Redemption

[The Imp]

I was thinking about Fungous' comment about feeling dirty just thinking about Cersei. Certainly Cersei is one of the most unlikable characters in the series, and yet, so were Sandor Clegane, Jaime Lannister and Theon Greyjoy. which leads me to the topic of my post.

Redemption is a theme that weaves its' way though the entire series. We are introduced to the idea very early on when we learn about The Night's Watch, and that ANY man, no matter how evil, no matter what despicable deeds they may have committed, any man can have the slate wiped clean and live an honorable life. Rapist, murder, thief, torturer, it doesn't matter. For me, part of what makes this such a great series is GRRM's ability to have a character starting out by throwing a young boy out of a window in order to protect the incestuous relationship he is having with the Queen, and ending up someone whom we are really rooting for and hoping doesn't die as he rides with the Maid of Tarth into what might be a terrible trap.

I guess the question i am putting up for debate is this- Is any character in aSoIaF beyond redemption, beyond even the magic of GRRM?

Off the top of my head i'd say that Cersei MIGHT be on that road right now. She has certainly been humbled, and she's lost most of the great power she used to wield. Her father is gone, her oldest son is gone, her uncle is gone. She is aging and soon won't be able to rely on her beauty to get her through difficult situations. Cersei MIGHT be redeemable. She might have a conscience.

Ramsay Bolton, is, IMO, beyond even the magic of GRRM, and is beyond redemption. There isn't a shred of humanity in him, no sign of a conscience. There is nothing he could do that would change that. Or is there?

On the opposite end of spectrum is a group of characters that started out as "|good' and are working their way towards "the dark side" certainly Catelyn, Arya, possibly Bran, Sansa, Jon and Dany have all moved a bit from the light and might be in danger of falling into the darkness. Arya might be the likeliest of all.

hopefully this gets the ball rolling. I don't want to draw any conclusions before we have a conversation about this.

 

[southron sword]

Cercei is irredeemable IMO. I never disliked Jaime, and his POV made me like him even more (He is my favourite character). I once liked Theon, but his POV just made me pity him. I honestly don't care what happens to Theon, live or die. Sandor, always been a favourite. He is my type of character, and I hope he goes far (Assuming he can go far). Cercei. I hate her. Even with her POV, it made me hate her more. She is too far gone to turn around and I doubt many people would enjoy seeing that turn around. Almost everyone is counting the days until they see Cersei swinging from the end of a rope. (or being punished by Jaime's (other) sword.)

 

[juleska]

Ramsay is definitely irredeemable. Joffrey definitely was, and his death was no loss. The only person who actually grieved for him was Cersei. Jaime felt a kind of queer detached sorrow about it, not because he lost a son, but because it seemed to represent a break in his relationship with Cersei.

In AFFC, during her POV chapters, GRRM did make me feel some empathy for Cersei. But she seems to be one who squanders any good will she builds up fairly quickly.

I think Cersei loves her children, but not in the same way that Catelyn loved hers. We know that even as a child Cersei was cruel to others, physically harmed those more vulnerable than herself and even murdered her "best" friend. At her lowest point, she feels no responsibility for her actions, and takes no portion of the blame. She thinks only of how to remove herself from the bad situation and how to manipulate others to make that happen. She is a borderline sociopath (and the borderline part is generously given, I think) and I believe motherhood is the only thing that keeps even that at bay. Feeling briefly sorry for her is the most redemption she's like to get.

But if I'm wrong....I'm wrong.

 

[juleska]

Viserys was also irredeemable.

 

[Needle]

To begin I think redemption requires true atonement. To me this is the key to who may be redeemed and who not. I will just address a few for know so I don't right a book!

I agree with jule on Cersei. At times I have felt a little sorry for her, but redemption, I think not. To her everything is someone else's fault, she takes no responsibility for the results of her own actions, it's always because somebody else screwed up. She will atone for nothing. I agree she loves her children but it feels as if even that is coated with a slimy layer, her biggest concerns even with them is what they can do for her. If they can rule the realm and she rules them, she rules the realm. I vote no on redemption for Cersei.

Mostly what I feel for Theon these days is pity. Redemption? Possibly. Theon was a spoiled teenager with the same faults of many teens. Namely, mortality is for others, nothing bad will happen to me because I'm me, the rules don't apply. He returned to his father proud and eager, rightly so IMO, if a little arrogant. He was blown off and belittled. His efforts to prove himself went horribly wrong. To me anyway he has more than paid for his crimes. I think he has it in him to atone, he took a big step when he jumped Jenye off that castle wall, even though it can be said he had little choice. I vote yes on Theon.

This last one is easy! Ramsey will burn in the Hells of all faiths! He has no soul to be redeemed.

