Gratuitous Rape in Fantasy novels

[HareBrain]

A brandy alexander will suffice, if it please your honour.

 

[Ursa major]

Thinks Harebrain needs a cold flannel and a wee lie down... His whiskers are twitching.

I think that could be said of many posting here (give or take the twitching whiskers, of course).




And when did we have to start calling you, Your Honour? (Was I not sent the memo?)

 

[HareBrain]

I'm sure it's not necessary, I just thought it might increase the chance of a brandy alexander.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Shoves TJ to the side and hands over the brandy alexander. Ah, the sweet smell of promotion...

 

[Hex]

What is a brandy alexander?

Edit: I've been calling springs 'your honour' for weeks now.

Also: fabulous post, Teresa.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Thank you, Hex.

A brandy alexander is something I would drink if I were still allowed to drink. It is made of cognac and crème de cacao, and is incredibly nummy.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Ooops... Eyes Harebrain's drink nervously. I'd have liked a like, too, Teresa.

 

[Glitch]

I'd somehow forgot this was all my fault

We hadn't

I've forgotten which thread Hex was referring to

This is a sensitive topic and should be approached with caution with writing it.

I took Hope (very brave/strong woman) up on her offer to discuss a scene in more detail. When/if I come to write the WIP, I hope I can do it the justice it deserves. I don't think I can thank her enough for taking the time to discuss it with a complete stranger. Signed first edition do?

 

[Nerds_feather]

Sorry, but I can't do upside down....


As far as I can tell, NF has simply moved the paragraph beginning "When authors display" down one paragraph.

(I'm comparing the original post - post#291 - with the second one, and ignoring the quote, which seems, confusingly, to be of the second version, for some reason.)

I'm not sure what happened...but two of the paragraphs were out of order in post #291, and it didn't make sense. It makes even less sense that it would be in order when quoted.

 

[BetaWolf]

Teresa, I finally found the time to read your thoughtful post. I've thought about similar issues in the past. I've thought about what I want to write and what I'd like to read.

In fantasy lit, Tolkien is the benchmark for good v. evil.

George R R Martin is on the other end of the scale, where everything is confused, the white knights are few and far between, and war is war.

Terry Goodkind made that point, that he wants to write fantasy that should morally uplift his readers--but I think his writing is too preachy and predictable.

Michael Moorcock presents us with a morally ambiguous hero, who wants to do the good thing but finds himself in a deal with the devil.

Jim Butcher has in Harry Dresden a character who bends the rules of his world to help himself and help those around him. He has his own code and struggles to stick with it.

I agree that we don't need to go for certain themes for the sake of shock value. Where's that leave us on conflict? There's plenty of conflict. Internal conflict, unresolved issues, regrets, bad relationships. Everyday survival issues. Putting lives together after war or other calamities. Natural disasters. Pure physical conflict, doing direct physical harm to others, is kind of a cop out.

Writing a POV character who has the worst of qualities and never changes really is writing a book that never really goes anywhere. GRRM is bad about this I think. His characters never really change now that I think about it. They each have some good and bad qualities, sure, but there are rarely any great revelations. The real struggle in life is internal, not external. Your characters who make bad (or evil) choices can find redemption, whether or not others allow them to.

I read Frankenstein this week and reflected on that. The doctor is a real ******* who worries about his own happiness, getting back to his own glorious childhood, but his creation is shaped by how others see him and never gets a decent shot in life. There always has to be the chance for redemption in the end. That's part of my own concerns as a writer.

 

[Gumboot]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I get very irritated when people start trying to dictate to writers what they should write about and how they should write. But, I also feel that if someone writes a book like The Prince of Thorns, readers and critics alike should have equal opportunity to discuss its merits and flaws. I think you articulated this in a very reasonable manner.

Exactly. A writer can do what they want, and write what they want, with or without justification, and readers will respond however they want, with or without justification.

It's like the old Catch-22 of the right to free speech; you have the right to say whatever you want, but everyone else has the right to judge you for what you say.

 

[Gumboot]

Writing a POV character who has the worst of qualities and never changes really is writing a book that never really goes anywhere. GRRM is bad about this I think. His characters never really change now that I think about it. They each have some good and bad qualities, sure, but there are rarely any great revelations. The real struggle in life is internal, not external. Your characters who make bad (or evil) choices can find redemption, whether or not others allow them to.

I can't think of a single one of Martin's major characters who hasn't changed enormously through the course of their story.

 

[ZombieWife]

I can't think of a single one of Martin's major characters who hasn't changed enormously through the course of their story.

Yeah, I agree, maybe with the exception of Sansa. Maybe I'm just not seeing it in her, or maybe it will come later.

 

[Gumboot]

Yeah, I agree, maybe with the exception of Sansa. Maybe I'm just not seeing it in her, or maybe it will come later.

I think Sansa might have changed the most, of anyone. She went from a foolish, naive idiot into a pretty impressive survivor. She realised she was weak, and therefore had to be small and insignificant to survive, but at the same time look at all the tiny little moments where she defies Joffrey and gets her own back. In an environment where any wrong step is death, that's enormously courageous.

The interesting thing is that both Sansa and Arya are offered the opportunity to make significant difference to the war - Sansa when she could have pushed Joffrey off the wall and Arya when she could have said Tywin's name. These moments are major character development points for both girls.

