Epic Fantasy Novel Word Counts

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes, if a publisher thinks a book is too long, they can always ask the writer to divide it, but I've met a lot of people here (not in this thread, I hasten to add, and usually not people who stick around here long) who act like they would go to scaffold or die on the rack before they'd cut their books in half. I think it's good to be prepared to be flexible on that point. (And maybe we won't be asked to be.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

Patrick Rothfuss mentions in one of his blog posts how even his first book was divided in different countries - in one European country, it was sold in two parts, and in South Korea, sold in three. He mentioned that in response to someone from Germany complaining the sequel was going to be sold in two parts when they'd had a single volume for the first, so he was pointing out that this was not the norm for a number of countries.

 

[Tirellan]

Except The Swivet, these are American sources and I know in the US books tends to be shorter than in the UK.

Just noting that The Swivet is also a US (former) agent

 

[Anne Lyle]

Epic fantasy = fantasy that's epic in scope. Fantasy that combines many countries/counties/worlds/races, etc, and usually has a very world-changing plot that may mean the characters can never go back to how they once were, because they've changed so much as well as the world around them.

In that case, my current series definitely qualifies

So, adding another data point, my debut novel The Alchemist of Souls was 140,000 words by the time I'd completed the publisher-requested additions - my contract specifies a slightly lower maximum word-count for each book, but it's a guideline, not a rigid stipulation. FWIW, my publisher is UK-based, though they print and distribute in the US as well.

I think I may be the only author of epic fantasy whose sequel was actually shorter (132k) than the first book!

 

[MattC]

True, but agents also tell us to look at what is being debuted in our subgenre over the past few years to see what publishers are buying.

And in epic fantasy, it appears that books of around 200k words are quite acceptable - however, different publishers have different preferred lengths. I haven't seen any doorstoppers from Angry Robot books, for example.

So, in a way, if you are going this way, you may be reducing your publishing opportunities by going beyond what some publishers are comfortable with.

All the more reason to ensure that your book is especially well written!!

Very true, and interesting post, I,Brian.

It confirms what many of us suspect when we look along the SF/Fantasy shelves finding those hefty bricks staring back at us (where the author's name is often written horizontally across the spine, not vertically!).

What would be also interesting would be a look at Epic Fantasy's market-share as a sub-genre. Obviously George RR Martin's recent success will have done much to increase it, but what about other writers? And how is that market-share driven or undermined by word count?

And while it would be near impossible to do here, it would also be interesting to see what percentage of debut Epic Fantasies with these word counts are taken on by agents/publishers in relation to that market-share.
I suspect very few and much less.

Unfortunately, despite resurgence of the genre, publishers (and therefore agents) have restricted resources. A debut book that is flawed, but nonetheless enjoyable, is more of problem if it is 300k words long, than a 120k word book. You're looking at more than twice the resource to edit, copy-edit, proof-read, and then traditionally print, not to mention persuading a bookseller to provide shelf-space. And then there is price: who will shell out £12 for a paperback of someone they've never heard of? But in order to make up for the shelf-space (taking up the same space as two £8 priced paperbacks) it will be assumed they will have to achieve that.
As you say, the economy of words very much dictates whether your book is financially viable.

Sadly, most of us submitting books will never really know.

~​

Having said all that, I stand by the method that the plot/story dictates the length of the book, not the genre or editorial expectations. Cutting a book down, or padding one out is being dishonest to yourself, your readers (maybe even your characters!!).

Unless you are writing purely to get paid, and then you'll forever be a slave to assumptions and the editorial hatchet (and probably heaps of disappointment)

 

[Erin99]

In that case, my current series definitely qualifies

Hmmm. I'm not sure. Epic fantasy usually takes place on a second world, with a huge cast of characters. I can't think of any that's based on Earth which is not just classed as "epic in scope" rather than "epic fantasy".

I'd say yours is an historical fantasy with an urban twist, if it takes place in a city or cities, since I'm not sure the term "alternate history" covers fantasy.

 

[Anne Lyle]

True enough - but the scope of a novel affects word-count. Mine is at the low end of "epic" word count precisely because it's set in the known world and therefore doesn't require as much explanation as a secondary world. OTOH it's a long way from, say, contemporary UF, and hence needs to be longer than a typical book of that genre.

