Can the hero be a villian?

And sometimes your hero isn't a hero at all, merely the protagonist.

I think people get "hero" and "protagonist" mixed up. The protagonist can be anybody, good, bad, or in between, so long as he is the focus of the story.

Stories are more likely to pull readers in if they have an emotional connection to the protagonist -- either to sympathize with, or to hate with a passion. But if a character is hateful, they need to have a sort of gruesome fascination about them. They can't be hateful in petty ways. It has to be something big, or they're just unpleasant to read about. Some redeeming quality, or if the character occasionally does something good or kind -- because he can, because it doesn't cost him anything or interfere with his bigger plans -- can add interest, because it will make him unpredictable, and leave readers in suspense about what he will do next.

There are so many stories where readers end up rooting for the villain instead of the hero (against the writers intentions) is because the hero is one-sided and predictable, and the villain is more human. But there is a danger the other way if we set out to make the bad guy the protagonist, because if he is too one-sided in his villainy, readers will become more interested in one of the good characters.

But for the original question: Where does the hero stop being the hero or even an antihero? That will be different for each reader. For me, it's not if he sometimes does unforgivable things, it whether or not he forgives himself. If he has no regrets, if he doesn't question what he's done, then I stop wanting to read about him. Horrible actions and a self-righteous attitude about them don't appeal. Besides, if a character blames himself, I, as the reader looking at it from all angles, am more likely to mentally argue in his defense, to think of all the reasons why it wasn't so bad. If he justifies himself, then I take the opposite side. His rationalizations sound weaker. I want a character to own what he has done and not pass over it glibly.
 
For me, it's not if he sometimes does unforgivable things, it whether or not he forgives himself. If he has no regrets, if he doesn't question what he's done, then I stop wanting to read about him. Horrible actions and a self-righteous attitude about them don't appeal.

Teresa, do NOT read the new Lawrence Block!
 
People love a villain as long as he has a trait they can identify with - just look at the popular success of shows like Dexter & Breaking Bad...

Too far...? Anything involving deliberate suffering of innocents
I would say, that's when you'll lose them
 
"Perfume" is a fantastic example. What a unique story. "American Psycho" too, also one of my favorites. Yes, they can be done well, but you have to walk a very fine line. Great challenge though. I heard some agent say once that she'd like to read a story where a white supremacist was a sympathetic hero. Now there's a challenge!
 
It is television so probably a bad example but what about Dexter? A show about a serial killer member of law enforcement.
 
Isn't one of Joe Abercrombie's characters on the psycho side (or am I thinking Brent Weekes?)
Warrior type that when he reaches beserker he kills anyone standing too close, even allies and kids?

And for villain as hero

Flashman books.

Flashy's not villainous, just realistic and honest, (in his memoirs only, of course). He doesn't TRY to do bad things, he just doesn't try to stop others from doing them either, nor does he protect anyone but himself (and maybe Elspeth once but she's his meal ticket) and he makes no bones about it.
 
It is television so probably a bad example but what about Dexter? A show about a serial killer member of law enforcement.


That is just sick and twisted.
It really pisses me off.

There are no redeeming factors for a serial killer.
For some sick bturd to make one out to be some kind of sympathetic character on a television show is revolting.

They are a cancer on society.
 
There are no redeeming factors for a serial killer.

What if the only people they kill are serial killers/people who have killed for no justifiable cause? That's kind of the premise of Dexter...

Even then, as stated above, your protagonist doesn't need to be a hero (and Dexter isn't).

They DO need to be compelling.
 
I think it's good if a hero has a few "shady" moments here and there, at the very least, since I think that would add to their realism. No person goes through life without dark moments, no matter how virtuous they are. For example, if a hero learns that their loved ones or hometown have been harmed, one could perhaps forgive them for wanting to take their fury out on something.
As for the where the limit is, I think that depends of the character's motives. If a hero murders a farming family in the belief that it needs to happen, for whatever reason, then a reader may sympathise with this. If the hero kills them for the sake of killing them, or for greedy reasons, then no, it would probably be seen as a completely villainous thing.
I think it all depends on how your character justifes the actions they commit.
 
That is just sick and twisted.
It really pisses me off.

