Epic Fantasy Novel Word Counts

[Brian G Turner]

I've been doing some research into epic fantasy word counts recently, especially to get an idea of debut novel figures over recent years.

Anyway, here's the figures and facts I have so far - looks like big debut novels are anything but unusual in epic fantasy now:

EDIT: General word counts in epic fantasy series included for reference



Lord of the Rings - J. R. R. Tolkien
The Fellowship of the Ring: 187k
The Two Towers: 155k
The Return of the King: 131k


Wheel of Time - Robert Jordan
The Eye of the World: 305k
The Great Hunt: 267k
The Dragon Reborn: 251k
The Shadow Rising: 393k
The Fires of Heaven: 354k
Lord of Chaos: 389k
A Crown of Swords: 295k
The Path of Daggers: 226k
Winter's Heart: 238k
Crossroads of Twilight: 271k
Knife of Dreams: 315k


Gentleman Bastards - Scott Lynch
The Lies of Locke Lamora: 190k
Red Seas under Red Skies: 200k


Joe Abercrombie - First Law (& standalones)
The Blade Itself: 191.2k
Before They Are Hanged: 198.3k
Last Argument of Kings: 234.1k
Best Served Cold: 227.7k
The Heroes: 203.4k
Red Country: 172.1k


Stormlight Archives - Brandon Sanderson
The Way of Kings: 387k


A Song of Ice And Fire - George R. R. Martin
A Game of Thrones: 284k
A Clash of kings: 326k
A Storm of Swords: 404k
A Feast for Crows: 300k


Malazan Book of the Fallen - Steven Erikson
Gardens of the Moon: 209k
Deadhouse Gates: 272k
Memories of Ice: 358k
House of Chains: 306k
Midnight Tides: 270k
The Bonehunters: 365k
Reaper's Gale: 386k
Toll the Hounds: 392k
Dust of Dreams: 382k
The Crippled God: 385k


Demon Trilogy - Peter V Brett
The Painted Man - 158,000
The Demon Spear - 240,000


King Killer Chronicles - Patrick Rothfuss
Name of the Wind - 259,000
Wise Man's Fear - 399,000.


Night Angel trilogy - Brent Weeks
Way of Shadows: 156k


Prince of Nothing Trilogy - R. Scott Bakker

The Darkness that Comes Before: 175k
The Warrior-Prophet: 205k
The Thousandfold Thought: 139k


A Land Fit for Heroes(?) – Richard Morgan
The Steel Remains: 146k
The Cool Commands: 171k


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever – Stephen R. Donaldson
The First Chronicles
Lord Foul’s Bane: 165k
The Illearth War: 180k
The Power That Preserves: 168k


The Wars of Light and Shadow – Janny Wurts
Curse of the Mistwraith: 233k
Ships of Merior: 206k
Warhost of Vastmark: 156k
Fugitive Prince: 220k
Grand Conspiracy: 235k
Peril’s Gate: 300k
Traitor’s Knot: 220k
Stormed Fortress: 248k
Initiate’s Trial: 250k

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Sorry, brian, how many of these are debut? Martin, i am pretty sure had other stuff published before and way of kings was published well after Sanderson was established? Tolkien was published decades ago, and was already an established academic author, and the hobbit, which i think predates? was significantly shorter. Similarly, jordan's wheel of time was first published decades ago.
If we want this to give us a guideline of what is currently accepted, Rothfuss is a good example but we need to be lookng at Lawrence, short and snappy, Beckett, mid range, Mievielle, Lore, whose stuff is short, and current market trends, gayle Martin, Cavanan. What do theirs fall under?

 

[Tirellan]

Having just returned from a 'meet the agent' event, I would like to reiterate the point that all these word count guidelines are exactly that - guidelines.
However, if your manuscript significantly deviates from the guidelines, then every single extra word has to be essential to the story.
It is hard enough to gain an agent's attention with a manuscript that is within the guidelines. The further out you are, the better your manuscript has to be.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Martin, i am pretty sure had other stuff published before

Very true. Martin was being nominated for Hugos and Nebulas for his short fiction as far back as the '70s. He was a very familiar name to readers (at least in the US) for his work in television and as an editor. He'd also had a few novels published before ASOIAF, so hardly a debut author. It may be that he was relatively unknown in the UK.