I generally describe it as "historical fantasy" because the history element is pretty central, and it's an easily understood label

 

[devaed]

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I started sending out queries for my 225k word epic fantasy a few weeks ago, so thought I'd contribute my experience thus far.

I did a lot of research on which agents I thought would be a match for my book, then picked out four - two from the US, two from the UK. The US agencies accepted query letters only, and they quickly came back with rejections. One was a form letter, the other stated that the book did sound interesting, but the word count was simply too high for them to consider it. Both these agencies have strong rosters of epic fantasy authors, but many of those seem to have signed after they'd had their first novel published.

One agency in the UK (Zeno) asked for a partial after I queried them, but with a strong caveat in their response - they basically said to be aware that manuscripts of that size were all but impossible to sell from first-time authors, and that the standard was around 100k. So they were giving me fair warning to expect a rejection, but at least leaving the door open in case my writing absolutely blew them away.

The other UK agent I submitted to was John Jarrold, who asks for a sample straight up. Based on what I've read, I'm confident that if he sends me a rejection, it will be for reasons other than the word count.

So: my general, admittedly still very limited, experience backs up what I've read elsewhere - that if you have a well-edited manuscript that still has a high word count, a) you're going to need to be damn good to get an agent, but it's possible, and b) aim to submit to the UK first. It's not that length isn't an issue for UK agents too, but they seem more willing to have a look at your writing before saying no - I think that's why many UK agencies ask for sample pages on the first submission, whereas few of the US agencies do. My impression that if a US agent sees your word count is higher than x, it's an automatic rejection before they ever look at your work.

Having said all that... I'm still pretty new to all this, so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. Anyone with a conflicting experience, please feel free to disagree!

 

[devaed]

Oh, and out of curiosity - does anybody know of any (good/successful) epic fantasy that is actually around 100k words? That's the genre I primarily like to read, and if I'm in the bookshop, I won't even glance at books that look too short. Am I missing out by doing that? The few shorter fantasies I've read in the past never really clicked with me for some reason, but maybe I just haven't been directed to the right ones...

 

[Anne Lyle]

So: my general, admittedly still very limited, experience backs up what I've read elsewhere - that if you have a well-edited manuscript that still has a high word count, a) you're going to need to be damn good to get an agent, but it's possible, and b) aim to submit to the UK first. It's not that length isn't an issue for UK agents too, but they seem more willing to have a look at your writing before saying no - I think that's why many UK agencies ask for sample pages on the first submission, whereas few of the US agencies do. My impression that if a US agent sees your word count is higher than x, it's an automatic rejection before they ever look at your work.

I think it's the case that UK publishers are open to longer books, so UK agents feel they have a chance of selling them - and I suspect that UK agents get a lot fewer submissions than US ones, so they can afford to ask for partials up front. Zeno has switched to queries, but they're v popular owing to a stellar client list! (She says modestly, since they represent me...)

225k is very big for a debut - as I probably mentioned earlier up the thread, big names like Scott Lynch and Joe Abercrombie debuted with books in the 170-180k ballpark. Piling another 50k on top of that is asking a lot from a publisher! It can be done - viz Patrick Rothfuss - but you're stacking the odds against yourself.

 

[devaed]

I think it's the case that UK publishers are open to longer books, so UK agents feel they have a chance of selling them - and I suspect that UK agents get a lot fewer submissions than US ones, so they can afford to ask for partials up front.

I think I've read that about UK publishers too. I'd be interested to know whether UK agents actually do get fewer submissions these days, now that most agencies are easily found online and accept approaches via e-mail. From my perspective, I was basically forced to look internationally for an agent anyway (there's really no market for fantasy in Aus), and so my only criteria when searching was whether I was impressed by an agency's roster and reputation - their location was never really a concern. But I can see how people living in the UK or US would still be inclined to query locally, so you may well be right!

Zeno has switched to queries, but they're v popular owing to a stellar client list! (She says modestly, since they represent me...)

Nice And very true. What I've read about John Berlyne was a big draw as well - seems like he'd be a great agent to have.