 

[The Imp]

I think some of you aren't quite remembering the Jaime Lannister of aGoT. There was nothing likable about him. Sandor, even in aGoT always seemed somewhat tortured and conflicted and certainly saved Sansa from abuse and maybe worse. Jaime, on the other hand, threw bran out of the tower window. He was willing to take the life of an innocent child as easily as one would swat a mosquito, Jaime later wanted to kill Ned Ned, but spared him only because he knew that Tyrion would die if Ned did. Instead, he killed Ned's men. IMO, there was nothing to like about Jaime until he had his sword hand taken from him, and he had to re-define who he was. I'm not sure he ever atoned for the things he did, but he certainly acted like a different man.

Are there any other characters that come to mind as being redeemable?

 

[Eulalia]

I think it's easier to think of things that would put sympathetic characters beyond redemption.

Arya--she kills Sansa or Jon
Tyrion--he is cruel to Penny, kills or imprisons Dany so that he can rule Mereen
Sansa--has Arya or Jon killed
Sandor--kills one of the Stark girls
Dany--starts killing people for fun and tyranny, has her conquored enemies compete in the pits, profits from slavery, sets herself up in a brothel
Jaime--kills children again, or Brienne
Bran--takes over Hodor, aligns with the Others, kills Meera and Jojen, sabotages Jon

Cersei would be difficult to redeem, but not impossible. Cersei would be somewhat redeemed if she looked after Tommen in a motherly and ethical way, tried to rule ethically and cared for the people around her and tried to do the best for the people of King's Landing and Westeros, even if it meant surrender. Or she bided her time and sought revenge on the High Septon after it is made clear that he is a mysogynist and a ruthless power seeker, defended Margaery, and took blame for framing Margaery She could defend Myrcella in some dramatic way and take the veil. Seems against character, but she has had some life altering experiences.

 

[bubba-gump]

Cersei would be difficult to redeem, but not impossible.

True, but that would be so against her natural character that it would take some major kind of trauma/miracle for her to achieve the redemption.

One character I'm very disappointed in is UnCat, I really hoped that with this new 'life' she'd solve some of the problems caused by Catelyn (kidnapping a Lannister, starting a war, generally being irritating) but she seems to be making it worse

This last one is easy! Ramsey will burn in the Hells of all faiths! He has no soul to be redeemed.

GRRM has created a cracker of a character in Ramsey. I hate him so much I pity Theon which I thought I'd never do! He's so beyond redemption even Joffrey looks holy (ish).

And finally, during aGoT I distinctly remember hating Jaime. Then hating myself for beginning to like his change of morals, then going "what the hell" and loving his cheeky flirtations with Brienne and more mature out look on life. Does Jaime ever mention how he feels about hurting Bran? I can't remember, but we're slightly at a disadvantage, we know Bran will fly so this lessens the impact Jaime had on Bran's life for us so we can allow ourselves to like him more. But Jaime doesn't know this. was he sorry?

make sense? probably not!

 

[Fungous]

First off, The Imp, I'm honored to have somehow helped kick off this topic of yours. It's truly a thinker.

With that being said let me throw some wood into the fire. While redemption is possible in the series, is it truly achievable for the worst of the worst? You bring up the Night's Watch as your example however, I would argue this is an illusion. I would argue that the truly evil are all beyond redemption! Case in point, after the Battle of the Fist of the First Men, the Night's Watch under Mormont self-destructs. Is it due to good men being scared? No, it's due to the so-called "redeemed" acting like the cowards they are and killing those in their way of returning to their past, raping and generally being selfish, safety be damned! The people that escape have either been forced to join the Night's Watch due to false accusations, threats of death or, if guilty, repentant from the word go. Joras Slynt while not a truly terrible terrible guy was beyond absolution because once he had taken the black, he cared more for himself than anything else and continued to hold onto the selfish ways he had always known. The Black was not his redemption... I cheered when he lost his head.

All this is a long way of getting to my point that those who show no remorse are beyond redemption. While this is no way an absolute (IMO Sandor, but that is for another posting).
1) Cersei is beyond absolution. Her whole life has been the corruption of others in order to get what she wants. There is nothing off limits and in the end, she only cares for her children because they are an extension of herself. Everything she does know is to get herself back in the seat of power. She has raised the dead, attempted to kill her own kin, put off the safety of the realm for her own petty rivalries and not had one iota of regret. May she burn in however many bells there are and receive a painful death from the many-faced God.
2) Ramsay Snow-Bolton, no explanation needed. Same theme though, oly cares for himself.
3). Crow's Eye. If he is a kin-slayer he's pretty far gone. TBH though I think he sold himself out to the Other anyway and is beyond redemption but I could be wrong there.
4). Gregor Clegagne. Unrepentant killer, raper, gods know what else. No redemption possible and he is serving the Other through that Ex-Maester who's name eludes me.