But yes, there are debut authors who write very, very long books. I'm sure that the editors are confident when they buy them that the books will be very, very big hits.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Lord of the Rings - J. R. R. Tolkien
The Fellowship of the Ring: 187k

Tolkien's debut novel wasn't Fellowship of the Ring... It was The Hobbit in 1937 - although he had done a lot of non-fiction before that, and poetry.

The Hobbit had a word count of 95k

Wheel of Time - Robert Jordan
The Eye of the World: 305k

Robert Jordan's debut novel was not The Eye of the World. It was The Fallon Blood, writen back in 1980. He went on to write the Conan books before Eye of the World. The Wheel of Time was his third fantasy novel series.

I can't find the word count for The Fallon Blood, but it's page count is 381 so I'm guessing it's under 100k.

Stormlight Archives - Brandon Sanderson
The Way of Kings: 387k

Not couting the WoT books, The Way of Kings is his most recent publication. Brandon Sanderson's debut novel was Elantris, but Brandon Sanderson commented in an interview that when the editor asked for a copy of Elantris, they didn't know it was going to be 200k. Apparently it sat in the corner of a room unread for 18 months because the size had put the editor off. While this shows its possible to have a massive book published, it still hindered his chances.

A Song of Ice And Fire - George R. R. Martin
A Game of Thrones: 284k

GRRM has been around a long time before he wrote A Game of Thrones. His debut novel was Dying of the Light. Can't find a word count, but it was only 288 pages in paperback, so hardly a huge word count. Not to mention all the screenplays and short stories he wrote that came before A Game of Thrones.

Malazan Book of the Fallen - Steven Erikson
Gardens of the Moon: 209k

Now Steven Lundin, or Steven Erikson as we know him, didn't start in fantasy. His debut novel was This River Awakens. I couldn't find the word count, but the book is only 359 pages, so far smaller than his later books. I don't think that counts though. Gardens of the Moon was his second novel and his first foray into fantasy. So I think we get away with this being on the list.

In regards to the rest, it is all accurate, and they are their debut novels. So it shows, if the book is good enough, the word count doesn't matter. But note, all of those authors made big names for themselves. I think the quality of their writing outweighed the word count issue. So if you want to write a big book, you better make sure every word is damn well worth it.

 

[Hex]

Just a mini-addition -- a couple of weeks ago on #askagent on twitter, four or five agents (including three who represent sff) were talking about word counts.

The feeling seemed to be that anything over 120-140,000 would tend to make their eyes glaze over. Not always, absolutely, but something longer would need to be stellar.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Ahem, use your thinking caps, people - I have a few debut novels so far on the list, the other works are for reference, and this is still a work in progress.

What it does show is that both established and new authors show a trend of larger wordcounts - Abercrombie, Lynch, and Rothfuss do not appear to have been told to cut down to a specific size, though Scott Lynch told me his wordcounts were contracted. Rothfuss says (linked in the Sequels thread) that for his sequel he was told not to produce the longest ever novel - hence why Wise Man's Fear came in at 400k and not higher.

A lot does seem dependent on the publisher though - I haven't drilled down through the figures as yet, but there appear to be publishers who prefer smaller works (ie, I'm told Elizabeth Bear is contracted to 110k per book from Tor, but DAW seems especially unfazed by fat word counts).

I'm basically just trying to put as much information as possible that may be useful in the original list.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just a mini-addition -- a couple of weeks ago on #askagent on twitter, four or five agents (including three who represent sff) were talking about word counts.

The feeling seemed to be that anything over 120-140,000 would tend to make their eyes glaze over. Not always, absolutely, but something longer would need to be stellar.

Each subgenre seems to have very different demands. Epic fantasy is it's own beast. As that's what I plan to submit to, I'm very focused in that area.

So far, an epic fantasy debut under 180k appears unusual. Agents talking about 140-150k are being very general, I think.

