A place for horse related questions

[Sapheron]

That's a handsome looking horse. All the flowing mane thing going and all.

Gumboot: Thanks. That's informative stuff.

Barding... well, I expected it to weigh more than that I think. 70lbs doesn't seem much for a horse worth of mail.

When I've gone into the wilds I'd have been laughed at for carrying a 9mm. There's a lot of nasty things out there, ranging from kidnappers to lions to crocodiles, and you want better than a 9mm for any of them. A .338 rifle is what I carried, though luckily I never used it but for practise. Our guide assured us that if a real big crocodile came at you you're unlikely to cause any real harm with such a weapon and you're better to throw it instead. the crocodile, being thick as they come, tries to snap it up, and that gives you a few seconds to reach the nearest tree and, I quote "at that point you don't so much as climb as **** a brick so hard it teaches you to fly".

 

[HareBrain]

Thanks, Sapheron. I'll never go out into the Cambridgeshire fens again.

 

[Sapheron]

Fortunately my everyday life in the fens is much safer. The only danger around here is backwards farmers.

 

[The Judge]

I'm resurrecting the thread as I have a horsey question, please.

So, I have a horse, biggish and heavy-ish as its usual rider is a brute of a man, and it's bred for hunting if that's relevant (medieval type hunting, not to hounds). It's hooded/blindfolded otherwise it will panic at where it's going, it has a body slung across its saddle, and a stranger smelling of blood trying to lead it for a mile or more -- and it's not very happy with any of these things.

Firstly, I've been assuming that as it's hooded it has to be led, but could it be ridden as normal if it can't see where it's going and it doesn't know the rider to trust him?

Secondly, if it can't be ridden, then the stranger -- our hero -- has not only to lead it by its rein thingummies, but has to keep in physical contact with it at all times, and the more contact the better, but can a horse be led, if the person isn't in front of it pulling? Is it feasible for him to have his arm somehow around its neck and still make it go where he wants? Will it try to bite him? Is it likely to succeed? And would a quick slap to the nose sort it out?!

Thanks for all and any help!

 

[Kylara]

OK first off:

Don't ever pull a horse along. It will stop and go backwards. you lead a horse by standing at or slightly behind the shoulder and it will walk along next to you.

Second:

Not many people blindfold their horses because after a while they start to get uneasy, you can use blinkers so that it can only see a small bit in front of it and not to the sides. Blindfolding makes horses very uncertain of things and they either walk with mincing delicacy and slowly or take large lunging leaps to try and see again - either way is dangerous. But if you can give me the reason why it won't like where it's going then I might be able to suggest a more plausible way. A blinkered horse can be ridden.

Thirdly:

Slinging things over horses is fine, just have to make sure it is tied on securely

Fourthly:

The smell of blood might freak it out to begin with, but if the thing smelling of blood takes a little time to calm the horse and let it "get to know him" then it should be fine after a little while - better as the blood dries. Horses, unless really well trained to be used by only one person (hard to do) are fairly chilled with whoever happens to be with them at the time - I know a few ponies that have a dislike for certain people but they tend to have reasons. Kindness and understanding (and tidbits :wink: ) will get you anywhere with a horse!

Fifthly (goodness this is getting a little in depth!):

Reins can be pulled over the horses head to be lead with (unless you have a martingale that is) and so will act as a stronger type of lead rein (as it has the bit). Most people travelling about tend to have actual lead reins/ropes with them so you can just clip that through the bit rings or the rope will be attached to a headcollar which is put on over the bridle. So basically, you have a horse on one bit of "string" or two (lead rein/rope vs bridle reins)...of course a double bridle would give more bits of "string" but I doubt it has a double bridle


Sixthly (is that even a word?!):

Why does your hero need to be in contact with the horse? Also it is unlikely to try to bite him, unless it is a grumpy horse that bites everyone - it is doubtful that unless in the short space of time that it knows this new human it is treated terribly (and I mean really badly) it would bite him if it doesn't already have the nasty biting everything habit.

Seventhly?

Slapping a horse on the nose? Don't. Ever. It makes them afraid, can cause them to rear, or shy or become head-shy (which you really don't want), and some horses can turn on you quick if you start doing that. Their noses are very sensitive...a negative "no" is probably the best way forward if it does something you don't like. Positive praise is also good, horses really respond to that

Eighthly:

Leading a horse by its neck is possible (I have to do that with the old retired pony in the field which sometimes decides it doesn't want to come in and will kick you - so you grab round the neck and run with him trying not to get trodden on and trying to slow down...however, draping an arm over his neck when he's in a good mood and he'll go with you anywhere, or he'll follow you whether you're touching him or not) but you can lack brakes (watch out for your feet!) and if the horse is well trained then it may not move because you are in the wrong "move forward" position.


I can't believe I managed to turn two questions into eight responses! Goodness...sorry for the length. If I lacked sense or you have more questions from my answers feel free to ask

 

[The Judge]

Wow, that's great, Kylara. Thanks enormously for such a comprehensive reply and so quickly!!