I think that which binds those who are redeemable is that even though they have done terrible things... they were either tricked or circumstances warped them into monstrous action.
1). Jaime is a fantastic example. Everyone hated him but as you experience life through his eyes... Honestly who wouldn't have earned the title Kingslayer after seeing what Aegon had done? Pushing Bran out the window was the product of his incestuous but head over heels love for Cersei. "The things we do for love.". I'm not trying to say that his actions weren't evil, and need atonement but he is now on his way. He saved his brother from his sister and know wants Cersei to pay for her evil ways, and that's why we now like him. He is not caring only for himself, he wants to do what is right and set the realm straight! That is the road to redemption, if he makes it the whole way... Well we'll see about that.
2). Theon *sigh*: is redeemable *sigh*. His selfishness drove him to disgusting acts but I get the sense that he has nightmares about what he has done, and hates himself for it. He has paid terribly but his acts of late have been much more non-selfish and more for the good of others but I personally think that he is still thinking of just himself. Selflessness in my opinion is the only way he survives the Winter. IMO his chances are about 33% he makes it, 50% he gets a quick death, and 27% he is given to the flames.

This is a lot, even to proofread so I'm going to stop for now but if you have further doubts, just think about Mance Rayder. It wasn't he who was given to the flames... It was the Lord of Bones.

Totally interested in what you guys think.

 

[The Imp]

First off, The Imp, I'm honored to have somehow helped kick off this topic of yours. It's truly a thinker.

With that being said let me throw some wood into the fire. While redemption is possible in the series, is it truly achievable for the worst of the worst? You bring up the Night's Watch as your example however, I would argue this is an illusion. I would argue that the truly evil are all beyond redemption! Case in point, after the Battle of the Fist of the First Men, the Night's Watch under Mormont self-destructs. Is it due to good men being scared? No, it's due to the so-called "redeemed" acting like the cowards they are and killing those in their way of returning to their past, raping and generally being selfish, safety be damned! The people that escape have either been forced to join the Night's Watch due to false accusations, threats of death or, if guilty, repentant from the word go. Joras Slynt while not a truly terrible terrible guy was beyond absolution because once he had taken the black, he cared more for himself than anything else and continued to hold onto the selfish ways he had always known. The Black was not his redemption... I cheered when he lost his head.

All this is a long way of getting to my point that those who show no remorse are beyond redemption. While this is no way an absolute (IMO Sandor, but that is for another posting).
1) Cersei is beyond absolution. Her whole life has been the corruption of others in order to get what she wants. There is nothing off limits and in the end, she only cares for her children because they are an extension of herself. Everything she does know is to get herself back in the seat of power. She has raised the dead, attempted to kill her own kin, put off the safety of the realm for her own petty rivalries and not had one iota of regret. May she burn in however many bells there are and receive a painful death from the many-faced God.
2) Ramsay Snow-Bolton, no explanation needed. Same theme though, oly cares for himself.
3). Crow's Eye. If he is a kin-slayer he's pretty far gone. TBH though I think he sold himself out to the Other anyway and is beyond redemption but I could be wrong there.
4). Gregor Clegagne. Unrepentant killer, raper, gods know what else. No redemption possible and he is serving the Other through that Ex-Maester who's name eludes me.

I think that which binds those who are redeemable is that even though they have done terrible things... they were either tricked or circumstances warped them into monstrous action.
1). Jaime is a fantastic example. Everyone hated him but as you experience life through his eyes... Honestly who wouldn't have earned the title Kingslayer after seeing what Aegon had done? Pushing Bran out the window was the product of his incestuous but head over heels love for Cersei. "The things we do for love.". I'm not trying to say that his actions weren't evil, and need atonement but he is now on his way. He saved his brother from his sister and know wants Cersei to pay for her evil ways, and that's why we now like him. He is not caring only for himself, he wants to do what is right and set the realm straight! That is the road to redemption, if he makes it the whole way... Well we'll see about that.
2). Theon *sigh*: is redeemable *sigh*. His selfishness drove him to disgusting acts but I get the sense that he has nightmares about what he has done, and hates himself for it. He has paid terribly but his acts of late have been much more non-selfish and more for the good of others but I personally think that he is still thinking of just himself. Selflessness in my opinion is the only way he survives the Winter. IMO his chances are about 33% he makes it, 50% he gets a quick death, and 27% he is given to the flames.

This is a lot, even to proofread so I'm going to stop for now but if you have further doubts, just think about Mance Rayder. It wasn't he who was given to the flames... It was the Lord of Bones.

Totally interested in what you guys think.