There are no redeeming factors for a serial killer.
For some sick bturd to make one out to be some kind of sympathetic character on a television show is revolting.

They are a cancer on society.

I think Dexter is good as it plays on the whole "they deserved it" underbelly that runs through society... He 'only' kills murderers & only when he is completely 100% sure - he is definitely existing in a hypothetical grey area as effectively it isn't THAT different to the fact the US still has the death penalty. If anything Dexter is a more justifiable concept as a lot of the people are current and ongoing risks to society, whereas the death penalty involves people already incarcerated...
 
I think Dexter is good as it plays on the whole "they deserved it" underbelly that runs through society... He 'only' kills murderers & only when he is completely 100% sure - he is definitely existing in a hypothetical grey area as effectively it isn't THAT different to the fact the US still has the death penalty. If anything Dexter is a more justifiable concept as a lot of the people are current and ongoing risks to society, whereas the death penalty involves people already incarcerated...

Matle I respect your opinion but disagree, I also apologize for my poor choice of words.

In a society where we see more and more random violence committed by individuals against innocent bystanders, I think it unforgiveably irresponsible for shows like Dexter to be played to the general public as 'entertainment'.

I also think your comment illustrates my point.
Vigilantism is its own grey area however Dexter isn't even this.

He uses the excuse of some kind of twisted spin on vigilantism to indulge his own perversion - murder. We soak this in from the idiot-box and begin to rationalize this behavior as somehow justified or moral because, well, they deserved it.

Dexter becomes Judge, Jury & Executioner which itself is a slippery slope then we add his motivation which is not to better society, but again to satisfy a despicably depraved perversion. He is a sick man and I belive we we become infected with his sickness as voyeurs not just accepting this behavior as morally justified but as passive participants emotionally engaged in the same activities.

And then we wonder how, why this stuff happens in real life.

Does art reflect life?
Does life reflect art?
Or some symbiotic combination of the two?
 
Ok, fair points, but it is also unfair to single Dexter out as being the only example of the entertainment industry's lack of morality, as it is far from being the only tv show or movie to glamorise something that should be treated with a little more knowledge and respect (and by respect, in the case of Dexter at least, I don't mean worship, but rather respect in the way I might respect a poisonous spider). United States of Tara, for example, a show that examines the oh so h-i-larious antics of multiple personality disorder, even as far back as the Equaliser, vigilantism at its finest. Not to mention the hero of the hour, a certain chemistry teacher with a unique side business.

'Hollywood' will always go out of its way to be new and fresh, but today's crop of shows are far from the first. And, unfortunately, there are many who would consider Dexter's actions as justified, and guess what? They're about to regain the US presidency.

Incidentally, I don't become infected with Dexter's sickness, as I am, fortunately, able to distinguish between entertainment and real life, like the millions of people that didn't go on a killing spree from playing Halo. Personally, I don't think entertainment does much more than inure people to the horrors of what we're capable of, and its an easy target when we, in our need to have a reason why these things happen, need to blame something for some poor lunatic snapping.

I think the western world's habit of going to war for profit and greed has far more influence on people than a TV show. People are told every day by news services that it's ok to kill others as long as it's justified.
 
Ah no - just to clarify I don't think vigilantism is right & I don't agree with the death penalty either.

My point was that the fact we live in a world where the death penalty is considered a fitting punishment in some countries (not here in the UK thankfully) means that this is effectively a bit of a moral grey area. Everyone who accepts that the death penalty is a fitting punishment effectively condones the actions of someone like Dexter where 'you' as the viewer are completely clear on the guilt of the person he 'executes' (/murders). A guarantee of guilt is more than you guarantee with the death penalty - I think the last person hung in the UK was actually acquitted after his death...!!

The other thing that is interesting about it is that there is a lot of debate at the minute about what makes a psychopath...the mixture of nature and nurture (I think it was the BBC that had quite an interesting documentary on it 6 months ago) and how the two have to come together to 'create' a psychopath capable of murder...the idea that someone who is undeniably a psychopath could be bent to some sort of 'social good' is obviously something people are intrigued by.

Its undeniably perverse though - effectively this a character who kills because he enjoys it and gets a sort of creepy release from it and its one of the most popular TV shows going...!

