Redemption

[bubba-gump]

Just wanted to add a little wood to the God’s fire!

You certainly did! and this got me thinking about how the Old Gods seem to have very honourable followers (except the Bolton's as previously said). Almost like the pirates code, he killed my kin, now I'm allowed my revenge sort of thing. Which would seem an irredeemable to anyone else thing but maybe in the Old Gods eyes it's not.

Whereas the seven do seem a lot more structured and a lot more disreputable IMO with this new arch-maester guy. Even though they have clear views on conscience (IMO with sisters and maesters mirroring nuns and bishops).

And what Arya is learning seems to be in the name of the many faced God, but I can't see Arya doing anything evil or irredeemable. So assassination in seems to be "allowed" for the many-faced God.

So what I'm wandering is if the religions can justly redeem people... like the seven did for Cersei, even though we all know she's too loco to be nice. We may not think they're a better person but the societies in the book might.

 

[Ursa major]

I think some of you aren't quite remembering the Jaime Lannister of aGoT.

He wasn't very likeable, but his principal sin in that book, his attempt to kill Bran, wasn't an example of mindless evil along the lines of something Gregor would do (for the fun of it).

Jaime was killing one child to save three other children's lives (i.e. those of his children with Cersei) and, of course, his life and Cersei's. That he seemed to commit the crime in such an offhand manner didn't help him in the likeability stakes (although it probably made the act easier to commit); on the other hand, Cersei was demanding something be done (albeit in not so many words), and Jaime chose the most believable end for Bran. (Well it would have been, except for Bran's survival.)

 

[The Imp]

He wasn't very likeable, but his principal sin in that book, his attempt to kill Bran, wasn't an example of mindless evil along the lines of something Gregor would do (for the fun of it).

Jaime was killing one child to save three other children's lives (i.e. those of his children with Cersei) and, of course, his life and Cersei's. That he seemed to commit the crime in such an offhand manner didn't help him in the likeability stakes (although it probably made the act easier to commit); on the other hand, Cersei was demanding something be done (albeit in not so many words), and Jaime chose the most believable end for Bran. (Well it would have been, except for Bran's survival.)

You give him too much credit Bear. He threw Bran out the window for his sister and to protect their secret. His love for his children, or even concern for them, never entered his mind IMO.


Also, as I said earlier, his willing ness to kill Ned, and the fact that he slaughtered his men, coupled wityh his earlier murder attempt made him an extremely unlikable character. Everyone admits he was a "bad guy', even the people that claim to have liked him because they root for that type.

 

[Ursa major]

I didn't say he wasn't bad (or that what he did wasn't a crime), only that he wasn't evil (which would probably have made him irredeemable). And while you're probably right about what he was thinking in that tower room, the circumstances (the saving of his own children's lives) would have made it easier for him to later justify the act, if only to himself.

 

[Slizabeth]

Yes, Jaime is perceived as either redeemed, or at least redeemable. I think this is because GRRM is writing Jaimes character so that we the readers think of Jaime in that way. Cersei (IMHO) is able to be redeemed via the skill of GRRM....however, she is not worthy of redemption. For me, the main ones that I dislike (and therefore don't want to see redeemed) are the Frey's, the Mountain, Cersei, and both Boltons.

 

[The Imp]

I didn't say he wasn't bad (or that what he did wasn't a crime), only that he wasn't evil (which would probably have made him irredeemable). And while you're probably right about what he was thinking in that tower room, the circumstances (the saving of his own children's lives) would have made it easier for him to later justify the act, if only to himself.

He wasn't pure evil, but there was evil within him-

The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing.

I had all but forgotten the bolded text. Jaime clearly hated what he was about to do, and that didn't stop him from doing it. but the fact that he KNEW it was wrong immediately makes it clear that he has a conscience, and thus redeemable. I don't know if he was thinking about his children, or about continuing to be able to screw his sister, the text is not nearly as clear as I remember it being Let's say we're both right.

