Gratuitous Rape in Fantasy novels

[Brian G Turner]

You have the hero tied up in a chair. He's been captured by the villain. The villain goes into a monologue about why he's doing what he's doing, pacing back and forth in front of the villain. Then, he takes out a knife and holds it up to our male hero.

How many of you think, "Oh my God, he's going to be raped?"

Too true, and something they at least did in the latest James Bond.

But all too often we see sloppy writing where a woman is nothing more than a way to motivate a male character.

"A faux medieval setting"! Manywriters chose to create worlds where what we know as "modern" weapons don't exist. But just because no one in my world has a gun or a bomb, that doesn't make them medieval.

It's an accepted term.

There is barely anything of the historically mediaeval in most fantasy writing. The mediaeval period was more than just taverns, wenches, and swords.

And your generalist link between "medieval" and attitude towards women has me screaming. There are many societies in our times that have an oppressive attitude towards women. Does that make them medieval?

We're talking about fantasy fiction, though, which has a tendency for a male writer to inject their modern personal and cultural attitudes of women into their writing, than any realistic depictions of gender politics in the mediaeval period.

 

[Ursa major]

In a way, it's rather odd that there aren't more scenes where a man is raped - or is threatened with it - if only because, being unexpected, those scenes will achieve a greater impact (at least until they become as common as scenes where a woman is the victim, which might be some time).


And one might be able to argue that as scenes where a woman is raped - or threatened with it - are not as unexpected - if only because "that's what bad guys do to assert their power over a woman" - there's less need for them where the author wants real shock value (and doesn't want to be thought of as unimaginative**).


** - Though this might depend on how imaginative, or otherwise, the perpetrating character is supposed to be, I guess.

 

[Jake Reynolds]

The mediaeval period was more than just taverns, wenches, and swords.

But surely tavern wenches can only use frypans as weapons?

Seriously though, rape is an issue that has infinite sides to it, and for me it comes down to the world you wish to represent with your writing. GRRM is a current example, as are a number of 'gritty' others. In those examples, they seem to address it as a matter of course, simply part of warfare. I don't want to write about a world like that.

Though I have a fairly brutal rape scene (not that there is any other kind) in one of my books, it is far from gratuitous, either in terms of detail (I focus on emotional perspective rather than the physical act), or plotting (it is a scene where the antagonist has a man rape the character while she is caged, seeking to destroy the victim's mental faculties so that she can lure her into believing the orchestrator of the rape is her savior). It is the most difficult scene I have ever had to write, not least because of the unsettling nature of the research of both actual attacks and the trauma afterwards, and the idea of it changing the style of my world almost made me change what happens.

Unfortunately, in any world where people feel fear they will seek to impose that fear onto others (not suggesting for a moment that anybody who feels fear will go out and commit atrocities, just highlighting that in any world where people act in the same way 'humans' do, then such things are likely to be present). It is up to you whether you make such atrocities a focal point.

 

[Nerds_feather]

"A faux medieval setting"! Manywriters chose to create worlds where what we know as "modern" weapons don't exist. But just because no one in my world has a gun or a bomb, that doesn't make them medieval.

And your generalist link between "medieval" and attitude towards women has me screaming. There are many societies in our times that have an oppressive attitude towards women. Does that make them medieval?

I see where you are coming from--there are people who claim that adding more rape or torture makes fantasy more "realistic," and that's a dubious claim. But these fantasy worlds are still "faux medieval" in the sense that they are meant to be fantasy versions OF the medieval world (usually somewhere in Europe). I never got the impression that ZombieWife thinks fantasy worlds are actually representative of actual medieval history/societies.

As for modern analogues, agreed, and you don't really need to go much further than the US or Britain to see the corrosive effects of an ingrained rape culture. But you could also go to many, if not most, other countries as well. The "rape-as-go-to-mechanism-for-character-building" in fantasy does appear to be more reflective of modernity than pre-modernity.

 

[ZombieWife]

Too true, and something they at least did in the latest James Bond.