 

[Mouse]

I don't read these fat books anymore, they bore me. I've got ADWD sitting unread on my shelf and I think it'll probably stay that way. I can't see why the book would need to be that thick.

I'm glad this is epic fantasy wordcounts though, cos otherwise it'd worry me!

 

[Brian G Turner]

If we want this to give us a guideline of what is currently accepted, Rothfuss is a good example but we need to be lookng at Lawrence, short and snappy, Beckett, mid range, Mievielle, Lore, whose stuff is short, and current market trends, gayle Martin, Cavanan. What do theirs fall under?

You're referencing the entire range of fantasy there, though - high fantasy, low fantasy, new weird and YA.

For epic fantasy I would refer to the names in the OP: GRRM, Abercrombie, Lynch, Rothfuss, Sanderson, Erikson, etc.

 

[Boneman]

Ahem, use your thinking caps, people - I have a few debut novels so far on the list, the other works are for reference, and this is still a work in progress.

What it does show is that both established and new authors show a trend of larger wordcounts - Abercrombie, Lynch, and Rothfuss do not appear to have been told to cut down to a specific size, though Scott Lynch told me his wordcounts were contracted. Rothfuss says (linked in the Sequels thread) that for his sequel he was told not to produce the longest ever novel - hence why Wise Man's Fear came in at 400k and not higher.

A lot does seem dependent on the publisher though - I haven't drilled down through the figures as yet, but there appear to be publishers who prefer smaller works (ie, I'm told Elizabeth Bear is contracted to 110k per book from Tor, but DAW seems especially unfazed by fat word counts).

I'm basically just trying to put as much information as possible that may be useful in the original list.

And it's danged useful - thanks I, Brian!! When you're asked to say who your work is similar to, this kind of thing (especially since I said Joe Abercrombie...) is really useful. I think I'll try and find Brent Weeks word counts.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

But, ahem, using my thinking cap tells me that these are all established authors and once I am established - ha! - i, too, might get the leeway to produce an epic piece of work should I choose to do so. Ergo, since the thread specifically says this is info for debut books, I think it is very misleading to anyone dropping in.
The bottom line is if you take these figures as a guideline when you are starting out you limit your market, you limit yourself to specialist sff agents, and you give yourself less chance to succeed.
In fact, I would argue that these figures tell me the opposite of what you mean, and that only a handful of successful sff authors are succeeding in putting out such long works, and if you are an aspiring sff author with something at 200k to give yourself the best chance possible, it would be better to edit it down, if you can, or split it into two books.

Edit: lots of posting while I waffled on. You're right, Brian, that I was going across all the genres, and epic does run longer than any others. But I still think setting this as the benchmark for a debut novel makes it harder to break into publishing. I think it's also interesting that Sanderson is on record suggesting that starting with an epic fantasy book is a daunting prospect and one he wouldn't recommend, that it was his 14th book that finally got published. I take my hat off to all those trying to achieve it.

 

[Hex]

Each subgenre seems to have very different demands. Epic fantasy is it's own beast. As that's what I plan to submit to, I'm very focused in that area.

So far, an epic fantasy debut under 180k appears unusual. Agents talking about 140-150k are being very general, I think.

I know one of the agents who reckoned her eyes glazed over at 140,000 is specifically looking for epic fantasy (but she did say it wouldn't stop her reading -- she's very open to stuff -- I just got the impression it would be tougher to interest her in something over about 140,000).

It's worth pointing out that the "sweet spot" for fantasy, according to most of the posts in blogs/ comments by agents etc seems to be longer than other genres but still about 100,000-120,000.

e.g. http://theswivet.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/on-word-counts-and-novel-length.html puts epic fantasy at 90-120k

Writers Digest reckons 100,000-115,000 for fantasy but says it's probably ok up to 124,000.

and BookEnds (and here) reckons fantasy can run as high as 125,000. I assume it's epic at the top end of the range.

Except The Swivet, these are American sources and I know in the US books tends to be shorter than in the UK. Nonetheless, perhaps a debut author might be best aiming for something in the 100,000-120,000 range rather than 200,000+.

