Epic Fantasy Novel Word Counts

[devaed]

My first ever book was 225k

Most o it , while I loved it, did not need to be there.

225k -- if your writing is tight (this will show in your UK sub/US query), and every scene needs to be there then you have a chance

If not, you don't

Sounds simple. But you perhaps (I did ) need some space from your MS, before you go back and look at every scene, every sentence.
Thta 225k mammoth I had? I cut that sucker to 110k

Sold it

Won a small award

Look at it. Really . Study it. STUDY OTHER BOOKS IN YOUR GENRE. Does this NEED to be here (no, a "scene explaining how X thing works" does not count, slide it into another scene! No, you do not need a page to describe the scene before you get to the action!)

I'll bet you can cut

Bet you a tenner

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is why first time authors saying they have more than 120k words are pretty much shunned by agents and publishers - most have enormous amounts of cuts that they can make. Unfortunately for me, my manuscript is at 225k after beta readers, a professional critique from a best-selling author (who liked it enough to pass on to an agent), and a year of almost full time editing. It was originally at about 255k - there may well be a way to cut it further, but if there is, it's currently beyond my ability as a writer.

A good rule of thumb I was told is that every scene should be pushing the story forward in at least two ways, preferably three. A scene that's just world-building has no place in the story; a scene that's just there for character development has no place in the story; a scene that's just action for the sake of action has no place in the story. Every scene in your book shouldn't just be serving a purpose - it should be serving multiple purposes at once.

Having said that, not all published books (at least in the fantasy genre) are actually great examples of this. In fact, very few of them truly do it well, even the most popular ones - which is also why I think first-time authors often fall into those common traps. For example, I'd never cite GRRM as a good example of making every word matter. And I recently read The Lies Of Locke Lomora, another popular long-ish fantasy - and though I enjoyed it, I also found myself skipping literally pages of text (on a Kindle, admittedly) that really didn't need to be there.

So I guess what I'd add to your comment, Kissmequick, is that studying other books in your genre is a good idea, not only for how they do things right - but also to recognise and avoid what they do wrong!

 

[WriterJosh]

My first ever book was 225k

Most o it , while I loved it, did not need to be there.

225k -- if your writing is tight (this will show in your UK sub/US query), and every scene needs to be there then you have a chance

If not, you don't

Sounds simple. But you perhaps (I did ) need some space from your MS, before you go back and look at every scene, every sentence.
Thta 225k mammoth I had? I cut that sucker to 110k

Sold it

Won a small award

Look at it. Really . Study it. STUDY OTHER BOOKS IN YOUR GENRE. Does this NEED to be here (no, a "scene explaining how X thing works" does not count, slide it into another scene! No, you do not need a page to describe the scene before you get to the action!)

I'll bet you can cut

Bet you a tenner

No bet, but I'm not done editing yet. During the process, I have yet to come across a section that I truly felt was unnecessary. Maybe I do need some space from it for a while; I don't know.

But like I said in another thread, I've been reading it out loud to my wife, and she is NOT someone who will just tell me what I want to hear. She doesn't read much fantasy, and what she's read before has always fell on the smaller book side. She tried reading The Eye of the World and Wizard's First Rule several years ago, but put both down quickly.

I have asked her repeatedly if I'm giving too much detail, or if any part drags with no plot progression or character development, or if there's any part she feels needs to just go. She has always said no. She has pointed out numerous mistakes I've made, including characters having an out-of-character moment, plus clunky sentences, confusing dialogue, etc. so I know she's not just placating me.

But still, I'm only about a third done the editing process. And, as devead pointed out, my novel isn't exactly a doorstopper as it is.

 

[WriterJosh]

132k is only just past that upper limit, so hopefully you'll get at least some agents other than those two willing to have a look. I eventually got a form rejection from both of them - not unexpected, but disappointing of course. I do have one agent in the US who liked the partial and is interested in reading the whole thing when she's taking on clients again, but I got a lot of help in the form of a referral directly from one of her favourite authors - without that, I suspect my word count may have done me in there, too.

If you don't mind my asking, what did John Jarrold say was the reason he couldn't take you on?

