A place for horse related questions

[Kissmequick]

That was partly my point -- tactics has a much bigger impact on how things go

A sole charge by cavalry without backup on pikemen probably won't work (but it might depending...) but like I say, it's not beyond believability that both the horses would do it (at Kirkholm, the winning cavalry were very well trained) and it would work, given the right circumstances.

ETA: There's another battle I'm thinking of which was a more face to face succesful charge, but blowed if I can think of its name!

 

[ctg]

Drinking and riding. If the rider has taken a few drinks and isn't clear on where to go, does the horse know? Is there a law that bans one from riding horses with alcohol in your blood?

 

[The Judge]

The law isn't like drink-driving, where there's a specific limit of alcohol -- under that you're OK, over it you're not. It's "being drunk in charge of" as per the report I linked to before, and that's a subjective test -- ie does someone look and act drunk. So someone could be pie-eyed, but if the cops don't realise, he won't be charged. It's not so much the quantity of alcohol drunk, as the effect on the person with the horse.

Re the horse knowing where to go, I've read stories of horses on eg a milk round walking the route and stopping at the right places while the carter sits back, because the beast has learned it. I think I'm also right in saying that a horse can usually find its way home if it's left to its own devices, again if it's used to going on one particular route all the time.

 

[Venusian Broon]

(at Kirkholm, the winning cavalry were very well trained) and it would work, given the right circumstances.

I notice that the wikipedia account of it states: "although the Hussars, in particular, lost a large part of their trained battle horses." which you would expect, I suppose. Just a shame that these, no doubt magnificent animals, were just a means to an end for human wars

ETA: There's another battle I'm thinking of which was a more face to face succesful charge, but blowed if I can think of its name!

I'm not completely sure, as I don't know much about exactly what happened, but the relief of Vienna by the Polish King in 1683 against the Turks - which had the 'largest cavalry charge in history'* might count. Keeping it in sort of SF/Fantasy, this battle was described in Neal Stephenson's Quicksilver. 20,000 men on horses in one charge. Difficult to imagine - but I believe the charge of the Rohirram in the Return of the King was set up to have about 6,000 horsemen in the movie - so try and imagine a charge three times bigger!

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*I'm sure the Mongols or many of their descendants might disagree - as their armies were hundreds of thousands strong. But they didn't really charge into their enemy, as they were more fond of mounted archers and all sorts of wily tricks.

 

[Kissmequick]

Re the horse knowing where to go, I've read stories of horses on eg a milk round walking the route and stopping at the right places while the carter sits back, because the beast has learned it. I think I'm also right in saying that a horse can usually find its way home if it's left to its own devices, again if it's used to going on one particular route all the time.

Horses do like a bi of routine -- when I worked at a riding stables, it was often extremely hard to get the horses to change the route, because they knew where they were going dammit! My father has some anecdotal evidence re a horse taking its owner home from the pub when said owner was in no fit state to find his own feet...

I notice that the wikipedia account of it states: "although the Hussars, in particular, lost a large part of their trained battle horses." which you would expect, I suppose. Just a shame that these, no doubt magnificent animals, were just a means to an end for human wars

To be fair, for a lot of generals in history, humans were also just a means to an end, though slightly harder to replace in the same sort of numbers very quickly.

 

[Brian G Turner]

So far as I understand it, the point about cavalry charges is not to take men from the front where their spears are pointing, but instead charge into their flanks or rear where the spearmen would be dependent on smaller weapons for defence - and where they would be easily at a disadvantage to mounted troops.

There's an exhibit in the Royal Armouries showing how Swiss Pikemen minced a cavalry charge due to the long reach of their pikes.

I could be wrong.

 

[ctg]

Thank you Your Honour and KissMeQuick. It verifies me the point that horses are intelligent, stubborn and smart species. They understand us the way we don't. They know what to do with that drunken old dude that just managed to get on her back, without slipping on ground couple of times.

But it's also mystifying to me that how these people manage to stay on top of the horse, when there's every chance to fall on the ground etc. So in a way the horse is a better vehicle on getting home than your legs or anything that you might be able to ride.

 

[Kissmequick]

I don't know if knowing the route from the pub you go to often back to your nice stable with its feed in counts as smart Some horses certainly are, especially if you take into account their natural instincts and train accordingly. (you don't really need to train them to go home -- they tend to do that naturally after a time!)

