How Big??? Chapter Sizes

[Gumboot]

Depends on what you mean by 'success'.

I won't comment on Paolini, whose success seems largely based on his youth and the hype that engendered, but whatever else you say about Meyer, she wrote a book that appealed enormously to its target audience of teenage girls.

But - back on topic - what worked for Meyer's YA romance won't necessarily work for your big fat space opera or whatever. Use similar books as your yardstick, not random bestsellers.

Exactly. My point was really that, despite their enormous financial success, I frankly would never take writing advice from either of them. Taking advice from a random "published" writer seems silly to me. I'd prefer to take advice from a writer who's work I admired, published or not, successful or not.

 

[Gumboot]

Anyway, enough with my silly rant, this topic did get me thinking, and so today I am going back through the completed sections of my WIP to assess chapter length. I have been concerned for some time that they're too long, but has this odd and illogical resistance to high numbers of chapters. I've finally convinced myself that's silly, so I'm going to be looking for anywhere I can reduce chapter size without disrupting the structure.

The added bonus is that I really enjoy coming up with chapter titles, so now I'll get to invent a whole bunch more!

 

[Jake Reynolds]

Oh, me too- I always try to take the chapter name from a phrase in the chapter itself.

 

[JoanDrake]

Depends on what you mean by 'success'.

A small villa on the Cote d'azur, or maybe a vineyard in Tuscany, with a Veyreon in the driveway. It has to have view of the sea, so I can lay by the pool and watch the ocean. Oh, and room for the jet's runway, but just a Lear, nothing fancy.

I just put in the business about 3500 words because that's what the guy said. His justification for it was no more than it kept the reader reading and I've read his stuff and it worked on me.

However, I don't follow his advice. I can't. I write long and short chapters as the action and story dictates

 

[Burl Bird]

A small villa on the Cote d'azur...

etc

Best answer possible

 

[Perpetual Man]

Hmmm, having had the time to do a bit more writing of late I've been able to look at what I'm doing and judge what my chapters stand for in themselves, especially word count.

I'm not sure what Publishers really want when it comes to chapter size, but to me at least it seems wrong to limit a chapter size.

That being said looking at what I have written - the opening chapter of my still annoyingly unnamed WiP - at the time it seemed natural for it to be the length it is. I knew what had to be in it and wrote until it was finished. The fact that it was 13,000 words did not bother me.

But I can see where I could break it down into a few smaller chapters... but my gut instinct goes against it.

My overlarge monster of a book The Castling that Hope is reading the first chapters of, has massive 18,000 page chapters, and these I would find hard to break up into smaller chunks. (But it probably could be done).

On the other hand the second chapter of Mercenary that I have been scanning into digital format, apart from being atrocious is another 18,000 words, but I can't understand why it is so long, looking at what I've done it should be at least four chapters.

But the current chapter in the current WiP stands at 4,000 words, and I'm nowhere near through yet. I can see no way I can make it any shorter, it is basically one long fight. Obviously this should make it fast paced and the reader should not want to put the thing down...

The way I am thinking at the moment is a chapter should be as long as it needs to be. If you are trying to make it reach a set figure each time, then I'd find I was making it artificial.

That's just me

 

[SciFrac]

Perp, I think you should first focus on "progression". If the story keeps unfolding in engaging, unanticipated ways, the chapter lengths will make little difference. On the other hand, you might consider the possibility that your love of epic length chapters might be a minority opinion, and may need to adjust to succeed commercially.

For now, though, I suggest you just write and let the publishers sort it out later.

 

[Perpetual Man]

Perp, I think you should first focus on "progression". If the story keeps unfolding in engaging, unanticipated ways, the chapter lengths will make little difference. On the other hand, you might consider the possibility that your love of epic length chapters might be a minority opinion, and may need to adjust to succeed commercially.

For now, though, I suggest you just write and let the publishers sort it out later.

Superb advice and something I'll stick to. Thanks

 

[Reivax26]

I am encountering a problem. Is it better to focus on one character per chapter or is it better to split it up between them. My WIP came from a rpg campaign that I did a few years ago with some friends in which I DM'd. The problem I am encountering is that I am trying to tell the story of 4 characters at once. There are more than 4 characters in it but the 4 main characters are all equally vital to the storyline over the course of the novel and its hopeful sequels. I have enough material to probably write 4 350+ page books if I wanted but I would rather keep it at 3.

Anyway the problem is I am wanting to change between characters in the chapters and I am beginning to worry that it might not be the best idea. At the same time I don't want the story to move at a snails pace. No one has complained about it among the people that have read what I have so far but its starting to annoy me as I go back and reread it myself.

Advice?

 

[Grinnel]

Four main characters splitting the time between them will be confusing for stupid readers like me.

I would bet your readers are the old D&D crowd.

I suggest you take some liberties with the way the dungeon went and narrow it down to two main characters, either eliminating the others or making sure they are with one of the main characters.

As a DM, it is a royal pain in the butt to have the D&D group split up, and boring for those not involved at any particular time. How did you manage with that many people doing different things for 1200 pages worth of action?