 

[The Imp]

Yes, Jaime is perceived as either redeemed, or at least redeemable. I think this is because GRRM is writing Jaimes character so that we the readers think of Jaime in that way. Cersei (IMHO) is able to be redeemed via the skill of GRRM....however, she is not worthy of redemption. For me, the main ones that I dislike (and therefore don't want to see redeemed) are the Frey's, the Mountain, Cersei, and both Boltons.

Welcome Slizabeth

I don't WANT Cersei to be redeemed, but it would be a great piece of wrioting if she really was. As for Gregor and the Boltons, they are psychopathic monters and beyond redemption IMO.

 

[Fungous]

Welcome Slizabeth

I don't WANT Cersei to be redeemed, but it would be a great piece of wrioting if she really was. As for Gregor and the Boltons, they are psychopathic monters and beyond redemption IMO.

It would be the most amazing piece of writing ever for him to make her redeemable, like the best EVER.

Question though: I get why Ramsey Snow is unredeemable but why Roose? Sure he's power hungry and conniving but is that all it takes? We haven't gotten a POV from him so we don't know whether he fought internally over the Red Wedding or if he thinks he did it for the good of the realm (albeit in his own view). What we do know is that he does not love Ramsey, only really "deals" with him. As a matter of fact he would be happy to have that fat Frey of a wife of his bear him some children but... He knows Ramsey will just kill them! I'm reaching here but what if the Frey's used his slight love for his wife to convince him of the Red Wedding, that mingled with his own desire to rule the North? Would you all still view him as unredeemable?

I'm just not so sure about him.

 

[juleska]

It would be the most amazing piece of writing ever for him to make her redeemable, like the best EVER.

Question though: I get why Ramsey Snow is unredeemable but why Roose? Sure he's power hungry and conniving but is that all it takes? We haven't gotten a POV from him so we don't know whether he fought internally over the Red Wedding or if he thinks he did it for the good of the realm (albeit in his own view). What we do know is that he does not love Ramsey, only really "deals" with him. As a matter of fact he would be happy to have that fat Frey of a wife of his bear him some children but... He knows Ramsey will just kill them! I'm reaching here but what if the Frey's used his slight love for his wife to convince him of the Red Wedding, that mingled with his own desire to rule the North? Would you all still view him as unredeemable?

I'm just not so sure about him.

Do you know the story of how Roose fathered Ramsay? He is every bit as unconscionable as his ******* son, but he is a great deal more intelligent. Also, he flays people. So he's an unrepentant torturer who wears the mask of civility and plays the part of a high lord. He is in many ways more dangerous and much worse than Ramsay.

 

[Needle]

I have to say I think Roose is in many ways worse than Ramsey. Ramsey is clearly evil, enjoying the horrible things he does, he also hates Roose probably more than anyone else. He was raised by a mother who put that hatred there along with ideas about the "rights" of birth he was being denied. Yet he is also stupid. Clearly not redeemable but one can understand at least a little how he got to be that way. Doesn't make me hate him any less, but the understanding is there.

Roose, on the other hand, is far from stupid. Very smart, cunning and manipulative. He knows exactly what he is doing and will use anyone in anyway to do it. He does what he does, including TRW for his own advancement. Oh there is that your ancestors killed some of my ancestors thing, but I don't for a minute think he cares one whit about that. He says he is "oddly fond" of his fat little wife, kinda like he is fond of his favorite dog or something. If he ever cared for anyone it was his first son, whom Ramsey killed. So the fact that he is now using Ramsey as a means to an end, says it all to me.

 

[The Imp]

It would be the most amazing piece of writing ever for him to make her redeemable, like the best EVER.