But it's also mystifying to me that how these people manage to stay on top of the horse, when there's every chance to fall on the ground etc

If you ride a lot, it's going to be little different from trying to walk home when squiffy. It might not be quick or graceful, but you manage.

 

[The Judge]

And if a drunk does fall off, he's likely to be so relaxed the fall wouldn't do as much damage as someone all tensed and braced for it.

After I'd written my reply last night I had to go looking for the scene in Cat Ballou where Lee Marvin is drunk on top of the horse. Seen in isolation it wasn't quite as funny as I remembered, but the sight of him leaning against the wall -- and the horse leaning against it, too, with its legs crossed, is still priceless. http://www.moviefanfare.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Cat-Ballou-Horse.jpg

 

[Hex]

There are stories from Sutherland (and possibly elsewhere -- I don't know) of drunk men falling off horses, hitting their heads and dying.(*) Though, I think they weren't ambling quietly home on those occasions.

I have a question -- horses scream, don't they? Does anyone know what it sounds like?

(*) Which is the way my great great I don't know how many more greats grandfather is supposed to have died.

 

[The Judge]

I've not heard it myself, I'm pleased to say, but in my fantasy I've just referred to it as screaming and shrieking, so I'm hoping that's right.

 

[Montero]

PIKES

Having done 17th century re-enactment, including military, I've been out on a battlefield with pikes, cavalry, cannon and musket. Now, there were rules of "safe play" - but other than that it was as authentic as it could be made.
Pike blocks when not in a line of battle and cavalry approached, could form a static "hedgehog" - clump in tight in a round, drop points of pikes, people in the first and second rows brace butts on ground against their feet and lower the point to threaten horses (but for safety the points were a bit high and the cavalry kept back a little). Musketeers could burrow in for safety and theoretically could fire - but didn't unless kneeling out the front - as too close to their neighbours for modern safety standards. This clumping was done in the period.
If you had enough pikemen, there was a tactic of the period of the block keeping marching, with pikes lowered on all sides, but not seen it done.

CAVALRY
In the modern re-enactment it was all sword waving. In the actual period a lot of horse pistols were used - big, long barrelled pistols, that could be fired from horseback into massed bodies of troops. The main charge at that period was open form - an open galloping line that belted up, wheeled in line (hence the open space between horses) fired into the crowd as they turned round and galloped off to a safer position to reload and return. Reloading a muzzle loader on horseback would be a taxing task - no idea if they really did it, or if they had a line of loaders further back and handed off to them.

HORSES
I had the ground view of the horses - usually tried to be at a safe distance. On one occasion there was an accident where a horse panicked and decided to gallop off the field. It aimed for a gap between two pike blocks and kept going despite the rider pulling on the reins. The two blocks were closing in on each other and what was an empty gap when the horse started its run, was filled with a row of 6 blokes when the horse galloped through there and bowled them over like skittles. I was told at the time that horses can't see immediately in front of their noses - for maybe as far as ten feet or more, so as far as it was concerned it was running into clear ground between flanking objects (the pike blocks).

Crusader KNIGHTS
I've read that the horses of the crusades were a weapon in themselves and a right bunch of vandals that would kick anything they felt like. Saw an article that the horses of the Camargue these days are the nearest you'd find to a crusader horse. So not the nice, modern, bred to be relatively well behaved as far as I know, recreational horses.
Kind of suspect that truculent, kicking, biting battle field horses would be desirable - anyone comment on this?


RECOVERY TIME
I came back to look at this thread to add this bit - and then saw all the pike stuff where I could contribute a tiny bit. Just reading Rosemary Sutcliff "The Sword at Sunset" where after a march followed by a battle the men and horses needed time to recover - rest, eat, before marching on. About three days is what she had.
Anyone comment on that?

 

[Kylara]

Sorry been away for a bit, popped back for a quick little reply!
The kicking an biting is good if trained - also rearing and spraying with the frnt hooves is good - you train the horse to do these so it isnt someone being tanked around on a crazy horse but a team where the rider tells the horse to rear and lash out with hooves and stamp on people, bite and kick out - definitely going to have a good effect on the people you are in the middle of...anyway got to dash, have lots more I could say but jot enough time!

