Can the hero be a villian?

The mention of Flashman reminded me of another of G.M. Fraser's creations;

Shamble forward, Pte. McAuslan J., 'The Tartan Caliban,' 'The Dirtiest Soldier in the World,' etc. etc. Dand (Andrew) McNeil, a thinly-disguised Fraser, has the misfortune to lead a platoon - mainly in Libya - just after WW2, which includes a number of characters, including this one (I wouldn't be at all surprised, if Pratchett were inspired to create Nobby after reading these stories).

McAuslan is a drunken, ignorant, boorish illiterate with only the most basic grasp of soldiering (despite his involvement in minor skirmishes like El Alamein, Tobruk, Sicily...) constantly in the guardroom, and frequently having to be forcibly scrubbed by his platoon - yet both McNeil and the reader become rather fond of him, if a little exasperated.
 
The series I'm working on at the moment is largely about the main character's move from a sympathetic underdog to a character who, by the end, has done enough bad things in incremental steps that she cannot be called anything but the villain. Hopefully it will work... but this thread has highlighted a lot of great characters. I'd definitely agree that Joe Abercrombie's characters over all the books of his that I have read do not easily fit into the 'hero' and 'villain' archetypes - probably the part of his writing I love the most. Having characters who come across as, above all, human, is a skill in writing that should not be underestimated.

A great example of a character blurring the lines would have to be Walter White in Breaking Bad. Whether or not he goes too far (or rather the writers go to far) is a great debate. The charting of a character's descent is a great thing if you can keep the reader/viewer's sympathy, though I know as many people who were wanting to see Walter pay for his crimes as those who were hoping (if not actually believing...) that he might just get away with it...

Ultimately I think that as long as your character's motivations and actions seem believable within the context of the world you've created and the personality you've given them, even if those actions may not be what the reader would do themselves, then you're on to a good thing.
 
Hey Rob - I like your idea, it will be interesting to see how you add the "crimes" to your character and see where the tipping point is ... death by a thousand tiny cuts ...

I have always driven myself to write morally ambiguous characters - however, this comes with a word of warning ... agents/critics like to have characters that are clearly distinguishable from each other ... so if everyone is grey then the contrasting become difficult ... when reading a book you distinguish the characters by dialogue/actions ... I find it too hard to clearly differentiate characters through dialogue (e.g., a posh person, a rogue, a hippy, a goth ... whatever) ... so you tend to need a few stereotypes to ensure that not all of the 4,5,6,7 main characters blend into one.
 
No man wakes up in the morning and says "Today I will do evil", instead they set out to make the world a better place.

Can't remember who this but I believe it is related to the banality of evil by Hannah Arendt.

I want my villains to make the world a better place, in their view. Not just evil for the sake of evil.
 
Simple answer... No.

I think it's difficult in fantasy to make a villain into a hero because, in the western world at least, we are all pre-conditioned into the comfortable polarisation of good and evil. You can have a whole philosophical debate about the root of this; whether its biblical or whatever, but in literary terms the 'rules' have been clearly defined by everything from the Brothers Grimm to Disney and Tolkien.

We need to identify with a character, so flaws are ok and even desirable in all but YA literature... but I can't imagine the majority of readers getting behind a true 'villain' ie. a completely morally reprehensible sort, unless it's a story about their ultimate redemption.

Also we want our heroes to triumph over adversity (or at least have a good go at it!) and isn't that ultimately a 'noble' attribute?..
 
What if someone takes the Oscar Wilde approach? Don't categorise by good or evil, but charming and tedious. It's possible for a bounder to be likeable, and an upright, noble sort to be utterly boring.
 
Now you're tempting me to self-plug ;)

Blackadder would be an example of a likeable bounder, I think.
 
thaddeus6th said:
Now you're tempting me to self-plug ;)

Blackadder would be an example of a likeable bounder, I think.
Click to expand...

You're welcome!;)

A good example! But he couldn't exist without the comedy element... And mixing comedy and fantasy (for an adult readership) is pretty blinkin' brave...
 
Depends on your perspective; William Wallace in 'Braveheart' is a villain for the English, but is still heroic
 
So, is comedy the special something that enables a bounder to be likeable? Is it ok to be a filthy swine if you're witty whilst you do it?
 
There have to be redeeming features and wit is certainly one... Otherwise a villain is not a hero - he's just a villain?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
B How is it That Games of Thrones Is As Popular As It is With Its Cast Of Less Than Heroic Characters that Populate The Seven Kingdoms and Beyond ? George R R Martin 34
Brian G Turner Unsung heroes of WWII History 30
B Who Do You Think are Literatures Greatest and Most Compelling Antihero's and Villains ? Book Discussion 30
Extollager The Great Allan Quatermain Read at Chrons -- Weird Adventures of Rider Haggard's Hunter Hero Classic SF&F 60
kaneda Which superhero/villian are you SFF Lounge 46

Similar threads


Back
Top