I can't avoid the hooding bit -- it's a bit complicated, but basically they won't be walking on land (what can I say -- it's a fantasy!) but if it can't see, it won't realise that, but if it could see, it would likely freak out, or so the plotters think, anyway, and they can't risk it. Thinking about it, I forgot to say that it might be spooked by what it can sense there, which will make it even harder to handle. If it's lunging and being generally awkward, that's fine -- I don't mind making it difficult for the hero!

Re the touching, that's very necessary for the magic to work, but it looks like that won't be a problem if I'm understanding your answer right -- if he's standing at its shoulder then he can spare a hand on it somewhere, even if he's not hanging round its neck.

It won't have a lead rope as it wasn't travelling about -- it was only going for a short ride into the city and back, so it's just the ordinary bridle reins, so thanks for confirming how they work. And he's rushed for time so he can't try and get the horse to like him -- definitely no tidbits available -- and once it's done the necessary mile, it's dog food (only joking... possibly...)


NB I'd never hit a horse really -- the nose thing was tongue in cheek!

 

[Abernovo]

Kylara said everything, so I'll just add that if you're stood by a horse's shoulder, you can also reassure him or her by talking. The horse will pick up on your tone.

 

[The Judge]

Ooh, good idea. Thanks, Aber.

 

[Kylara]

That's ok then...You'd be surprised at what horses are willing to go through - I once had a horse that would point blank refuse to go in water and rivers and things like that and then as soon as we got him in he would splash about and refuse to get out...totally possible to spare a hand to be resting on the shoulder or hanging on the neck in a leisurely fashion.

The only problem with hoods was that it really is only for very short periods of time - in order to get a horse into racing blocks or a trailer and tend to only be used when the horse really trusts the handler, so if the hero does absolutely nothing to gain the trust of the horse, then blindfolding it may not be the best idea - I'd go with blinkers/blinders which get rid of peripheral vision - once the horse is used to the weird fantasy bridge thing I have envisaged in my mind heh then it should walk alright with you. Blindfolds are really only ever used in emergencies and never for prolonged periods of time - you'd be better of dealing with the skittish horse and working through it either mounted or in hand until it relaxes and accepts its new surroundings as normal...also blindfolding horses tends to make them more nervous than blinkering - especially so as your hero isn't known by the horse - it is very much a thing used based on trust...

 

[Gumboot]

So, I have a horse, biggish and heavy-ish as its usual rider is a brute of a man, and it's bred for hunting if that's relevant (medieval type hunting, not to hounds).

This doesn't answer your questions (which have already been well-answered), but if you want to stick with this you might want to rethink the horse a little.

Firstly, horses used in hunting (coursers for the rich and rounceys for everyone else) weren't "biggish and heavy-ish" but rather, quite lightly built, powerful, and fast (i.e., bred for speed).

Secondly, bigger horses are actually able to carry less extra weight due to the square-cube law. The reason people don't ride big cart horses is because while they're immensely powerful (and therefore good at pulling stuff) they weigh so much that their bone structure is dedicated to holding up their own mass, and adding weight to the horse will quickly overload them.

The very best for carrying large amounts of weight (relative to body mass) are actually hardy high-country ponies.

 

[Lucky_Lola]

Awesome thread, thanks for the info!

Not being a horsey-person, I was one of 'those' fantasy writers for many years. The late-arriving additions of a friend who breaks TBs and another who straps for a racing stable corrected that! The fact that the trot is pretty much the most economical and (in the long run) the fastest gait for long distances made me do a lot of re-writes!

Anyway, great stuff, keep it up! Will pop in here next time I remember the holes in my knowledge

 

[Boneman]

Great thread, this. And a question about feed: in my fantasy world concentrate doesn't exist (think medieval Europe) so in travelling long distances, what can I feed my horse? I will pass through villages, so carrots and apples and whatnot will be available, but is grass enough, on the road? Should I carry feed? In the forest, can they eat hazlenutnuts/acorns? Are they partial to any greenery? Thanks in advance.

 

[Kylara]

BM you'll still have concentrate - oats, and barley and whatnot...feed types are just split into concentrate and roughage - basically hard feed and hay/haylage...apples and carrots are ok, but not recommended as a sustaining diet - think of them more as a nice succulent cookie that you get every so often...you would be carrying feed, even if it is just an oat/barley/chaff mix. However if you're not going far and you have a native pony or it's not really working too hard, then loose tying it in some grass at stops and over night is probably ok - the issue there though is the quality of the grass - too low and it's not good for sustaining the horse, too high and you may get a grass sick horse if you continue to let it eat high quality grass...but most people travelling long distances would have concentrated feed with them in a saddlebag...if you want to know more about different types of feed for different workloads of horse then give a us shout

Oh and don't let your horse eat acorns - poisonous lil buggers those!

There are also a fair few bits of greenery that are poisonous to horses, but a quick google should bring up the charts - maybe try for pony club/BHS poisonous plant chart/list

 

[The Judge]

Thanks, Gumboot. I didn't mean shire-horse size, as I knew they weren't suitable, but I was thinking of an animal a cousin of mine rode which was huge (Mind, I was only about 12 when I saw it, so anything much over Shetland pony size was huge...!)