I( can't do just to your excellent post as i'm writing this during the half time of a basketball game

Your point about the Night's Watch is well taken, but my point was slightly different. I wasn't implying that any of the men of the Watch had become better men, or even admitted guilt or felt remorse. They are "redeemed" only in theory, as thhey are given a clean slate in return for agreeing to a very bleak life. I find it iteresting as a concept that anyone, even a Jerry Sandusky (just to be current) could have his transgressions "erased" by taking the Black.

i'm not sure that those who are reddemable would had to have been tricked or in some way warped by circumstance to do the terrible things that they did. I think that Theon did what he did with a clear mind and of his own volition. What makes him redeemable IMO is that there has always been a shred of humanity in him, even as he was doing his worst. Gregor Clegane or Ramsay Bolton may as well be rabid dogs. There is nothing in them in which humanity could take hold, and in any case, it's too late for Gregor anyway. The name of the Maester is Qyburn btw

 

[southron sword]

There was nothing likable about him. IMO, there was nothing to like about Jaime until he had his sword hand taken from him, and he had to re-define who he was.

Hmmm. Well, I honestly NEVER disliked Jaime. Even after Bran got chucked from the window. (I kind of assumed Bran was dead and just moved on LOL, ahh I'm not a good human). Am I heartless? No. But, Jaime is cool, even back then... and I.... honestly...... like the bad guys. (Darth Vader all the way). But I never got the feeling Jaime was evil. Bad, lacking morals, sick sense of duty, sure. But not evil.

Cersei is evil. as some have pointed out, she let her friend die. I think Jaime would fight for his friends. He lives in the moment and doesnt really think. That doesnt make him evil.

I can see what your saying, mate. But Jaime I think Jaime is redeemable and has been redeemed. while Cercei is gone. Just gone...... No hope.....

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Cersei would never ever be able to take such a turn for the better to redeem herself. True, she was shamed by that walk through the city, but I feel that it's not enough for her. Redemption should be earned and not simply gifted to one. If Cersei hadn't changed upon the death of her dear Joffrey, she will never change. She had been told she would see all her children dead and she still does nothing to protect them. In fact, she puts them in harm's way as she tries to rule through them. So even is she did all those things Eulalia has mentioned, she still wouldn't redeem herself for what we are missing in Eulalia's scenario is the concept of atonement. I vote no on this one.

Jaime in the other hand did deserve his redemption. I hated him through and through before he redeemed. He got severely punished when he lost his sword hand for it represented losing everything he is. He had to reinvent himself earning his redemption in the process.

Ramsay Snow-Bolton and his daddy Roose should both burn (or freeze) in the deepest pits of hell. Both are sadistic and evil through and through even thoug it is less evident in the case of Roose since he is smart, cunning and manipulative as opposed to his demented ******* boy. No for their redemption.

Also, the Freys will never deserve redemption. They have broken one of the fundamental laws and traditions. They had harmed a guest in that way doing something that is frowned upon by everyone.

Theon deserved his redemption through and through. He got punished so severely that from one of the most hated characters he became the one everyone pities. I used to hate him and now I only pity him and hope he doesn't get in the hands of Ramsay again. He saved Jayne and in that process showed how much he had changed.

Qyburn is an evil entity. He should be burned to death.

Gregor will never redeem himself.

Viserys was on the way to become irredeemable because he would only get worse and worse. Drogo did him a favour in fact.

As for the good guy taking a turn for the worst, UnCat is already there. Now she is a vengeful, merciless killer that does not distinguish the good and the evil. There only exists revenge in her mind, revenge on everyone and nothing else.

I don't thing Arya and Sansa will dwell in the darkness too much. Ture, Arya is becoming an assassin and Sansa is learning the rules of the game but it only makes them of a bit darker shade of gray than before.

As for the whole concept of redemption by joining the Night's Watch, I think that the redemption doesn't lay simply in joining but in serving there for a longer time and by losing life they once had, making themselves better men. Kind of like how Theon and Jaime completely lost themselves before they got their redemption. True, not everyone does it, but I think that's the main concept behind the Night's Watch. Redemption should be earned through suffering and realizing the errors of one's ways and than changing for the better and in no other way.

 

[juleska]

I think some of you aren't quite remembering the Jaime Lannister of aGoT. There was nothing likable about him. Sandor, even in aGoT always seemed somewhat tortured and conflicted and certainly saved Sansa from abuse and maybe worse. Jaime, on the other hand, threw bran out of the tower window. He was willing to take the life of an innocent child as easily as one would swat a mosquito, Jaime later wanted to kill Ned Ned, but spared him only because he knew that Tyrion would die if Ned did. Instead, he killed Ned's men. IMO, there was nothing to like about Jaime until he had his sword hand taken from him, and he had to re-define who he was. I'm not sure he ever atoned for the things he did, but he certainly acted like a different man.