 

[ZombieWife]

I think Sansa might have changed the most, of anyone. She went from a foolish, naive idiot into a pretty impressive survivor. She realised she was weak, and therefore had to be small and insignificant to survive, but at the same time look at all the tiny little moments where she defies Joffrey and gets her own back. In an environment where any wrong step is death, that's enormously courageous.

The interesting thing is that both Sansa and Arya are offered the opportunity to make significant difference to the war - Sansa when she could have pushed Joffrey off the wall and Arya when she could have said Tywin's name. These moments are major character development points for both girls.

I like your take on it. I was planning to read the series again, so I'm going to look for this. Thanks for offering it up!

 

[Gumboot]

I like your take on it. I was planning to read the series again, so I'm going to look for this. Thanks for offering it up!

I must confess my secret hope for an ending is that Sansa becomes a ruthless Queen of the North, with Arya as her hand and the deathly extension of her will, bringing down the icy wrath of House Stark on all their enemies, aided my Nymeria and her wolf-army.

Winter is Coming.

 

[hopewrites]

I took Hope (very brave/strong woman) up on her offer to discuss a scene in more detail. When/if I come to write the WIP, I hope I can do it the justice it deserves. I don't think I can thank her enough for taking the time to discuss it with a complete stranger. Signed first edition do?

I would say it was my pleasure but fear to pun. Really though it was a delight to open up and have my perspectives taken for what they are.
I would be utterly delighted to have an inscribed copy, but it was as much a benefit to me as (I hope) it was to you.

If you doubt yourself, characters, or writing, you know where to find me. I'd be happy to offer you my opinions and insight again at any time.


Since the cultural fear (or lake of fear) of rape has been brought up I'd like to go on record as not having ever feared it.
There is a real difference between the fear of something happening and an awareness if it's likely hood.

I have walked dark and dangerous alleyways in the dead of night, as safe as if I were in an armored car. I was aware of what real dangers were present, what dangers would like to threaten, and that I would not be a target because of xyz. I was right every time.
Once when I was lost at the wrong part of a particular metropolis for a person of my gender, build, and coloring to be lost in, I was approached by and individual my assumed cultural upbringing would have taught me to fear.
I am certain that the way I greeted him, human being to human being, made his offer of help easier to give. (I always test instinctual on the INFJ thing) I am certain that my nature nurtured within him (as I've seen it do with many others) a comfortableness in doing what he felt to be the right thing. I was given clear instructions on how to reach my stated destination and even escorted partway there.

This is not unique in my metropolis experience. Though I relied on my instinct to pick and chose among those offering help.

Why would I go against my cultural upbringing? Because of fiction that I had consumed in my youth. I took away from those countless pages an abiding selflaw of "see people for who they are, not the mask they ware" because there are good giants, helpful minotaurs, evil enchantresses, enchanted princes, kind dragons, and diabolical knights to be found amongst their more stereotypical counterparts.

So do I think it has an effect on readers? Yes! Absolutely. Humans are never only one thing. Fiction is a nice way to brake up humans into pieces and by stereotyping the pieces give them specific human values that can be more easily addressed than a whole human with all its complexity of mingled nature and nurture.

fantasy is closer to reality because it isnt.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Apologies for reviving a thread about a horrible subject, but I'm doing some research on the Bosnian War in the 1990's when Yugoslavia broke up.

Mass rape of women is very easy to find material on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_Bosnian_War

However, I can find very little evidence of systematic male rape, other than "hundreds of cases" as mentioned here: http://iwpr.net/report-news/bosnia-struggle-overcome-male-rape-taboo

While there's an argument of male rape being under-reported, it seems clear that, using higher estimates, for every man raped there were at least 100 women raped. Additionally, there's systematic rape of women and even designated rape camps, and women used as sex slaves.

Comparatively, it appears implied that men were raped as part of a general process of torture and humiliation, rather than any kind of general systemic abuse endemic to the conflict.

I raise this subject simply because earlier it seemed suggested (especially through posts referenced on other sites) that male rape in war was perfectly common. However, I don't find evidence of this in the Bosnian War, nor systematic in any other conflict.

 

[allmywires]

You might want to read this article, Brian (if it doesn't let you access it I can send the pdf).

http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2004/12/31/bjc.azi041.full.pdf

excerpt:

"As I reviewed the many witness statements my colleagues had gathered and as I interviewed medical experts in the field, I was overwhelmed by the repeated mention of sexual assault against male prisoners. Indeed, the reports were so frequent and so consistent,
that I began to contemplate the possibility that sexual assault against men (soldiers,
prisoners and non-combatants) was, perhaps, not only widespread in war, but that it
was also an almost integral part of war-making itself. Because of the ‘novelty’ of the subject, there was a great deal of interest in the academic community."

And this is a paper written specifically based on things observed during the Bosnian war.

[As an addendum, all it took was for me to google 'male rape war' and look in the reference list of this book. http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=...jMyO0T3zC0g#v=onepage&q=male rape war&f=false)

 

[Hex]

Goodness knows, but there's an especially high chance that male rape was significantly under-reported in Bosnia.

There is little evidence in these articles [edit: the ones Brian cited, not yours amw], I think, for suggesting male rape isn't "perfectly common" in war-time -- it may also be under-reported in the Bosnian conflict because it was used as part of torturing someone to death.