I just realized this after I read what you wrote. They did have that scene in James Bond, which is very rare (imho). That said, half the theater laughed at that moment because I guess being a gay rapist is funny? Or, perhaps it was the delivery? Hmmm. I do think this is a good example of when a man can feel in danger of being sexually assaulted.

I never got the impression that ZombieWife thinks fantasy worlds are actually representative of actual medieval history/societies.

Bingo.

As for modern analogues, agreed, and you don't really need to go much further than the US or Britain to see the corrosive effects of an ingrained rape culture. But you could also go to many, if not most, other countries as well. The "rape-as-go-to-mechanism-for-character-building" in fantasy does appear to be more reflective of modernity than pre-modernity.

Well put.

 

[prizzley]

But these fantasy worlds are still "faux medieval" in the sense that they are meant to be fantasy versions OF the medieval world (usually somewhere in Europe).

But I often see this tag (or just "medieval") applied inappropriately, which is misleading.

The "rape-as-go-to-mechanism-for-character-building" in fantasy does appear to be more reflective of modernity than pre-modernity.

Really?

 

[Nerds_feather]

Really?

I'd say so. Rape is very common in the modern world, including in Western countries that are supposedly enlightened when it comes to gender relations. We're not really sure how common it was prior. Vikings, for example, are famous for "rape and pillage," but there's almost no evidence that they actually raped women in any systematic fashion. There are a few references in the sagas to the rape of men, but these are exclusively in sagas of the 13th century, a good 200 years after the end of the Viking era.

There are, of course, plenty of references to rape in history--particularly in the sack of cities in wartime--but it's a myth that pre-modernity was essentially "rape-ier" than modernity. So in the one sense (and we may agree on this, I'm not sure), faux-medieval fantasies are often caricatures of the medieval world, not representations of it.

 

[ZombieWife]

. . . faux-medieval fantasies are often caricatures of the medieval world, not representations of it.

This was exactly my take on it, but it's kind of expected. Disappointing, but expected.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I just realized this after I read what you wrote. They did have that scene in James Bond, which is very rare (imho). That said, half the theater laughed at that moment because I guess being a gay rapist is funny? Or, perhaps it was the delivery? Hmmm. I do think this is a good example of when a man can feel in danger of being sexually assaulted.

It may have been nervous laughter, or it may have been because the film was a little ridiculous - especially the "villain".

But what most men completely fail to understand is that most men never feel threatened sexually. A chance of being beaten up, murdered - but never raped.

Whereas for a women, it's an everyday hazard.

Heck, have a friend who last week had a repairman sent round by her housing association, who slapped her bum and told her to get dressed up for his return, as he was going to fill her holes. All said in her own home in front of her young son. Yes, she's filed a complaint; no, no one should ever be threatened like that; and no, it's not what most men would ever expect to happen to them.

Which is why I figure it grates so much when men use sexual threat and sexual violence without careful consideration in their writing. No matter what they think they are doing, they are trivialising the issue and insulting their audience, and this is especially underlined when it's simply to motivate a male character.

I also think there's not enough consideration given to the use of violence, full stop, in speculative fiction, but that's perhaps for another thread.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Well said, Brian.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Except I've never felt that rape is an everyday hazard any more than you guys wander around expecting to get a kicking. It's a risk, yes, but not one that defines my everyday life. And it's one I can take some precautions against. In fact, everyday hazard as a definition makes me uneasy.

 

[ZombieWife]

It may have been nervous laughter, or it may have been because the film was a little ridiculous - especially the "villain".

But what most men completely fail to understand is that most men never feel threatened sexually. A chance of being beaten up, murdered - but never raped.

Whereas for a women, it's an everyday hazard.

Heck, have a friend who last week had a repairman sent round by her housing association, who slapped her bum and told her to get dressed up for his return, as he was going to fill her holes. All said in her own home in front of her young son. Yes, she's filed a complaint; no, no one should ever be threatened like that; and no, it's not what most men would ever expect to happen to them.

Horrifying, just horrifying. I'm angry for your friend after reading this!

Which is why I figure it grates so much when men use sexual threat and sexual violence without careful consideration in their writing. No matter what they think they are doing, they are trivialising the issue and insulting their audience, and this is especially underlined when it's simply to motivate a male character.