Are there any other characters that come to mind as being redeemable?

With the exception of Gregor and Ramsay, who are plainly evil, I will reserve judgement on those who can't be redeemed until we've had an opportunity (which we will never get in some cases) to walk a mile in their shoes via a POV chapter, or be learning something about them from another character's POV that shapes our understanding of that person.

Theon was always within redemption IMO. He was a selfish little prat when we met him, yes. But we also have to consider that he was taken from home at the age of 10, never allowed to see his family, never fully embraced as a member of the family in Winterfell, and always aware of the fact that he was, above all else, a hostage. To then return home only to be spurned by smallfolk and family alike, it's little wonder he became such a bitter young man. All that said, he clearly has a conscience. And as Needle said, he has paid for his crimes, and then some. If any man deserved to take the black it should've been Theon before he was broken. Imagine how much good he could've done for the Watch if he'd only heeded Maester Lewin and gone to the Wall when Ser Roderick was at the gates. He was a superb archer, a disciplined fighter, young, strong and literate. I don't know what good he'd be to the Night's Watch now. A good clean death is probably the best thing he could get. If he tells someone the truth of the Stark boys as his last act, then he will be truly redeemed.

I remember extremely well how much I loathed Jaime in AGOT. It's only been a year and a half since I read the series for the first time. I just re-read AGOT in the last few months and it was interesting to see his actions with the understanding I've now gained through his POV chapters as well as the POV chapters of Cersei and Tyrion. But the critical distinction between Cersei's dislikeability and Jaime's dislikeability is that the POV chapters mentioned above improved my understanding and opinion of Jaime, while my opinion of Cersei only worsened.

I think most of the people on Arya's list could be redeemed, save Cersei and the Mountain. But Arya is dancing on the precipice of the void beyond redemption.

We should also ask ourselves what redemption really means? To be redeemed would mean to be restored in accordance with a certain standard, certainly an ethical or moral standard. But with so many gods crowding the landscape in Westeros these days, by which standard would one be redeemed?

Arya the Assassin would be beyond redemption to the Seven, even while she remained in service to the Many Faced God.

Ned Stark may have been the very picture of honor to all of us readers, but to Dany he was a traitor. He helped overthrow her father from the throne and (by virtue of his support of Robert's Rebellion) had a hand in her brother's death. He was awfully prickly about the line of succession where Stannis was concerned, but not so much when Robert proposed to depose the "rightful" king. Ned Stark is part of the reason Dany spent the first 13 years of her life running from assassins, her family dead save Viserys, why she was sold to a Khal and now has to claw her way back to Westeros on her own means.

Jon Snow is an admirable man to most of us readers, but to Gilly he's the man who forced her apart from her son, risking that her child would be put to the flame. To the brothers of the NW he's the man who broke his vows repeatedly and under questionable circumstances.

To ask who is within the reach of redemption we must first ask by what standard are they "bad" to begin with? And by what standard would we call them "good" again?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

We should also ask ourselves what redemption really means? To be redeemed would mean to be restored in accordance with a certain standard, certainly an ethical or moral standard. But with so many gods crowding the landscape in Westeros these days, by which standard would one be redeemed?

Arya the Assassin would be beyond redemption to the Seven, even while she remained in service to the Many Faced God.

Ned Stark may have been the very picture of honor to all of us readers, but to Dany he was a traitor. He helped overthrow her father from the throne and (by virtue of his support of Robert's Rebellion) had a hand in her brother's death. He was awfully prickly about the line of succession where Stannis was concerned, but not so much when Robert proposed to depose the "rightful" king. Ned Stark is part of the reason Dany spent the first 13 years of her life running from assassins, her family dead save Viserys, why she was sold to a Khal and now has to claw her way back to Westeros on her own means.

Jon Snow is an admirable man to most of us readers, but to Gilly he's the man who forced her apart from her son, risking that her child would be put to the flame. To the brothers of the NW he's the man who broke his vows repeatedly and under questionable circumstances.

To ask who is within the reach of redemption we must first ask by what standard are they "bad" to begin with? And by what standard would we call them "good" again?

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Most of them do not share the same religion, yes, but religion isn't the only one giving standards.
Arya the Assassin would probably not be redeemed in the eyes of the Seven, but you don't have to be redeemed in the eyes of the gods, but humans. You are stating it yourself. It's all about the point of view. Readers know more than most characters. We know why Arya became a servant of the Many Faced God; unlike Dany we know how Ned came to rebel; unlike NW we know the motivations behind Jon's actions (I'm not going to argue Gilly there because I was quite pissed at Jon for that one); most of us thinks Jaime had redeemed for we have began to understand his motivations and see he was painted with a much too darker brush than he should have been. Since we know more and we are the ones debating redemption here, it is all about what you think, about the mindset the reader has while reading, what reader thinks is good and what is bad.