Question though: I get why Ramsey Snow is unredeemable but why Roose? Sure he's power hungry and conniving but is that all it takes? We haven't gotten a POV from him so we don't know whether he fought internally over the Red Wedding or if he thinks he did it for the good of the realm (albeit in his own view). What we do know is that he does not love Ramsey, only really "deals" with him. As a matter of fact he would be happy to have that fat Frey of a wife of his bear him some children but... He knows Ramsey will just kill them! I'm reaching here but what if the Frey's used his slight love for his wife to convince him of the Red Wedding, that mingled with his own desire to rule the North? Would you all still view him as unredeemable?

I'm just not so sure about him.

At the very least, Roose has stood by watching Ramsay commit horrific acts and has done nothing to stop him. Within this context, at the very least, he is guilty by omission rather than commission, and at worst, Roose supports Ramsay's actions, and might even be the one giving the orders to do what he does in order to keep his own hands clean. I am suspicious of the "boys will be boys" attitude. I also think that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and that Ramsay probably learned much and more from Roose. Lastly, let's not forget the sigil of House Bolton.

 

[joepan29]

I think GRRM has been foreshadowing some of the redemption for a while now, at least for Jaime and Theon.

Jaime could likely end up being the "valenqar" kill UnGregor, kill Cercei (with new power after an acquital and Kevan's death) -- total redemption, no?

And judging by Asha's comments about the history of the kinsmoot, it's likely that she and Theon go back to the Iron Islands to try to take the throne from Euron. If he re-alligns the islands with the Starks or "good-guys" and helps in the fight against the others, I think he would be redeemed.

 

[Eulalia]

Yes, joepan, I think Jaime and Theon are good candidates for redemption.

I think Jaime will either end up being a Robinhood character, like the Smilingknight, or perhaps be reminded by Stoneheart of his oath and join up with Brienne to find/rescue Sansa and Arya.

The guess about Theon and Asha trying to take Euron's place and help against the Others is a good one. Maybe he will have an uncomfortale encounter with the Kraken.

Cersei would be a tricky one to redeem. Ha, I don't imagine she would have had too many doubts about Bran, and killing her childhood friend is a moment of breaking bad that would be hard to overlook. But she is being portrayed more sympathetically in the TV series, so that is something to consider, and the Walk of Shame, torture and brainwashing episodes made me feel pity and I didn't think Martin could do that.

I do have a funny feeling that Arya will have to kill Tommen to mix things up and confuse our postive regard (should you have it and I do) of Arya. Cersei may be defending Tommen, who is a sweet innocent! And the Nissa Nissa theory, well, yikes.

I suppose Sansa has a few things to redeem herself for, as well, having betrayed Arya and her father in the beginning, although she did not understand the consequences.

Brienne is working on redemption for her failure to protect Renley.

Sandor may be looking for redemption.

Sam is, for his cowardice.

I wonder how Dany will react to finding out about Aerys, because sooner or later, she must.

Ramsay, not a chance. Six skins, likewise. There is a lot of flaying in these books...

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Now to Imp’s question about those who may be headed toward the “dark” side.
You all know Arya is my girl! After all she has been through heading toward the dark side seems reasonable enough to me. Not much she can do to truly complete that journey IMHO. I don’t see her intentionally hurting any of her remaining family, yes even Sansa! And that is what it would take to truly harm her for me.

I can actually see this happening if Arya stay along her path and becomes a faceless woman. But it would only happen if their death would be necessary for the good of the kingdon. I can't work out the mechinisms of exactly how this would come to pass, but lets say Sansa gains controll of an army and is marching to war agoinst the Cersei in the south, when really she should be taking the men north to fight the Others, maybe Arya will have to assassinate Cersei AND Sansa so that both armies could be put to use fighting the weights. In doing so, protecting the realm, and destroying a little bit of herself. Not satying this would happen but, if it did, I would still be on Arya's side. Arya is my favorite stark by far.

Cersei is irredeemable, in my opinion. Many of the other characters have hope yet, but not Cersei. I was thinking during her walk of shame that this might be the beginning to a better path for her, but her delight at finding Ungregor dashed those thoughts from my head. She was humiliated and I only think it will make her worse. I don't even think if she suffered the same fate as Theon, that I could pity her, such is my hate for Cersei.