It can be done - viz Patrick Rothfuss - but you're stacking the odds against yourself.

Yeah, almost makes me wish I'd done my research before starting to write Still, no regrets, I've learned a lot from the process no matter what happens from here. Funnily enough, Pat Rothfuss actually critiqued the manuscript in question last year, so at least I got some help from one of the few people who have managed it!

 

[Anne Lyle]

I think I've read that about UK publishers too. I'd be interested to know whether UK agents actually do get fewer submissions these days, now that most agencies are easily found online and accept approaches via e-mail.

I don't know if the following still holds true - the world moves on, even in publishing! - but when I started querying UK agents in 2010, there were still quite a lot who insisted on snail-mail submissions of partials. I believe it to be a deliberate strategy to deter casual enquiry - it costs nothing to send an email, but quite a bit to send 50-odd pages of manuscript, and thus forces the writer to be more selective in their submissions.

I've no doubt that, apart from a few old-school agents, they mostly use email after that (apart from contracts, which still have to be in hard copy) - but they were careful not to solicit email contact from unknown writers.

 

[devaed]

I don't know if the following still holds true - the world moves on, even in publishing! - but when I started querying UK agents in 2010, there were still quite a lot who insisted on snail-mail submissions of partials. I believe it to be a deliberate strategy to deter casual enquiry - it costs nothing to send an email, but quite a bit to send 50-odd pages of manuscript, and thus forces the writer to be more selective in their submissions.

There are still a few - not many, that I came across, but they're definitely still around. And it sounds like I might need to revisit my assumption that those agents were just living in the Dark Ages

 

[DaCosta]

I hope you don't mind me butting in here but I'd like to come at this from a different angle. As a reader. Not once have I reconsidered a book purchase on word-count (size). It doesn't even cross my mind when I pick up a book. I don't care what size it is; I check out the cover, then I read the blurb and then I might read the first few pages. That's it.
Perhaps I am in the minority.
I realise publishers have different reasons for book sizes and this is most likely due to the cost of printing and the logistics of producing a large volume.
Having looked more into word count lately (as I get ready to publish my own book) I have come across all of the previous information here. Generally it appears as though epic fantasy gets away with a higher word-count because of all the world-building required. But as a reader; the width of the spine (or pages/words for ebooks) has no bearing on whether I buy or not.

 

[devaed]

Not once have I reconsidered a book purchase on word-count (size). It doesn't even cross my mind when I pick up a book. I don't care what size it is; I check out the cover, then I read the blurb and then I might read the first few pages. That's it.
Perhaps I am in the minority.

I suspect you're far from the minority - from what I've seen, most readers are either like you, or they prefer smaller (i.e. normal-sized) books.

I should probably also clarify the comment I made in an earlier post - I won't even glance at epic fantasy books in the bookshop that look too short. When I read any other genre (including other strains of fantasy), book length usually doesn't matter to me. But if someone has created a completely different world, and then is telling a story that is supposed to have serious, world-altering consequences to it, I don't expect to be able to knock it over in a few hours.

Having said all that, I barely set foot inside a bookstore these days (there are very few left here in Aus since the two major chains collapsed a few years ago), so most of my book-buying comes on Kindle anyway... and it tends to be the user reviews that catch my eye for ebooks, rather than the cover or word count. Despite having discovered that the reviews on Amazon are not always to be trusted

 

[WriterJosh]

Well, I'm coming to this party a bit late, as I'm brand new to these boards, but I thought I'd report as a prospective writer currently soliciting agents that literally EVERY source I have come across has stated that for your debut in fantasy, anything from 90K to 120K is perfectly acceptable and anything longer has most agents, and publishing houses, cringing. They're happy to accept longer stuff as your second or third published manuscript, but they don't want to try and market a doorstopper from a first-time writer. At least, not anymore. The change likely comes from reader frustration with super-long books that seem to meander around and give us way more information than we really need.

My novel is 132K+. I'm actually concerned that I might be turned down for that reason.

 

[WriterJosh]

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I started sending out queries for my 225k word epic fantasy a few weeks ago, so thought I'd contribute my experience thus far.