 

[Needle]

First I want to say "Thanks jule!" for complicating an already complicated issue! It brings up for me a sort of religious divide in the characters. Those who worship the Seven seem to more easily lean toward the “dark” side. The Seven have pretty clear moral values on their followers, as shown by each of the individual seven and what they protect or stand for. Yet Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Catelyn, Tywin, Gregor, and myriad others who have or are still doing “evil” things say they follow the Seven.

This brings us to the Old Gods. As far as I can see, they provide no direct guidance. No priests, no rules, no advice. They leave their followers to wrestle with their own conscience’s, to make their own decisions on the morality of an issue. Yet with a few exceptions,like the Boltons, these people tend towards the “light” side. Ned, Jon, Robb, even the more violent ones such as GreatJon, have their lines.

Just wanted to add a little wood to the God’s fire!

Now to Imp’s question about those who may be headed toward the “dark” side.
You all know Arya is my girl! After all she has been through heading toward the dark side seems reasonable enough to me. Not much she can do to truly complete that journey IMHO. I don’t see her intentionally hurting any of her remaining family, yes even Sansa! And that is what it would take to truly harm her for me.

As I have stated many times before I think the Others and the Old Gods are connected. If they are, I do fear Bran being sucked into something dark. Will he see it coming in time? If he does will he reject all it can offer him? We will have to see.

Catelyn, I’m sorry to say is already there. Vengence upon any and all is the only thing she has, it may be part of what is keeping her “alive”.

Dany, like Arya, began this journey as a child. Both were forced to grow up rapidly, the hard way. I think for the most part she has done well. I willfully chose to ignore ADWD Dany and feel we got the real Dany back in her last chapters. If not, GRRM may be permanently on my **** list!

Okay all for now. Please don’t rip my head off to violently on the religious aspects I raised!

 

[The Imp]

With the exception of Gregor and Ramsay, who are plainly evil, I will reserve judgement on those who can't be redeemed until we've had an opportunity (which we will never get in some cases) to walk a mile in their shoes via a POV chapter, or be learning something about them from another character's POV that shapes our understanding of that person.

Theon was always within redemption IMO. He was a selfish little prat when we met him, yes. But we also have to consider that he was taken from home at the age of 10, never allowed to see his family, never fully embraced as a member of the family in Winterfell, and always aware of the fact that he was, above all else, a hostage. To then return home only to be spurned by smallfolk and family alike, it's little wonder he became such a bitter young man. All that said, he clearly has a conscience. And as Needle said, he has paid for his crimes, and then some. If any man deserved to take the black it should've been Theon before he was broken. Imagine how much good he could've done for the Watch if he'd only heeded Maester Lewin and gone to the Wall when Ser Roderick was at the gates. He was a superb archer, a disciplined fighter, young, strong and literate. I don't know what good he'd be to the Night's Watch now. A good clean death is probably the best thing he could get. If he tells someone the truth of the Stark boys as his last act, then he will be truly redeemed.

I remember extremely well how much I loathed Jaime in AGOT. It's only been a year and a half since I read the series for the first time. I just re-read AGOT in the last few months and it was interesting to see his actions with the understanding I've now gained through his POV chapters as well as the POV chapters of Cersei and Tyrion. But the critical distinction between Cersei's dislikeability and Jaime's dislikeability is that the POV chapters mentioned above improved my understanding and opinion of Jaime, while my opinion of Cersei only worsened.

I think most of the people on Arya's list could be redeemed, save Cersei and the Mountain. But Arya is dancing on the precipice of the void beyond redemption.

We should also ask ourselves what redemption really means? To be redeemed would mean to be restored in accordance with a certain standard, certainly an ethical or moral standard. But with so many gods crowding the landscape in Westeros these days, by which standard would one be redeemed?

Arya the Assassin would be beyond redemption to the Seven, even while she remained in service to the Many Faced God.

Ned Stark may have been the very picture of honor to all of us readers, but to Dany he was a traitor. He helped overthrow her father from the throne and (by virtue of his support of Robert's Rebellion) had a hand in her brother's death. He was awfully prickly about the line of succession where Stannis was concerned, but not so much when Robert proposed to depose the "rightful" king. Ned Stark is part of the reason Dany spent the first 13 years of her life running from assassins, her family dead save Viserys, why she was sold to a Khal and now has to claw her way back to Westeros on her own means.

Jon Snow is an admirable man to most of us readers, but to Gilly he's the man who forced her apart from her son, risking that her child would be put to the flame. To the brothers of the NW he's the man who broke his vows repeatedly and under questionable circumstances.