I also think there's not enough consideration given to the use of violence, full stop, in speculative fiction, but that's perhaps for another thread.

I could not agree more. But, I do recognize that a writer has a choice in what he/she portrays and in how he/she executes their directives within their own realm. (And I, as a reader, have the right to react accordingly.)

Joe Abercrombie responded to a post on another forum (a GRRM board) about rape and such. I found his reply very interesting. I hope it's okay to post a link to an other board?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.ph...-the-rapiness-that-comes-before/#entry2864601

Basically, he was blasted for having shown the rape of a lesbian (by a man) and that he did so carelessly. (The lesbian was the lover of a newly married princess who refused to consummate the marriage with her husband, so the lesbian lover was raped in front of her to get her to perform her marital duties.)

Interesting read and a relevant (if not indirect) contribution to this conversation.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Except I've never felt that rape is an everyday hazard any more than you guys wander around expecting to get a kicking. It's a risk, yes, but not one that defines my everyday life. And it's one I can take some precautions against. In fact, everyday hazard as a definition makes me uneasy.

Hmm...I actually missed that part of Brian's post. "Everyday hazard" is perhaps an overstatement, but I think the broader point he was making is that the men writing most of the "rapey" fantasy just don't have to deal with the risks or implications of rape in the same way women do. So it's comparably easier for men to throw it in there as a sort of "character establishment" device without thinking through how it might be perceived by or impact female readers.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Except I've never felt that rape is an everyday hazard any more than you guys wander around expecting to get a kicking.

Apologies, I was clumsy with my wording - hopefully it didn't confuse the point though.

Basically, he was blasted for having shown the rape of a lesbian (by a man) and that he did so carelessly. (The lesbian was the lover of a newly married princess who refused to consummate the marriage with her husband, so the lesbian lover was raped in front of her to get her to perform her marital duties.)

Think this has gone the way of Chinese whispers a little! There was no rape - it was a whispered sexual threat from a male torturer to a female character.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Is threat, or the suggestion of being raped in writing just as bad and frowned upon as the actual rape happening? If the antagonist makes a sexual joke towards a captive female character, and she then fears she will be, even though the antagonist had no intention of doing anything of the kind, seen as still as bad?

 

[Gumboot]

I'd say so. Rape is very common in the modern world, including in Western countries that are supposedly enlightened when it comes to gender relations. We're not really sure how common it was prior. Vikings, for example, are famous for "rape and pillage," but there's almost no evidence that they actually raped women in any systematic fashion. There are a few references in the sagas to the rape of men, but these are exclusively in sagas of the 13th century, a good 200 years after the end of the Viking era.

Few problems here. Firstly, our modern definition of rape is pretty significantly broader than it has been for most of history. For example, for most of history a husband could not "rape" his wife. The overwhelming majority of modern instances of rape occur between people who know and trust each other, where one claims consent was given and one denies it. For most of history, the very suggestion these might be rape would be laughable (indeed, for most of the 20th Century authorities didn't seriously consider such instances rape).

Secondly, for most of history, and certainly until about the 15th Century, rape was considered a normal and even expected aspect of warfare. In many cultures women were seen as a war prize, which the victorious soldiers were entitled to, as reward. Some, such as the Romans and Greeks went as far as to legislate that right, and the most famous war story in human history (the Iliad) revolves around the outrage a soldier feels at having his war prize taken from him, in violation of the customs of war.

While various religious institutions made attempts to limit instances of rape and pillage in warfare throughout the Middle Ages, they were mostly unsuccessful, and it wasn't until the 19th Century that the concept of "civilians" in warfare was actually introduced.

Ironically, the Catholic Church introduced the notion of chivalry to limit the excess carnage of warfare, which led to the notion of Courtly Love, which was riddled with instances of rape being portrayed as a desirable and romantic thing. Both men and women were encouraged to rape.

If anything a medieval story that depicts warfare and doesn't feature rape is sugar-coating it.

 

[Gumboot]

Which is why I figure it grates so much when men use sexual threat and sexual violence without careful consideration in their writing. No matter what they think they are doing, they are trivialising the issue and insulting their audience, and this is especially underlined when it's simply to motivate a male character.