 

[Reivax26]

They started as individual characters and then paired up. After pairing up they joined into one group shortly thereafter. The first book is the only one where they would spend significant time apart from each other and its not that long really. Within the first 100 pages or so they would meet and join together as one group. The general idea behind the story is that 3 of the characters are all on a quest for the same artifact for different reasons. One wants to use it to right a wrong that happened that he feels responsible for, the second intends to use it to heal a beautiful forest that has been turned into a desert and the third wants it for power. The fourth and fifth characters are the gel that binds them together. The fourth wants to escape his endless hunting by assassins and the last one is fed up with being a pawn.

I know that sounds confusing and maybe it is but I managed it for a few hours a night every Wednesday for over a year lol

 

[Warren_Paul]

If they are all in the same group then you really need to pick the deeper story of the three and run with it, using the other two for sub-plots and background details. You can still have their stories in the book but reveal them from the perspective of only one character.

The only time they should each have their own PoV is when they are separated, like at the beginning.

 

[Reivax26]

Thats basically what I had in mind. When they come together as a group then the individual aspects will die off for the most part. I am really wanting the dynamic between the characters to be something that works to better the reading experience. The individual pov's will setup the background and then the group pov will take charge when they are brought together due to the various reasons for each character.

 

[The Judge]

Well, I have two main characters in my SFs but umpteen POV characters, and it's a rare chapter which doesn't have more than one POV in it. I've done that deliberately in a cinematic way so I can get detail of what's happening outside the main characters' knowledge. I have three main characters in my fantasy and again I mostly have chapters which comprise scenes from two of the POVs and on several occasions a chapter with all three of them. So I'm hoping there's no problem with multi-POV chapters! The reason I do it is that I like events to unfold in a largely chronological order, and if I have to jump backwards in time by more than an hour or so between characters I get antsy.

Something that caught my eye, though, Reivax, is that you refer to things moving at a snail's pace if you don't have different POVs per chapter. I'm not sure I understand why you should think that. In fact, I'd have thought it might read more quickly if you chapter-breaked at every POV change, since it would necessarily lead to smaller chapters. (Unless, of course, you were padding to make each chapter a specific length, which isn't a good idea.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

I am encountering a problem. Is it better to focus on one character per chapter or is it better to split it up between them. My WIP came from a rpg campaign that I did a few years ago with some friends in which I DM'd. The problem I am encountering is that I am trying to tell the story of 4 characters at once.

I really struggled with this as well, as I had a standard party of seven characters to deal with. Now I move POV between each of them as necessary, and each protagonist has their own individual emotional goals, conflicts, and questions to face.

It was a real struggle to get anything I was happy with, and in rewriting, I've changed POV for some of the scenes according as to whether they were the most dynamic, or had the most internal conflict to offer.

If you're writing epic fantasy, you'll want to ensure you're well read on authors such as George R R Martin, and Joe Abercrombie, who also deal with different POV's of different characters in the same group, IMO.

As for chapter sizes - I've started making a note of these, and when a scene is significantly longer, I need to go back and ask whether this is really justified. Some information can be moved from one scene to another, where not immediately important.

Just 2c.

 

[Perpetual Man]

Just as a matter of interest and something I just noticed is that in the grand finale to the Wheel of Time Series, A Memory of Light, by Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson the key chapter to the book and I suppose series is the Last Battle.

Talking of long chapters it comes in at a colossal 190 pages... now that is a chapter.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Wheel of time has always had huge chapters, and it's always been ridiculed for them too. Usually the prologue can be sold as a novella - and on several occasions has been. Like Snow, the prologue of Winter's Heart.

 

[prizzley]

Wheel of time has always had huge chapters, and it's always been ridiculed for them too. Usually the prologue can be sold as a novella - and on several occasions has been.

Heartfelt agreement.

 

[Gumboot]

Anyway, enough with my silly rant, this topic did get me thinking, and so today I am going back through the completed sections of my WIP to assess chapter length. I have been concerned for some time that they're too long, but has this odd and illogical resistance to high numbers of chapters. I've finally convinced myself that's silly, so I'm going to be looking for anywhere I can reduce chapter size without disrupting the structure.

The added bonus is that I really enjoy coming up with chapter titles, so now I'll get to invent a whole bunch more!

So I've finished going through my entire first volume, and have found I could realign the chapter breaks so all chapters sit around 3,000 to 6,000 words, and funnily enough I think the book will actually work better like this, although it does mean I have a bunch of extra work to do just to clean a few things up.

 

[Perpetual Man]

So I've finished going through my entire first volume, and have found I could realign the chapter breaks so all chapters sit around 3,000 to 6,000 words, and funnily enough I think the book will actually work better like this, although it does mean I have a bunch of extra work to do just to clean a few things up.

I've been thinking about doing the same thing, although it is only the first chapter that seems to be excessive, the rest are about 5,000 words give or take.

So the question is, is it worth doing it for a chapter that is an introduction and very fast paced?

As far as the WoT chapter goes, I have not reached it yet, but I can see why it is so long, as far as the 14 book series goes it is the key moment of the book, where everything comes to a head (I'd guess) so on the one hand I can understand it; on the other speaking as someone who hates stopping half way through a chapter it's going to be a pain to read!