Dissect this passage

See, I really like this Iris Murdoch excerpt. The quick appraisal of women, in what felt like a church setting to me. Then, the sudden change to focus on a detail, in this case one particular woman, who stands out, partly because she has changed her appearance by altering her hairstyle.

It's the sudden change from overview to almost microscopic inspection that stops the reader to yell out 'Pay attention!'. Depending on how it's written, it could be a description by a devoted lover, the ripping apart of a rival or the simply the realisation that amongst the daisies, a tall poppy is blooming.

A change of pace.
 
See, Mouse, wasn't so hard, was it? ;) And you definitely don't need an A-Level to do it!

And Dora's not attracted to her, just jealous! It's good that the general (but kind of likeable) unpleasantness of Dora comes across in the text. She's silly and vain and ignorant but you can't help feeling a little sorry for her.

simply the realisation that amongst the daisies, a tall poppy is blooming.

This basically encompasses Catherine's whole story arc in one sentence!

edit: It's not exactly a church, they're in a religious commune.
 
I don't think you were, Mouse. The same thought about attraction crossed my mind. It's hard to judge in context when it's a small excerpt. All the individual points, such as Catherine's vanity were totally valid.
 
The last line about being withdrawn from circulation is a chilling and brilliant way of showing the jealousy. I think it encourages you to go back and reread the whole paragraph in that light. (I assume Catherine is about to join the commune?)
 
I enjoy it because all I want to do when I'm reading a book is to feel like I'm there, immerse myself in it. You have to concentrate on it because it's a somewhat outdated style of writing - Victorians weren't known for their snappiness, after all - and it's wallowing in its own opulence, like Lord Henry. I think a long and flowing sentence is a particular taste - lots of people don't like this style, and Wilde's in particular. But the whole beauty of Dorian Grey would be lost if the writing wasn't like that, if you understand me. The writing is what makes the book interesting to me.

And welcome, Kickerz :)

Thank you. I think I will enjoy this site.

Well I guess it is a good thing we all have different tastes. I often find this particular fact interesting. Form vs subject matter. For me, form is something I will play with but, it is usually just a tool I use to create my SM. For me, it is all about what the author is saying in the story. I don't like to confuse the story with the message that is being given in the form of the writing. Does that make sense?

I'm with you. I find it too dense, but I asked someone who I know is a big Oscar Wilde fan. They are a more patient reader than me, and enjoys taking a moment before moving on, that it moves at a pace to let him do that.

I read it and get overwhelmed and therefore switch off, it's too much. So, I think it's as much about our individual reading style as it is the writing, maybe.

I think, too, as TJ says, this is evocative of an era, and that I do get.

I think of it like an artists appreciation of a painting vs a viewers. An artist might notice the paint strokes before he does the bowl of fruit. Message through forms. Generally I find them less interesting. My mind, my soul, my stomach wants to know what that juicy apple and pear tastes like!
 
No no no no! There isn't a right answer - unless like me you've got the book open in front of you - and even then it's only interpretation.

There is a wrong answer if that's not what the author meant! Can I blame the author? ;)

The last line about being withdrawn from circulation is a chilling and brilliant way of showing the jealousy. I think it encourages you to go back and reread the whole paragraph in that light. (I assume Catherine is about to join the commune?)

I thought she was either going to kill her or kidnap her.
 
I am genuinely curious though. Why do you enjoy this paragraph as much as you do?
In fact, as I said, I don't much enjoy it -- rather I can appreciate it for what it does -- and for my taste the whole book is too florid and over-ornate, but that is the point. The story is one of louche aristocrats and opulence, so his style here reflects that. Plus he was writing for a very different audience at a very different time.

It does force the reader to really focus on what he is reading. Hard to read this while doing something else at the same time!
Ahem! *looks at new member over the top of her pince-nez* Take down 100 lines: "An aspiring writer should always focus on what he/she is reading." :p

Does the long flowing sentence really outshine a more concise and segmented style?
It can do, yes. In other situations it can read as overripe rubbish (think I just mangled my imagery there...). For me, it's important to be able to vary one's style. For instance, my fantasy is set in the equivalent of Renaissance Italy, so I've gone for an archaic feel to the writing, which would be utterly out of place with my SFs, but even within the books then there are differences between the characters so with one would-be poet in the SF I allow myself longer sentences and more imagery when in his POV.


Can I pick something still copyrighted?
I think if we restrict it to a couple of hundred words at most and give the citation as amw did, we should be fine.

(I'm not entirely sure what 'undulating' means, I'm guessing wavy).
Go and look it up!
 
Undulate
1.
To cause to move in a smooth wavelike motion.
2. To give a wavelike appearance or form to.

So wavy. Like I said!

K, I won't post all of this then, but as I'm not a huge fan of description I rarely remember them. This one, I've always remembered:

They didn't seem like individual birds or even individual dots of black against the blue. It was the flock itself that was the individual. It was like a single piece of cloth, cut in a very complicated way, that let it swing through itself, and double over and stretch and fold in three dimensions without ever tangling; turning itself inside out and elegantly waving and crossing through, and falling and rising and falling and rising again.