A half-decent writer doesn't put anything in their writing without careful consideration.

 

[ZombieWife]

Think this has gone the way of Chinese whispers a little! There was no rape - it was a whispered sexual threat from a male torturer to a female character.

Thank you for the clarification! Either way, some folks were up in arms. I thought it interesting that Abercrombie responded. Then again, he is a member of that community and has been for a wee bit.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Few problems here. Firstly, our modern definition of rape is pretty significantly broader than it has been for most of history. For example, for most of history a husband could not "rape" his wife. The overwhelming majority of modern instances of rape occur between people who know and trust each other, where one claims consent was given and one denies it. For most of history, the very suggestion these might be rape would be laughable (indeed, for most of the 20th Century authorities didn't seriously consider such instances rape).

Secondly, for most of history, and certainly until about the 15th Century, rape was considered a normal and even expected aspect of warfare. In many cultures women were seen as a war prize, which the victorious soldiers were entitled to, as reward. Some, such as the Romans and Greeks went as far as to legislate that right, and the most famous war story in human history (the Iliad) revolves around the outrage a soldier feels at having his war prize taken from him, in violation of the customs of war.

While various religious institutions made attempts to limit instances of rape and pillage in warfare throughout the Middle Ages, they were mostly unsuccessful, and it wasn't until the 19th Century that the concept of "civilians" in warfare was actually introduced.

Ironically, the Catholic Church introduced the notion of chivalry to limit the excess carnage of warfare, which led to the notion of Courtly Love, which was riddled with instances of rape being portrayed as a desirable and romantic thing. Both men and women were encouraged to rape.

If anything a medieval story that depicts warfare and doesn't feature rape is sugar-coating it.

Some good points in there (such as with regards standards of rape changing over time, and away from the odious concept of "legitimate rape). At the same time, you're extrapolating about a large area (Europe and the Near East) over a long period (5th century to 15th century CE) from a few cases, two of which are from the ancient world. My point was, and is, that we simply don't know how widespread rape was in the medieval world, yet we assume it was commonplace.

There certainly was rape and pillage in the medieval world. In all likelihood, it was widespread in specific places and specific times. I've read a bit on how judges in late medieval England routinely ignored rape statutes on the books and let accused rapists go (who, incidentally, were disproportionately priests and monks, it seems). So I'm not trying to say it didn't exist or "wasn't that bad" at the time. There's evidence that it was that bad, at least some of the time and in some places.

However, what we do not know is how widespread the practice was over the entirety of space and time considered "medieval." There are no reliable statistics and anecdotal evidence is spotty for the most part (better in some places than others, better at some times than others). And there are many cases where rape has been assumed to be commonplace, but on closer inspection, the evidence simply isn't there. With the Viking example I cited above. Or in the medieval Caliphate, where the punishment for a soldier who raped was death and from what I've read it doesn't seem to have been all that common. (There were similar statutes in much of Christian Europe, but armies were less disciplined and lines of authority less clear, making it comparably more difficult to enforce the law in wartime, so presumably there were more violations of the statute.)

So is it "realistic" for epic fantasy to be endlessly rapey? Dubious. And a missed opportunity as well.

 

[hopewrites]

I think men are just as at risk as women of being raped!

I think it is an everyday risk, depending on where you are. Just as one is not at risk of frostbite in the amazon, one is not going to be at risk for every kind of rape everywhere one goes.

I think we've done a through job covering the angles of what it would mean for a character to be raped.

What about characters who do the raping? It was glossed over earlier in the thread, but I think that conversation kind of died when I pointed out that some of us know what its like to be on the receiving end.

I dont think that a rape as a villainous activity should be one dimensional. Part of my healing process was figuring out what motivated my attackers.

I can tell you, it wasnt the construction orange miniskirt and ripped black fishnets.* Most times its an Eye-for-an-eye mentality and trying to get-some-of-their-own-back.

These are the kind of things that help create and perpetuate a rape culture.



*joke. I have yet to wear said outfit outside of my imagination.