Boneman -- definitely not acorns! They are poisonous -- which is one reason why they put the pigs in the Forest in the autumn to eat the wretched things.


EDIT: just realised forgot to say thank you for the extra bit, Kylara. They don't have the wherewithal or the time to make blinkers, so it's got to be the hood, I'm afraid -- and this is definitely an emergency! I might think about taking the hood off after a couple of minutes, though, and seeing what results.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Don't ever pull a horse along. It will stop and go backwards. you lead a horse by standing at or slightly behind the shoulder and it will walk along next to you.

Ah - interesting. Can baggage ponies be led?

 

[Kylara]

Yes. All ponies and horses can be led (unless they're unbacked but that's another story!) pulling them is something that they don't like and will get you nowhere - 500kg plus not wanting to move - you're not going to move! Baggage ponies are generally tied to one another on longish ropes and you have people walking along at their sides, that way they follow the horse in front (who is being nicely led by person at the front walking along next to his shoulder) and they are happy to keep walking because all the other horses are and there is a comforting friend walking along next to them...Once you have a lot of trust with your horse then you can hold the end of a lead rope and walk a couple of feet in front and your horse will follow you - sort of like a herd and how baggage ponies work, but you do need some trust for that and the rope has to be slack, as soon as you put pressure on it the horse will try to move backwards, away from the pressure.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Riiight. So you can't normally walk in front of docile ponies and literally pull them - the lead horse will still need someone by their side?

 

[Peter Graham]

So you can't normally walk in front of docile ponies and literally pull them

Kylara's responses in this thread are excellent, but to take this point a little further - you couldn't really pull any untrained animal that you couldn't physically pick up somewhere it doesn't want to go. It's not just horses. Cows, pigs and sheep are just the same - the trick is not to force them to go to a particular place, but instead to convince them that they want to go to a particular place. This is usually achieved by going with them and (if pigs or sheep are involved) having a feed bucket or other bribe to the fore.

I will pass through villages, so carrots and apples and whatnot will be available, but is grass enough, on the road? Should I carry feed

Again, Kylara's response is good for all animals. By about this time of year, the grass has very little nutrient left - and what little it has will be offed by the first frost. Even when the grass is good, grazing animals need shed loads of it to get sufficient nutrition. Feed is expensive and heavy - if you are going any distance and feeding supplement, there won't be much room for other baggage. Of course, you don't always feed processed supplement. Those big piles of swedes you see by the roadside are destined for feeding stock over the winter, as are the barns full of fodder crops - things like oats, kale and notably hay, which has to be stored dry. The big cattle feed is "cake", (aka silage), which is basically wet and half fermented grasses.

Horses need hard feed to keep them in tip top operating condition, I believe. There is a fine passage in the memoirs of Sir Robery Carey (who was responsible for keeping justice in the English West March when Cumberland was violent border country in the 1590's), in which the local muster confronts a Scottish raiding party. The two sides are evenly matched in terms of numbers, but the Cumbrians are on foot whereas the Scots are mounted. You'd think this gave the raiders a significant advantage, but Carey's men saw it otherwise and implored him to give the command to attack, stating that their enemies were only "mounted on weak, grass nags - all they could get on a sudden". In other words, the Scottish horses had been out to pasture and were badly out of shape as a result.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Kylara]

You wouldn't want to pull ponies along and as Peter says the trick is convincing them to go somewhere. Walking at their shoulder a coupla feet off is fine you don't have to direct their every footfall, but if there is no-one at the front the pony is liable to stop and eat grass or just wander off in any direction. Some people lead baggage ponies on horse/pony which is fine, because the ponies are following the horse/pony...

Hard feed volume depends greatly on workload - I have a retired pony who gets no hard feed in the summer and a handful of pony nuts in the winter so he can have a supplement (for his feet) but he does get a lot of haylage in the winter when he is stabled overnight and about 3 slices of hay in the day which we chuck into his field...however a horse under a high workload will need more like an 80-90% concentrate (hard) feed and only 10-20% roughage compared to the 100% roughage the retiree gets There are other reasons do feed more concentrate like bad-doers but that is a little more complicated than you have asked!

Also thinking more on the blindfold issue - it wouldn't really work, you'd be best off with blinkers. the blindfold would work for maybe a couple of minutes at best with a trusted handler. With someone the horse doesn't know it is likely to make things harder all round. Blinkers would restrict vision to the very front and would probably work better...

 

[Montero]

Just like to check out a few horse "things" I've heard/experienced down the years. And a question.

Why do horses like mints? (Including extra strong mints). And is there anything else like that they like?

In terms of weight carrying capacity of a horse I heard it was related to the thickness of the leg bone. Correct?

You shouldn't take an unshod horse faster than a trot on a tarmac road or it will crack its hoofs. Correct?

Having a saddle on is better for a horse than just a blanket when it is being ridden. Correct?

Horses can't see directly in front of them out to about 20 feet. Correct?

And do you know anything about mules? Just curious as they were the pack animal of choice in the British Army in India (Rudyard Kipling sort of info).