(From Lyra's Oxford by Philip Pullman)
 
There is a wrong answer if that's not what the author meant! Can I blame the author? ;)

Blame away - besides I coincidentilly just read an article that claims Murdoch was a flaming lesbian, so maybe she was unconsciously expounding her attraction to her ;)

Like I said, no wrong answer...apart from the kill/kidnap thing. That was wrong. :p
 
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They didn't seem like individual birds or even individual dots of black against the blue. It was the flock itself that was the individual. It was like a single piece of cloth, cut in a very complicated way, that let it swing through itself, and double over and stretch and fold in three dimensions without ever tangling; turning itself inside out and elegantly waving and crossing through, and falling and rising and falling and rising again.

Starlings?
 
I dunno, I just like the comparison to cloth! Maybe it works because everybody knows what cloth/clothing moves like, and hopefully everyone's seen a huge flock of birds all flying together. I like all the 'ands' actually. They make it read very enthusiastically.
 
Ahem! *looks at new member over the top of her pince-nez* Take down 100 lines: "An aspiring writer should always focus on what he/she is reading." :p

Don't look at me like that!
 
They didn't seem like individual birds or even individual dots of black against the blue. It was the flock itself that was the individual. It was like a single piece of cloth, cut in a very complicated way, that let it swing through itself, and double over and stretch and fold in three dimensions without ever tangling; turning itself inside out and elegantly waving and crossing through, and falling and rising and falling and rising again.
The repetition of "individual" creates balance in that first sentence, and to me that repetition and of the other words, heightens the idea that these are many identical creatures forming one whole. Note he says "dots of black against the blue" not "against the sky" -- the use of the colours balances again, plus "blue" as a word is more evocative.

And we have two shortish sentences setting up, followed by one long one -- and that long one goes on and on, giving an impression of neverending movement mimicking the birds' flight that would have been lost if he had stayed with short abrupt sentences.
 
Ah! I need to start paying attention to colours too, I think.
 
I've always felt that description gives more insight into the describer than it does the described. I don't feel that mouse was wrong when she thought kill/kidnap, just that she over jumped the conclusion. To stop and minutely analyze the change made to a persons whole character is not the move of someone without motives/interest in that person to begin with. and as her minute gives complement begrudgingly and criticism freely to take the last thought of relief that said person wont be around much longer to a context of being the one to remove them from their present life (permanently or temporarily) is only a matter of over stepping what the character giving us these descriptions is capable of doing, not feeling.

As part of my job I read a lot of doctors chart notes. There is no emotive context to these notes, they are about a persons health not a commentary on their personality. At first I only noticed how a persons life shaped their health, something I had always known and found fascinating, but the more I learn about writing, the more I learn about the way I read things and soon found that I was getting to know the doctors I worked for by the kind of notes they gave. The words they used to describe the ailments they were notating soon told me more about them than their patients, and gave me a feel for their opinion of their work.
I have the good fortune to be able to compare my assumptions of their character to themselves, which I could never do with fictional characters. (one simply does not run into literary characters where I live. made me sad for much of my life actually) In some cases I found I was wholly wrong, and in others that I was more insightful than I had thought. That, too, shaped how I read their notes.
Of course for reasons more than law I keep what I learn to myself and employ my faulty memory heavily over the details of the peoples lives I am intrusted with, and find it interesting the balance between comfort and discomfort they have when I have trouble remembering details such as their name and birthday.

One thing I have started trying is to reread what I write from different perspectives than my own. Find out what insight I am giving away about myself and my opinions when I think I am presenting something unbiasedly. Check the mood I am in by the tone of descriptors that come to mind.

I love the way that language offers us many ways to describe something so that we can convey, not just a sense of what it is, but a sense of how we feel about what it is that it is to us.
In the OW section it has been pointed out that the pacing set gives it a languid feel, that the way things are described foreshades the characters that will inhabit the set. By slowing the pace one feels that one is walking slowly through a place drinking in all the sights scents and sounds of it.
Again in the paragraph AMW put up the slowing down to give attention to detail gives a sense that the narrator of this detail is distracted by it, that she has taken more than just a passing glance or glossed over view of the thing she is looking at.

I would agree that settings need to be as carefully attended to as characters, because it is a kind of character. But like a secondary or tertiary character, one that sets up the story and moves it along without taking up much of the spotlight.
Something that can be accentuated with succinct as well as loquacious descriptions, provided both are concise to the feeling one wishes to create.

I feel that wordy descriptions fail when they fail to give insight and character to the whole of the situation they are describing. Why should we care that the trees are sailing away in twilight, except that it gives us a sense of loss? Why do we need to know of the gardens outside Basil's studio, except that they play a part in shaping Dorian's life?
These are examples of good writing not because they are a decadent delight for a rapacious imagination, but because in being so they add depth and character to the story they are within.
 

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