To ask who is within the reach of redemption we must first ask by what standard are they "bad" to begin with? And by what standard would we call them "good" again?

You raise interesting points about what the measure of redemption is, who applies it, etc. I guess my original post never even talked about that.

The underlying though that drove my post was the idea of a character within the story being redeemed in the eyes of the readers. This way at looking at redemption allows for a much less focused way of looking at it, or even defining it. Within the story, almost everyone still thinks that Jaime is scum. In the eyes of us, the readers, we understand that he has undergone a personal transformation, and deserves a second chance. The same can be said of Sandor, or Theon. Most of the people in the books would label them as dirt (or worse). We, as readers, understand them better, and thus know them better, so we're more in a position to forgive, or at least grant another chance.

As for who is redeemable. I think the basic answer is none of the psychopaths are, Gregor and Ramsay are certainly in that category.

One last thought as to the difference between Jaime and his sweet sister. When throwing Bran out of the window, seemingly to his death, Jaime's words were "the things I do for love" He clearly understands that what he did was wrong. Had Cersei been the one to throw Bran, she would have said something like "that little ******* will trouble us no more"

 

[Fungous]

So reading through this, it seems two questions have now been raised, at the very least beyond who is redeemable. 1) is redemption in the eyes of the Gods what should be considered or is GRRM's theme something we should decide on our own. 2) Religiously what is going on here? Which Gods are mattering or need to be considered at the current moment? Who serves what?

1). I tend to believe that this is meant to be judged from a personal perspective. It's all in how you see things. I was reading last night through the forums where a member was saying he never disliked Jaime because he roots for the bad guy, regardless though, our shared values still have him riding the same emotional rollercoaster we all are. Unless we were ourselves servants of the Gods in this book, we would only do it dis justice to try and judge the characters by the standards of their own gods. This is only my opinion of course, please feel free to disagree.

2) While complex, I think this series of questions is by far the most important. Hopefully I can explain why it is pertinent to redemption.
2a) First off, for the sake of argument, we need to somewhat categorize the faiths. I would argue that there are only 2 magical religions and that these are the 2 most important for the BATTLE to come. Not the most important in the story, that's a separate question. These are -The Old Gods (devastated by Servants of the Seven over Millenia but not gone, in fact still protecting the realm with the magic in the wall and through the last of the Greenseer's), and -The God of Fire.

2b). The Many-faced God is an amalgamation of all the Gods, and therefore man-made. It may have countless servants but I can't think of any way in which they are going to play a role in the Battle of the Wights. Same goes for the Seven, which are in fact seven faces of the same God. Her followers now have Armies but vie only for power in the realm of men. I would argue that they share no justness as they are tools for men to squabble over selfish things in these books while still maintaining Chivalry.

2c). The Servants of R'hllor who have been gifted the sight all speak clearly of their faith all seem to be following a path being granted them through the fires. Also, they don't only speak of it just being R'hllor, there is also the Other who will not be named. We know little of the Old Gods but I think it's safe to assume that these servants of nature view themselves as defenders from this Evil embodied by the Wights... The Others. It is for this reason that I would argue that in terms of the battle to come these are the only Gods that matter.

2d). Accepting this argument, we realize that there is an unaccounted for God out there who we have no POV for. The Other. It is the one running the show of the ultimate battle. It has an Army of Undead as well as servants in and about the World. It's servants, knowing of It or not are the truly irredeemable, as I would argue that GRRM designed the Other to be true evil.
- Cersei: servant of greed, would sacrifice the world in order to increase her own power, keeps everyone's eyes off the ball despite growing alarm bells from the NW
- Euron Crow's eye: bringer of the Horn of the North. I think he already sold his soul a long way back.
- The Mountain: Disgusting human being, now Un-dead servant of Cersei (thereby making her case for redemption even worse)
- Qyburn: Come on... no explanation needed there
- Un-Cat: Servant of Vengeance, only explanation I can give is that she was dead too long

I got work to do but please let me know if there is something that needs more explanation or is just unclear.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

So reading through this, it seems two questions have now been raised, at the very least beyond who is redeemable. 1) is redemption in the eyes of the Gods what should be considered or is GRRM's theme something we should decide on our own. 2) Religiously what is going on here? Which Gods are mattering or need to be considered at the current moment? Who serves what?

1). I tend to believe that this is meant to be judged from a personal perspective. It's all in how you see things. I was reading last night through the forums where a member was saying he never disliked Jaime because he roots for the bad guy, regardless though, our shared values still have him riding the same emotional rollercoaster we all are. Unless we were ourselves servants of the Gods in this book, we would only do it dis justice to try and judge the characters by the standards of their own gods. This is only my opinion of course, please feel free to disagree.