My most frustrating experience so far came with my horror novel that I completed earlier this year. I should explain. I started writing that novel in 2008. I wrote six chapters and hit a wall. Then I wrote a few more and hit a wall. In early 2013 I was at a point where I considered myself finished with the rising action and it was time to write the climax. So I did, and then I came across an upstart "publisher" called Darkscream Publications. They had literally only just started and were looking for as much work as they could get their hands on. They had initially been a writer-promotion/editing/review group, and they wanted to branch out into publishing as well. They even signed a few people. And then their funding fell through.

Now, some have warned me that they were probably a scam that just wanted to get their hands on my book. The problem with that theory is that 1) None of my research about this group came up with warnings that they were a rip-off organization, 2) They were remarkably up-front for a group of scam-artists, the editor I conversed with going as far as to request my friendship on Facebook, 3) They never asked me for money or hinted that they would and 4) Scam artists aren't out to steal your story, and it wouldn't make sense if they did because there's no guarantee they can sell your story even with their (or someone else's) name on it; instead they mostly want to part you with more and more of your money while making empty promises.

But the prospect of them taking on my MS caused me to work and work until I was done. I admit, it still needed editing when I submitted it. Rookie mistake, and the reason I haven't started shopping that one around is that I AM taking some space from that one, and when I go back to edit it, I'll have a renewed perspective.

Almost as soon as I finished that one, I had a short story idea that I submitted to Tor.com. I have no idea when I'll hear back from them, because they warn on their submissions page that they are slooooooow to respond. In the meanwhile, I had an idea for a high fantasy story and immediately began work on the background and outline. And then, as soon as I was finished, I started writing it. I wrote 3204 words that first day, and decided that every day after that, I would write AT LEAST that much, even if I it took me all day to do it (ie: walking away from it for a while). It worked. A month and a half later, I was done, and had a story I thought was worthy of submission, which is rare for me. You have no idea how many times I've started writing something, decided it sucked, and quit. Once I even finished a novel, started editing it, realized the novel was crap, and quit.

 

[Anne Lyle]

My novel is 132K+. I'm actually concerned that I might be turned down for that reason.

I doubt it. My first one (The Alchemist of Souls) was 128k on first submission, and by the time I'd completed my editor's requested changes it was 140k. Angry Robot didn't bat an eyelid.

In my experience, in the UK market anything in the 100-150k range is OK in epic fantasy - that is, it's not so huge that the agent/editor will balk at the length. They may ask you to trim it down if it's at the long end of that range, but chopping 10% off a manuscript isn't hard and hence isn't a show-stopper.

OTOH, anything much over 150k (and certainly over 200k) and it has to be Joe Abercrombie/Scott Lynch levels of awesome, rather than merely excellent

 

[WriterJosh]

I doubt it. My first one (The Alchemist of Souls) was 128k on first submission, and by the time I'd completed my editor's requested changes it was 140k. Angry Robot didn't bat an eyelid.

In my experience, in the UK market anything in the 100-150k range is OK in epic fantasy - that is, it's not so huge that the agent/editor will balk at the length. They may ask you to trim it down if it's at the long end of that range, but chopping 10% off a manuscript isn't hard and hence isn't a show-stopper.

OTOH, anything much over 150k (and certainly over 200k) and it has to be Joe Abercrombie/Scott Lynch levels of awesome, rather than merely excellent

Okay, I feel a little better now, at least about the word count.

Another problem I have is comparing myself to the greats (like the two you just named, and others) and feeling like I fall well short of that mark. Maybe I do, and maybe I'm too hard on myself.

 

[Anne Lyle]

It is hard to judge - has anyone read it apart from yourself? And by that I mean someone who's not a doting parent/BFF/SO

 

[WriterJosh]

It is hard to judge - has anyone read it apart from yourself? And by that I mean someone who's not a doting parent/BFF/SO

I have a friend who is a published novelist and playwright and she tells it like it is. She read my horror novel and sent back a marked-up edited copy, but told me that as far as she's concerned it was a gripping, exciting story that kept her engaged and had characters that were fully developed. I haven't had her read the fantasy one yet, mainly because I don't want her to start thinking that I think she's my editing "bitch" and that I'll expect her to drop everything and proofread/edit/review my work whenever I desire it. She's a busy gal herself. But she's brutally honest and has never been one for sugar-coating anything. She told me pretty bluntly which parts needed to be re-worked and which ones might be over-the-top. So, if she's gonna finish by telling me that she ultimately thought it was good work, I believe her.