I did a lot of research on which agents I thought would be a match for my book, then picked out four - two from the US, two from the UK. The US agencies accepted query letters only, and they quickly came back with rejections. One was a form letter, the other stated that the book did sound interesting, but the word count was simply too high for them to consider it. Both these agencies have strong rosters of epic fantasy authors, but many of those seem to have signed after they'd had their first novel published.

One agency in the UK (Zeno) asked for a partial after I queried them, but with a strong caveat in their response - they basically said to be aware that manuscripts of that size were all but impossible to sell from first-time authors, and that the standard was around 100k. So they were giving me fair warning to expect a rejection, but at least leaving the door open in case my writing absolutely blew them away.

The other UK agent I submitted to was John Jarrold, who asks for a sample straight up. Based on what I've read, I'm confident that if he sends me a rejection, it will be for reasons other than the word count.

So: my general, admittedly still very limited, experience backs up what I've read elsewhere - that if you have a well-edited manuscript that still has a high word count, a) you're going to need to be damn good to get an agent, but it's possible, and b) aim to submit to the UK first. It's not that length isn't an issue for UK agents too, but they seem more willing to have a look at your writing before saying no - I think that's why many UK agencies ask for sample pages on the first submission, whereas few of the US agencies do. My impression that if a US agent sees your word count is higher than x, it's an automatic rejection before they ever look at your work.

Having said all that... I'm still pretty new to all this, so I'm hardly an authority on the matter. Anyone with a conflicting experience, please feel free to disagree!

Wow. You almost sound like me. I have picked those same agents to query. I have not sent to Zeno yet, but I send to Jarrold today. I know he has accepted first-time writers with larger word counts. My novel is almost 100K shorter than yours, so I don't know what Zeno will say to me. I'm worried.

 

[WriterJosh]

Hey, devead, when you sent your query to Zeno, how did you address it?

Mr. Berlyne? To Whom it May Concern? etc.

 

[devaed]

Hey, devead, when you sent your query to Zeno, how did you address it?

Mr. Berlyne? To Whom it May Concern? etc.

Hi WriterJosh, welcome to the forums! I addressed it to Mr. Berlyne - he's the only agent there, so it was a safe bet. Your query will probably be dealt with by Stefan Fergus (Mr. Berlyne's assistant) to begin with, as it seems he's the gatekeeper on queries and partials; I suspect Mr. Berlyne himself only reads something if it gets to full manuscript stage. Even so, I'd definitely address it to Mr. Berlyne. And just FYI, you'll probably get a response to your query in 2-3 days, but partials are taking them about 3 months at the moment - they're extremely busy!

132k is only just past that upper limit, so hopefully you'll get at least some agents other than those two willing to have a look. I eventually got a form rejection from both of them - not unexpected, but disappointing of course. I do have one agent in the US who liked the partial and is interested in reading the whole thing when she's taking on clients again, but I got a lot of help in the form of a referral directly from one of her favourite authors - without that, I suspect my word count may have done me in there, too.

The change likely comes from reader frustration with super-long books that seem to meander around and give us way more information than we really need.

Yeah, and unfortunately, those frustrating books tend to be the ones coming from established authors - who presumably either wield more power over the editing process, or get their unnecessary pages of description into print because it's the way they've always written, and thus it's assumed that it's what their fanbase wants. It's the newer writers in the genre, I've found, who can produce long books that still have a tight plot and avoid those annoying chunks of descriptive text.

 

[Kissmequick]

My first ever book was 225k

Most o it , while I loved it, did not need to be there.

225k -- if your writing is tight (this will show in your UK sub/US query), and every scene needs to be there then you have a chance

If not, you don't

Sounds simple. But you perhaps (I did ) need some space from your MS, before you go back and look at every scene, every sentence.
Thta 225k mammoth I had? I cut that sucker to 110k

Sold it

Won a small award

Look at it. Really . Study it. STUDY OTHER BOOKS IN YOUR GENRE. Does this NEED to be here (no, a "scene explaining how X thing works" does not count, slide it into another scene! No, you do not need a page to describe the scene before you get to the action!)

I'll bet you can cut

Bet you a tenner