2) While complex, I think this series of questions is by far the most important. Hopefully I can explain why it is pertinent to redemption.
2a) First off, for the sake of argument, we need to somewhat categorize the faiths. I would argue that there are only 2 magical religions and that these are the 2 most important for the BATTLE to come. Not the most important in the story, that's a separate question. These are -The Old Gods (devastated by Servants of the Seven over Millenia but not gone, in fact still protecting the realm with the magic in the wall and through the last of the Greenseer's), and -The God of Fire.

2b). The Many-faced God is an amalgamation of all the Gods, and therefore man-made. It may have countless servants but I can't think of any way in which they are going to play a role in the Battle of the Wights. Same goes for the Seven, which are in fact seven faces of the same God. Her followers now have Armies but vie only for power in the realm of men. I would argue that they share no justness as they are tools for men to squabble over selfish things in these books while still maintaining Chivalry.

2c). The Servants of R'hllor who have been gifted the sight all speak clearly of their faith all seem to be following a path being granted them through the fires. Also, they don't only speak of it just being R'hllor, there is also the Other who will not be named. We know little of the Old Gods but I think it's safe to assume that these servants of nature view themselves as defenders from this Evil embodied by the Wights... The Others. It is for this reason that I would argue that in terms of the battle to come these are the only Gods that matter.

2d). Accepting this argument, we realize that there is an unaccounted for God out there who we have no POV for. The Other. It is the one running the show of the ultimate battle. It has an Army of Undead as well as servants in and about the World. It's servants, knowing of It or not are the truly irredeemable, as I would argue that GRRM designed the Other to be true evil.
- Cersei: servant of greed, would sacrifice the world in order to increase her own power, keeps everyone's eyes off the ball despite growing alarm bells from the NW
- Euron Crow's eye: bringer of the Horn of the North. I think he already sold his soul a long way back.
- The Mountain: Disgusting human being, now Un-dead servant of Cersei (thereby making her case for redemption even worse)
- Qyburn: Come on... no explanation needed there
- Un-Cat: Servant of Vengeance, only explanation I can give is that she was dead too long

I got work to do but please let me know if there is something that needs more explanation or is just unclear.

You are raising some quite difficult questions here. I agree that the Old Gods and R'hllor are the gods. Personally, I like the Old Gods. As for the R'hllor, I distrust the Red God. The ability to raise dead is something that comes far to close to the Others for my taste and I quite dislike the methods of his followers that destroy other religions. Mel seems to have seen Bran as the champion of the Other while we are somewhat sure Bran is the servant of Old Gods (Children of the Forest seem to have been Old Gods' servants all along). What if R'hllor's the Other are actually Old Gods? Mel does try to destroy weirwood wherever she can and we know that weirwoods are the source of Old Gods powers. (less weirwoods in the area, less power for the Old Gods there.) Is R'hllor positive then and Old Gods negative? What if R'hllor is acutally the "bad guy"? Or did Mel got her message in the flames wrong since many of R'hllor's followers are trying to raise and army to destroy the evil we think are the Others? Then the Other is still unaccounted for like you say. To many unknown variables to solve this equation for me.

 

[The Imp]

Brilliant post Fungous. I don't agree with a few points, but I think you're mostly spot on. The main point I would contest is the idea of The (Great) Other being a third part of the equation. I think that the undead patrolling the outside of the cave and the fact that the Others come with the cold both suggest to me that the Great other is one of the Old Gods, or maybe even THE Old God. I think we will ulimately find out the it's a song of Ice AND fire, rather than one having to triumph over the other.

Or perhaps Rh'llor and the Old Gods are aspects of the one god, perhaps the gereat other, in which case you would be right. Or perhaps Fire (Dany) and Ice (Bran) have to unite to win the final battle.

But then there's the outside of the cave, and Coldhands...............

I think I'm confusing myself

 

[Fungous]

I never thought along those lines but you may be right although I can't see it myself. Before the Seven, the Old Gods ruled and the place wasn't a Wight paradise nor can one make an argument that followers of the Old Gods are evil. Matter of fact Catelyn Tully never really takes up the Old Gods preferring The Maid and look at her now.
Throw into that, the Children of the Forest are servants of the Old Gods and used to deliver dragon glass to the Watch and helped with the Wall. If the Old Gods are the Other then he is either really cunning and with a really long term plan or really really retarded. I may be biased, or blinded by my own imaginings though.
Personally I can't get behind that theory of the Old Gods (Nature, IMO) being servants of the Other(Cold). Oooohhhhhhhh... I could see the Old + the Red (earth and Fire) in a huge battle against the Drowned + the Other (water and Ice)!!