I'd love a review of my present work, but other than her, I don't know whose opinion to trust. I don't want someone who will butter me up, and anyone close to me I always suspect is doing just that. But others expect me to pay them a reading fee.

 

[devaed]

If you don't mind my asking, what did John Jarrold say was the reason he couldn't take you on?

John's response was a form letter (a very nice, generally encouraging one), so it didn't give any specifics - the gist was that he only takes on the very rare manuscript that he absolutely loves, this manuscript wasn't one of those, but that the business is very subjective so keep on trying etc.

I think most agents will say much the same thing in terms of having to 'love' the manuscript to take it on - the theory being that they need to be passionate about a project if they're going to sell it to a publisher. To be honest, I have no idea how much of that is the truth, and how much of it is just assuaging rejected writers' bruisied egos... though I do think in John's case at least, the sentiment is genuine.

 

[Anne Lyle]

It's true that agents have to love a project to sell it, and to that extent the sentiment is genuine. Where yours came on the scale of "this is unsellable <--> near miss" is impossible to tell with a form letter - sadly, agents can't afford to get into conversation with rejected writers as there are too many loonies out there! All you can do is continue submitting - if you get nothing but form rejections, that's your clue that either the writing needs work or the concept is just not commercial enough to be worth an agent's time.

 

[devaed]

I'd love a review of my present work, but other than her, I don't know whose opinion to trust. I don't want someone who will butter me up, and anyone close to me I always suspect is doing just that. But others expect me to pay them a reading fee.

I've heard good things about John's editing business (though of course, you would have to pay for that - I have no idea what the rates are). But he's someone who's been in the industry for a long time and so could give you a serious critique, if shelling out the cash for it was an option. There's also someone else on the Chrons who performs a similar service - Teresa Edgerton, I think? She's apparently quite good as well, though again, I say this from things I've read rather than any personal experience.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I'd love a review of my present work, but other than her, I don't know whose opinion to trust. I don't want someone who will butter me up, and anyone close to me I always suspect is doing just that. But others expect me to pay them a reading fee.

This is where writing groups come in (either on- or offline). In a halfway decent writing group, the other writers won't butter you up, though they might be a little more gentle with their criticism than a complete stranger. All my beta readers are other authors, generally at a similar level in their career to me.

(I've noticed they're a lot harder on me now I'm published - I guess they think my ego can take it!)

 

[devaed]

It's true that agents have to love a project to sell it, and to that extent the sentiment is genuine. Where yours came on the scale of "this is unsellable <--> near miss" is impossible to tell with a form letter - sadly, agents can't afford to get into conversation with rejected writers as there are too many loonies out there! All you can do is continue submitting - if you get nothing but form rejections, that's your clue that either the writing needs work or the concept is just not commercial enough to be worth an agent's time.

Hmm, perhaps it's just that agents are just more free with the word 'love' than I would be Personally, I can think of maybe five books I've read in my entire life that I would describe that way....

 

[WriterJosh]

Hmm, perhaps it's just that agents are just more free with the word 'love' than I would be Personally, I can think of maybe five books I've read in my entire life that I would describe that way....

Yeah, me too. For that matter, when I read that, I thought of all the abysmal books I've read that managed to not only get published, but published by a major house in hard cover with a major promotional push. I think back and think "someone LOVED that? Really? Or just saw it as marketable?"

Not that I'm questioning you, Anne. But, boy, I just hope I've written something loveable.

 

[WriterJosh]

I've heard good things about John's editing business (though of course, you would have to pay for that - I have no idea what the rates are). But he's someone who's been in the industry for a long time and so could give you a serious critique, if shelling out the cash for it was an option. There's also someone else on the Chrons who performs a similar service - Teresa Edgerton, I think? She's apparently quite good as well, though again, I say this from things I've read rather than any personal experience.

Wow. See, I've talked to one of the authors Jarrold represents, and he says that one of the things that makes him unique is that he actually will respond and tell you what it was that made him turn you down.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Maybe it was true in the past - I know he's been very busy of late, and much slower in responding than he used to be. FWIW, he never answered my query (though to be fair I acquired an agent before I got around to chasing JJ up on a response).