Roose and Ramsey are both the definition of evil. No redemption possible for them

 

[Fungous]

At the very least, Roose has stood by watching Ramsay commit horrific acts and has done nothing to stop him. Within this context, at the very least, he is guilty by omission rather than commission, and at worst, Roose supports Ramsay's actions, and might even be the one giving the orders to do what he does in order to keep his own hands clean. I am suspicious of the "boys will be boys" attitude. I also think that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and that Ramsay probably learned much and more from Roose. Lastly, let's not forget the sigil of House Bolton.

Point taken. I guess Roose just doesn't scare me. I'm still thinking though that people would re-look Roose if he had a POV chapter and said things like "damn my wife for convincing me of the merits of the Red Wedding... While House Bolton will guard the North better than that Stark boy who would challenge the Southron Kingdoms, Ramsey is no Bolton, he is a Snow, and my Lordly right is to continue my line with a true born son."

I may be biased on Arya. I don't see her as being Dark at all. Grey, of course, but I don't see the faceless men as needing redemption. If you are no one then there is no need for absolution... While Arya has killed, so has every Knight in Westeros!!!! How many men has Barridan the Bold killed both through action and inaction (Aegon)? Yet no one has ever mentioned his needing a shot at redemption. Arya can at least claim self-defense for the stable boy, the Lannisters by the Gods eye, The Flayed Man Guard, The Tickler and his 2 friends. She didn't kill Sandor despite the fact that he deserved it. Oh ya, and the NW Deserter? Ya, she should have cut his head off in front of a weirwood like a true Stark.

 

[The Imp]

Point taken. I guess Roose just doesn't scare me. I'm still thinking though that people would re-look Roose if he had a POV chapter and said things like "damn my wife for convincing me of the merits of the Red Wedding... While House Bolton will guard the North better than that Stark boy who would challenge the Southron Kingdoms, Ramsey is no Bolton, he is a Snow, and my Lordly right is to continue my line with a true born son."

I may be biased on Arya. I don't see her as being Dark at all. Grey, of course, but I don't see the faceless men as needing redemption. If you are no one then there is no need for absolution... While Arya has killed, so has every Knight in Westeros!!!! How many men has Barridan the Bold killed both through action and inaction (Aegon)? Yet no one has ever mentioned his needing a shot at redemption. Arya can at least claim self-defense for the stable boy, the Lannisters by the Gods eye, The Flayed Man Guard, The Tickler and his 2 friends. She didn't kill Sandor despite the fact that he deserved it. Oh ya, and the NW Deserter? Ya, she should have cut his head off in front of a weirwood like a true Stark.

I didn't formulate my thoughts regarding Arya very well, and part of what you say is true.

Arya is no longer the innocent child that she was when the series started. She'll never be pure dark/evil unless she kills Sansa or Jon or someone equally unthinkable, and she has killed people who either deserved it or she had no choice about, but IMO, the killing of the NW deserter (Dareon) was cold blooded murder and something she never would have even dreamed of doing when the series began. Part of her progression as a character has been to become a killing machine, but more disturbing, a one girl judge, jury and executioner. Arya values human life almost as little as Ramsay Bolton does, and that disturbs me.

I say this despite Arya being my favorite character BTW

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Part of her progression as a character has been to become a killing machine, but more disturbing, a one girl judge, jury and executioner. Arya values human life almost as little as Ramsay Bolton does, and that disturbs me.

I say this despite Arya being my favorite character BTW

that is very true. The seriousness of taking a life has gone from Arya. I think the faceless men are actually instilling that back into her, that it should not be easy to take a life. I would still argue that Dareon deserved to die for his desertion from the Nights watch, but Arya didn't actually have to be the one to do it. Personally i would have liked to see Sam do it.