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just another quick question about horses:

How much training does a horse or mule require to pull a light cart?

Would it be impossible to expect a baggage or riding animal to be able to pull on in tracers?

 

[Kylara]

Well...That is a tricksy question Brian.

Firstly training a horse to drive (anything) is a fairly lengthy process which starts off with weeks of long reining, followed by weeks of long reining with a tyre and chain to get the horse/pony/mule used to the noise of/and pulling something. Then after they are doing well with that you need to get them in a training carriage (usually small and lightweight, one axle etc) for a couple of weeks (with a driver and a backstep on a safety rein and not actually on the backstep - not normally one on a training carriage anyway). Then you can start them in a proper carriage (multiple axle, articulated, whatever vehicle you plan on using with them) with a driver and again the backstep walking by their head with a safety rein and slowly over the weeks moving back until they are able to stand on the backstep and then it takes a few weeks before they are comfortable with that and stop spooking at things, they learn how to corner properly, to respond well to people getting on and off (things being put on and off) and other mundane things like that.

If you want a pair or team then you can skip the training carriage part and put your animal in with an older experienced one in a pair carriage, and then put it in a team (3 or more, usually 4).

Also you usually break the horse/pony/mule to drive when they are young, as the older they are the less likely they are to take to it. In addition to this you have to make sure that the person driving knows what they are doing (much harder than it looks!).

As a quick example, over the last 6 months my driving friend and I have broken in two rising 6 year olds to drive and we have only just got them going as a pair (been out with them about 5 times) and have just started them on water elements (ie going through puddles and small streams). We haven't been able to get them out everyday recently, but they were long reined pretty much everyday and in carriage every day/every other day for a few weeks. You can shorten the time like I said before by putting them to with a more experienced animal.

You do get Ride N Drive horses/ponies - they tend to have been youngsters when trained (our ponies are lead rein, show and drive ponies). Theoretically any horse/pony/mule should be able to pull something but it is all about the training - if you have an older horse (8/9 and above) then they are more likely to disagree with it and be dangerous. It can be very scary for them because it looks frightening, makes scary noises, is heavy (especially weird for them going downhill), the poles can feel restrictive etc, and the person is making noises behind you for you to move forward - it is all done off of the voice, whereas riding has leg aids etc driving just has the voice.

Well that turned into a hug post and my apologies for that. I would say that if you had time to put in the training then yes they could. If the baggage animal was trained to drive when it was little then it should be fine. Same with the riding animal, but like with all things the skill would have to be kept up. I would say that you could probably train an animal in a couple of months to drive if you were doing it full time for someone and someone just wanted it broken to drive and then they would bring it on, but if you were doing it for yourself it would take you closer to 4 - 6 months to a year depending on what you were wanting to do (eg we are going to be eventing with the ponies we broke in over the summer in single, pair and tandem - which is why it is taking us longer). If just a single then probably 3 months and you would have a working young animal.

If you want more info on any of it or a specific bit do say and I'll try to help.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Many thanks for the reply - and very much answered my question, I think.

Basically, if I have a couple of placid baggage mules, it sounds as if I cannot just hitch them to a light wagon to pull slowly. I'm going to need new - and trained - animals ...

I think I can solve that.

 

[Kylara]

Not least because you need a proper harness and I doubt you'd have that hanging around! I'm glad it was helpful, looking back at it it is very long!

 

[Brian G Turner]

Oh, there would have been a harness - someone else was going to claim the animals - so the characters would have had to hitch their mules to it. However, the characters can simply buy the existing animals, I think.

 

[Montero]

I seem to recall there is difference in pulling load between harness (as in just leather straps) and a collar made to fit an individual animal.

Incidentally - horses and collars is an small important point in King David's Spaceship by Jerry Pournelle.

By the way - from what I've read, bullocks are much steadier at pulling a load and coping with traffic than horses. A lot less training required.

 

[Kylara]

Harness and collar do pretty much the same thing, but a collar tends to be better at distributing the weight, whereas with a harness if it gets very heavy then the breastband can put a lot of pressure on the chest and gullet (which can be uncomfortable). The bigger the horse the more likely a collar is purely for fitting reasons