The other one facing all sorts of award nominations is Breaking Bad! Ignoring the main drug dealer theme the main character is also involved in a number of murders...

If nothing else it it underlines that to the general public 'murder' is not too far for the villain to be the 'hero', which is the whole discussion! People love to be appalled.

Clearly you consider it too far & I have no doubt others share your view - personally I think art imitates life and Dexter won't lead to a jump in the number of vigilante murderers. Could you argue that if someone was a psychopath with murder inclinations that Dexter's popularity would somehow validate their feelings? I guess so, but are they already pretty f*cked up and a risk to society as it stands?!

As to what would be 'too far', I imagine that readers would start abandoning your fictional characters as potential heros once they start gleefully partaking in:
-Sexual crimes
-Anything maliciously targeting innocents
 
That turned into a longer post than expected!!

We have an odd relationship with killing, I find it bizarre that we live in an age where its still considered an acceptable punishment in some places & glorified in war (where a lot of the people who die are innocents - just look at drone attacks!!)
 
From the introduction to On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society:

"Throughout history man has been surrounded by close and personal death and killing. When family members died of disease, lingering injury, or old age they died in the home. When they died anywhere close to home, their corpses were brought to the house—or cave, or hut, or hovel—and prepared for burial by the family.
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And then, in just the last few generations, everything began to change. Slaughterhouses and refrigeration insulated us from the necessity of killing our own food animals. Modern medicine began to cure diseases, and it became increasingly rare for us to die in the youth and prime of our lives, and nursing homes, hospitals, and mortuaries insulated us from the death of the elderly. Children began to grow up having never truly understood where their food came from, and suddenly Western civilization seemed to have decided that killing, killing anything at all, was increasingly hidden, private, mysterious, frightening, and dirty.
***********************************************************************
Yet at the same time that our society represses killing, a new obsession with the depiction of violent and brutal death and dismemberment of humans has flourished. The public appetite for violence in movies, particularly in splatter movies such as Natural Born Killers, Kill Bill, Saw, Friday the 13th, Halloween, and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre; the cult status of “heroes” like Jason and Freddy; the popularity of bands with names like Megadeth and Guns N’ Roses; and skyrocketing murder and violent crime rates—all these are symptoms of a bizarre, pathological dichotomy of simultaneous repression and obsession with violence."
-Grossman, Lt. Col. Dave, U.S. Army, Retired
 
Ok, fair points, but it is also unfair to single Dexter out as being the only example of the entertainment industry's lack of morality,

No, Dexter is not the only example but in my opinion it is one of the most extreme. Also, it isn't so much morality I'm concerned with, or the idea of ones individual character, as it is ethics; the codes of behavior established and expected by and for societies.


They're about to regain the US presidency.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Incidentally, I don't become infected with Dexter's sickness, as I am, fortunately, able to distinguish between entertainment and real life, like the millions of people that didn't go on a killing spree from playing Halo. Personally, I don't think entertainment does much more than inure people to the horrors of what we're capable of, and its an easy target when we, in our need to have a reason why these things happen, need to blame something for some poor lunatic snapping.

Should a person enjoy watching Dexter, I believe to a degree they are infected with Dexters sickness whether they act upon it or not (myself included). They recieve some kind of gratification or satisfaction, probably emotional, from witnessing the acts or action (a passive form of participation).

I am speaking in general, not in specifics and only from my own perspective and opinion. I make no claims of absolute knowledge or authority.

I also want to note, I am not advocating censorship either.
I acknowledge the organizations right to produce this garbage but absolutely assert my right to condemn them for what I consider irresponsible actions.

I think the western world's habit of going to war for profit and greed has far more influence on people than a TV show. People are told every day by news services that it's ok to kill others as long as it's justified.

I do believe murder is justified in rare instances however I absolutely agree with you concerning the U.S. military occupation of sovereign nations at the behest corporate interests.

I also realize my statement concerning justifiable homicide puts me in some ways on a par with Dexter. Which is again, why I think this is a question of ethics (society) not morality (personal character)
 
And, unfortunately, there are many who would consider Dexter's actions as justified, and guess what? They're about to regain the US presidency.

That comment better be a work of fiction Jake!! Surely Mitt Romney cannot get elected?!
 

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