by poorer knights. Wealthy knights would provide rounceys for their retinue. Because they were faster and lighter than the heavier war horses, sometimes calls to war would specify rounceys.

Jennet - a small, docile riding horse, favoured for noblewomen and children, also used by the Spanish as a war horse

Courser - a strong, fast horse, and the most widespread war horse, also used by nobles as a general riding horse and for hunting.

Palfrey - an extremely expensive riding horse, used by the wealthiest nobility as a riding horse, bred for their ambling gait, making them more comfortable to ride. Knights or lords wealthy enough to own a destrier would use a palfrey as their non-battle horse. Palfreys could cost as much as a Destrier - the equivelant of a high performance sports car today.

Destrier - the ferrari of horses; known as the "great horse" although that was probably more to do with its cultural importance than any significant size (destriers are thought to have typically been between 14 and 16 hands). Destriers are distinguished by very powerful hind quarters and a strong neck, capable of incredible acceleration.
Although thought of as a "war horse", Destriers were incredibly rare because of their extraordinary cost, and were really more suited for the tourney ground - the more rugged and general purpose courser was preferred for actual warfare. A good Destrier would cost a fortune - easily the equivelant of $100,000 or more today.

On top of this there was the usual pack mules, cart horses, draught horses, and so on.

Does anyone have any idea how much a horse's armour would weigh? I was thinking eastern cataphract style stuff. I'm guessing a hell of a lot, based on my experience of human sized mail, but beyond that I really have no idea.

It would be very unusual for full barding to weight more than 70lb, and that's tournament armour - battle armour would weigh much less.

Assuming they aren't, I can't imagine an arrow doing much more than make them angry. I can't see slashing weapons like swords or blunt clubs type stuff doing much either. Surely a big spear would be pretty much minimum level for elephant killing? Anyone have any idea?

I think you have to take into account different types of penetration power. A crocodile and an elephant might not take much harm from a 9mm pistol round, but that's a far cry from a high velocity rifle round.

Most medieval arrows would actually have vastly more penetrating power than a pistol round. A longbow or a good compound bow would be comparable to a high velocity armour piercing round, if not superior.

 

[Kylara]

This is what Destriers tended to look like (This is actually a Fresian breed wise) and this is a cool picture of how they can be trained to smash things and lash out with their front legs/hooves...