 

[Fungous]

On the one hand I see what you are saying about Arya, however she wanted no part of being a lady, and tbh it was the Martial Arts she wanted and that is what she now gets. It has been a cold, hard, terrible road for her littered with dead bodies but I think you and I both agree that Dareon was out of the norm. Had it been anyone else, I would grudgingly agree with you but no, it was a deserter from the Night's Watch. Let's use her father's words on this:

"In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile." -Eddard Stark, C1B1

With words like that from her father (granted these words were said to Bran, but the overall disposition remains the same) and the uncertain knowledge of her being the last Stark as well as her being the only Westerosii in Braavos to judge and sentence this man, I view the killing as justified. I believe partially that half the reason her faceless mentor was so angry was that this was clearly a Stark move. In my mind this was not cold-blooded murder, but the King's Justice given by a daughter of the True Warden of the North.

Personally, there are times I wish that she would return as the Stark to rule the North but that would mean the death of poor Rickon and helpless Sansa which would be kind of harsh. I guess it should be enough that women warriors are not unheard of in Westeros but there has to be a special role for her and Jon, they were the only two children who bore more of their father than their Tully mother.

 

[Fungous]

that is very true. The seriousness of taking a life has gone from Arya. I think the faceless men are actually instilling that back into her, that it should not be easy to take a life. I would still argue that Dareon deserved to die for his desertion from the Nights watch, but Arya didn't actually have to be the one to do it. Personally i would have liked to see Sam do it.

Sam was not only craven but also chased away from his Lordly roots. IMO it shouldn't be taken as a coincidence that there is a Stark where a man of the Night's Watch deserts, something more like providence.

 

[Needle]

I didn't formulate my thoughts regarding Arya very well, and part of what you say is true.

Arya is no longer the innocent child that she was when the series started. She'll never be pure dark/evil unless she kills Sansa or Jon or someone equally unthinkable, and she has killed people who either deserved it or she had no choice about, but IMO, the killing of the NW deserter (Dareon) was cold blooded murder and something she never would have even dreamed of doing when the series began. Part of her progression as a character has been to become a killing machine, but more disturbing, a one girl judge, jury and executioner. Arya values human life almost as little as Ramsay Bolton does, and that disturbs me.

I say this despite Arya being my favorite character BTW

Hmmmpp! Guess you know what I think of this! Dangerous ground my little friend!

Seriously though, Arya has become a killer yes, but I disagree about her lack of value of human life. With the exception of Daereon (which I will speak more of after Arsten's quote) she has killed to save her own life or those of others in the case of Weasel soup. If she was unable to kill (a problem Sansa may yet face) she would be dead many times over. To compare her to Ramsey is way unfair.

that is very true. The seriousness of taking a life has gone from Arya. I think the faceless men are actually instilling that back into her, that it should not be easy to take a life. I would still argue that Dareon deserved to die for his desertion from the Nights watch, but Arya didn't actually have to be the one to do it. Personally i would have liked to see Sam do it.

I totally agree he deserved to die as a deserter. Anyone in Westeros would be within their rights to execute him according to the laws of the land. Arya. IMHO, was truly, fully Arya of House Stark, of the line of the Kings in the North, when she chose to execute him.

I may be biased on Arya. I don't see her as being Dark at all. Grey, of course, but I don't see the faceless men as needing redemption. If you are no one then there is no need for absolution... While Arya has killed, so has every Knight in Westeros!!!! How many men has Barridan the Bold killed both through action and inaction (Aegon)? Yet no one has ever mentioned his needing a shot at redemption. Arya can at least claim self-defense for the stable boy, the Lannisters by the Gods eye, The Flayed Man Guard, The Tickler and his 2 friends. She didn't kill Sandor despite the fact that he deserved it. Oh ya, and the NW Deserter? Ya, she should have cut his head off in front of a weirwood like a true Stark.

The fact that she didn't kill Sandor, despite him being on her list from when she began it, further proves to me she is not without regard for life.

Oh, and there are very few trees, weirwoods or otherwise on Bravos, sometimes you have to improvise!