@Brian -- you clearly know far more about epic fantasy than I do, since I don't write it and everything I've heard has been kind of in passing, so I'll be quiet now

 

[Brian G Turner]

I know one of the agents who reckoned her eyes glazed over at 140,000 is specifically looking for epic fantasy

I cannot find an epic fantasy debut published in the past 5 years that was as small as that. The lowest wordcount I have so far is Brent Weeks at 156k with Way of Shadows.

It may be the case of defining "epic fantasy" in different ways. I should hope by the authors I've listed in the original post I'm very illustrative of what I'm talking about.

Maybe in the USA anything with elves and goblins in is called "epic fantasy", but so far as I'm aware, that part of the market is effectively dead in the UK has been for years.

Before starting this thread I found a blog post from an agent making generalisations on post counts in fantasy - the first comments were from Joe Abercrombie and Douglas Hullick pointing out themselves and the other authors they debuted with never came in under 180k. Can't find the link at the moment, though!

 

[Erin99]

I handed a 135,000-word MS to JJ back in 2008 (for editing purposes). He never said I had a problem with word count... I'm sure I've heard him say a few times that in epic fantasy, longer books are fine and, indeed, preferred in the genre in the UK. The version of that book which I'm writing now might even be longer, but that doesn't put me off. I think it will be action-packed and engaging all the way through, if I can do it right... (if!!!) My partner's also writing a giiiiiant novel (think near 200k), an epic fantasy, and he says there's no way he can condense the word count because there's simply too much going on in the plot... We'll see what it's like once he finishes it, though. (And when he finishes it, since uni is in the way. )

TBH, however, I'll say what I always say: if you write a jaw-dropping story with great and loveable characters, clear writing, and no fluff/padding, as long as it's highly commercial, an agent or editor is not going to refuse you. If the worst came to the worst and your book was deemed too long, wouldn't a publisher just split it into two volumes or such?

 

[Hex]

I don't know how page count compares to word count (but The Lies of Locke Lamora at 190,000 words is 544 pages). I'm also a bit shaky on what epic fantasy is... so maybe ignore me

Anyhow:

As well as The Prince of Thorns (324 pages), other debuts in the last five years include: Daniel Polansky's Low Town (368 pages), The Emperor's Knife by Mazarkis Williams (388 pages) and Geist by Philippa Ballantine (304 pages).

That's just from a quick zip through Amazon and, as I said, I'm a bit wobbly on what epic fantasy really is and how significant page numbers are.

 

[Erin99]

Epic fantasy = fantasy that's epic in scope. Fantasy that combines many countries/counties/worlds/races, etc, and usually has a very world-changing plot that may mean the characters can never go back to how they once were, because they've changed so much as well as the world around them.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Btw, apologies if I wasn't clear about differentiating between debut novels and established authors in the original post - I figured anyone who was researching would already know which was which. I appreciate I may not have been clear in that.

Also, has anyone noticed that if you search for a popular author on Google, if there's an information box on the right, it will show related authors? Click on any of those, and you will get a scroll bar across the top of other authors in the same genre you can click through?

Here you go.

I appreciate Google does not define writing genres, but so far the epic fantasy authors are very much in line with my own research - hopefully might be of help for locating useful authors in other subgenres.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

My thought is that if you are an unknown and this is your first book and you're submitting it to agents, you want to be as close as you can to their guidelines. If they say they top out and one twenty, so should you. Otherwise you're just making problems for yourself.

Once you're established in some way, you can do what you want more or less.

Having said this my epic fantasies run from 140k to 250k - so perhaps I should add - Do as I say not as I do!!!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Brian G Turner]

My thought is that if you are an unknown and this is your first book and you're submitting it to agents, you want to be as close as you can to their guidelines.

True, but agents also tell us to look at what is being debuted in our subgenre over the past few years to see what publishers are buying.

And in epic fantasy, it appears that books of around 200k words are quite acceptable - however, different publishers have different preferred lengths. I haven't seen any doorstoppers from Angry Robot books, for example.

So, in a way, if you are going this way, you may be reducing your publishing opportunities by going beyond what some publishers are comfortable with.

All the more reason to ensure that your book is especially well written!!