 

[HareBrain]

Wow. See, I've talked to one of the authors Jarrold represents, and he says that one of the things that makes him unique is that he actually will respond and tell you what it was that made him turn you down.

Not in my experience, or those of others I know. (Not that I emailed back asking for an explanation, mind.)

There's also someone else on the Chrons who performs a similar service - Teresa Edgerton, I think? She's apparently quite good as well, though again, I say this from things I've read rather than any personal experience.

Teresa is good. I've used both her and JJ (on different MS) and I'd definitely say Teresa was better value, being both less expensive and more thorough, and with at least as good an insight into plot, characters etc. She might lack JJ's industry-insider knowledge, which I guess some people are prepared to pay a premium for, but that's about it.

But I think, unless there's a gold mine in your back garden or something, you're better off making friends with other writers and exchanging MS at some point down the line, before hiring professional editors

 

[Anne Lyle]

Yeah, me too. For that matter, when I read that, I thought of all the abysmal books I've read that managed to not only get published, but published by a major house in hard cover with a major promotional push. I think back and think "someone LOVED that? Really? Or just saw it as marketable?"

Depends when it was published. Not so long ago, few beginning SFF writers bothered with agents, because the relevant publishing houses read their slushpiles. Nowadays it's almost impossible to get your manuscript in front of an editor without either an agent or some canny in-person networking*.

Though I think that both agents and editors have to balance "love" with "commercially viable". Sometimes "love" is shorthand for "I know a market that will love this, which makes me a happy agent/editor"


* aka late-night drinking in the convention bar

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I did get some feedback with my last book from John in rejection email. Basically there was little wrong with the opening pages, or anything he'd put his finger on and say go and fix it, but it didn't connect with him. For Inish I got a form, so I knew the difference.

Personally, I wouldn't use a professional edit in advance of critiques and writing groups. You're shelling out a lot of money, and you want it to be worthwhile, so the better the project, the more bang for your buck. (a la what Harebrain said. Also, I'd second his reccomendation of Teresa.)

The other thing; go in and critique others. That's where you learn your editing skills.

And, canny networking, eh? I can do that. Especially in bars.

Edit; lots of agents will tell send personalised rejections. But they only do it for something that grabbed their attention in the first place.

Another edit: Anne, our writing group are all much harder on each other now than before. it's because we keep getting more confident in what we present, so it's the real nitpicky stuff that stands out.

 

[WriterJosh]

Depends when it was published. Not so long ago, few beginning SFF writers bothered with agents, because the relevant publishing houses read their slushpiles. Nowadays it's almost impossible to get your manuscript in front of an editor without either an agent or some canny in-person networking*.

Though I think that both agents and editors have to balance "love" with "commercially viable". Sometimes "love" is shorthand for "I know a market that will love this, which makes me a happy agent/editor"


* aka late-night drinking in the convention bar

Actually, I was referring to a book that I feel is complete excrement, and I know a lot of people who agree. It was published in the early 90's...through an agent. According to the author, in an interview, the agent just loved the book and thought it was the greatest thing in years. Now, this may have just been the author's ego putting words in the agent's mouth, but if the agent did truly "love" this book...well, I just don't know what I'll think if I can't get an agent to "love" mine.

 

[WriterJosh]

Many of the suggestions, like going to cons and networking, just aren't options at present for me. It's nothing to do with enthusiasm, either. Enthusiasm won't put money in my hand for a plane ticket, and time off work will do nothing if I can't afford to go to these places.

Writing groups are an idea, but I was in one a long while ago and I discovered something about the one I was in.

-No one in the group was a published writer, but several of them behaved as though they knew the writing trade inside and out and their opinion was more valuable than anyone else in the group.

-Practically no one in the group ever wrote anything but short stories, and few, if any, even finished those!

-Feedback was generally very nit-picky, and occasionally took the form of "well, I don't like fantasy, so I couldn't get into your story" or "I would have written a completely different take on this subject, so that's what you should have written."

What I would love, but can't get without paying for it, is for a published writer to read and critique/review my work.