Joe Abercrombie defends gritty fantasy

Jorg's view on the men around him is dismissive and picks on their weaknesses. He is, at least, an equal ops psycho. I find none of his views pleasant, hence won't read the sequel, but I'm not sure it actually regressed women anymore than anything else does.

I got bored of saying this a long time ago. It seems so self evident and yet people are queuing up to ignore it. Very many thanks for having the energy to make the observation though.

I have in the past said that to call Jorg misogynistic makes as much sense as pointing at the aliens with the 'KILL ALL HUMANS' banner who have come to disintegrate the planet and shouting out that they are anti-semitic. Yes, they do want to kill all jews. No they're not anti-semitic.

But if you've got a hot topic and you want fodder to feed it then such things are easy to wilfully ignore.
 
There seems to be a huge desire to read politics into fantasy books. To construct the writer's agenda from the most ephemeral of clues, then demonise them for it. When of course the world is packed with actual concrete examples of everything anyone wants to object to.

I would say that it's precisely because the world if full of these concrete examples that - for some of us at least - reading politics into a fantasy work is unavoidable.


On another codicil, I really do think to comment on a book or genre, you need to have read it. I'm not saying anyone here hasn't read around the genre etc. etc. but there is so much being written about eg. Prince of thorns (and you'll note I haven't mentioned Joe Abercrombie in my posts, I haven't read his stuff) that it's easy to become a sheep to loud voices objecting to it. Better to make up your own mind.

Yeah, that, EXACTLY.

Then don't read the book.
See above, and also - how am I supposed to know for sure before I read a book that I don't want to read it? I can only make educated guesses.
 
Edit: Let's note that rape wasn't mentioned on Nerd's list of 5 reasons people complain about grit. I'm still trying to find out how the things on that list lead to complaint rather than avoidance.


They only lead to complaints by people who are entirely self-appointed arbiters of what should or shouldn't be seen in a book - who see themselves as a moral compass that everyone should be forced to follow, because they think it's unacceptable. Censorship, if they had their way.

by Nerds feather
Rather, something has purpose to me if I can identify the intention behind it, feel as if the author achieved what they set out to do with the scene in question and feel as if this is, ultimately, a worthy goal and worthy accomplishment. And I also think about the costs involved--what does an emphasis on cruel violence potentially take away from the story and its impact? Because all choices have consequences.

And if the author wanted to show that violence, brutality and cruelty are part of war (I think we can definitely accept that is so) then they've achieved that worthy goal, no? It seems to me that you want a purposeful book, where you can identify the intention behind it, and interpret - in your own way - what the author wanted to achieve. A totally impossible task: 1,000 readers will interpret any given scene in any given book 1,000 different ways, based on their own assumptions, their own proclivities, their own experience, their own religious beliefs, their own likes and dislikes - the list is endless, but they have a choice to do so. Forgive me for saying this, but it appears your complaint is based on the fact that you may wish to deny that choice to those 1,000 people, because it's not justifiable? Can't they make their own minds up? The consequence of choice (which you didn't elaborate on) can always be to switch channels, put the book down, cancel the newspaper, leave the pub/bar if they don't like what they're seeing or hearing.

by Nerds Feather
This isn't the fault of any given writer, but there is a cumulative effect for those of us reading a lot in the genre.

I repeat: Don't read the book. Choose.

Ps: Read reviews, pick the book up in the shop and browse it.
 
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I would say that it's precisely because the world if full of these concrete examples that - for some of us at least - reading politics into a fantasy work is unavoidable.

Well fair enough - but I 'read' faces into randomly patterned wallpaper. I don't then go and tell the manufacturers off if one of those faces appears to be sneering at me.

I'm not saying you do that. I am saying that some people do it.
 
Good to see this has excited some interesting discussion...

Part of the problem here is that (understandably) no one really seems keen to identify these books that are unremittingly dark and without hope and obviously revelling in splatter, and whenever anyone mentions a book there's a tendency to say, 'well, not them, that's ok, I can see why people might find that useful.' It just seems to be accepted that this mass of fiendish valueless torture porn is out there, chewing at the walls of our dimension. I haven't made an exhaustive survey of the sub-genre by any means, but my own suspicion is that few books are unremittingly grim or very extreme, especially relatively successful books, and most writers do actually have reasons for doing what they do. A lot of them may fail with given readers, but that's not quite the same thing as revelling in filth for the sake of it.

Probably people are being polite, but I'll be impolite and say that three books I felt were excessively violent without enough justification are: Morgan's The Steel Remains, RSB's The Darkness that Comes Before, Week's Way of the Shadows. The authors might be lovely people capable of fantastic writing (and I don't know since I don't know them), but these specific books had the specific problem I was talking about in my blog post. GRRM's A Dance with Dragons is a book I had mixed feelings about, largely because I felt the restraint and tightness I observed in the first three books had given way to a more sensationalistic and less edited approach (not only in the realm of "grimdark" quotient, of course).

Some books that I think are very grimdark but do, in my opinion, have solid justification for said grimdarkery are: the first three Song of Ice and Fire books, your own Best Served Cold and Sapkowski's Blood of Elves.

For me, at least, it's a qualitative--not quantitative--distinction, though the higher the cruelty/splatter level, the more justification I need to see in order to feel as if it's adding, rather than subtracting, from the text.

A few reasons writers and readers might like this approach that immediately occur:

1. A lot of these books still contain humour, moments of heroism, glimpses of a better world, which may shine all the more brightly amongst the filth.

2. You might come back from your crappy job, open your book and think, phew, someone has it way worse than me, I feel better about life.

3. Dark and dangerous worlds can give a visceral excitement of the kind you get from a tough action or horror film.

4. A book might present a horrible world and a horrible outcome in order to say, 'the real world is awful in many ways, how could it be better, or how might we stop it being worse?' A la 1984.

5. A really powerful depiction of horrible behaviour might make people consider their own behaviour and that of others. Which is to say, some people might read in order to think about our world rather than escape from it.

#s 1, 4 and 5 are exactly the kind of valid justification for grit in fantasy fiction I have been talking about. Have you read Sapkowski's Blood of Elves? In a lot of ways, his is the most unrelentingly grim world I've encountered in fantasy, but it's all about #4 and #5 on your list. To me that makes the grim darkness deeply compelling. Not all fantasy needs to be this political, but it's a powerful approach and a judicious use of grit.

This stuff about publishing slots doesn't really represent the industry as I see it from the inside, by the way. An editor doesn't have x number of slots to fill and if they haven't by year end they just publish the next six books through the door. Nor if a fantastic commercial manuscript arrives do they fling up their hands and say, dash it all, it's the best book I've ever read but I have no free slots left this year. There are general concerns about costs and profits, of course, and editors' freedom varies greatly from place to place and according to their success. But generally they're looking at each manuscript on its merits. Whether they like it and whether they think it'll make money. And competition isn't just between fantasy books - more gritty, less shiny, it's at a much more general level - we publish more fantasy this year, fewer thrillers. You're getting more gritty books not because they're stealing slots from shiny books, but because gritty books are selling. Still plenty of more traditional stuff being published, and lots of the old stuff still in print.

Yes, they look for what matches the profile of what is selling. But they are also looking for things that can "get noticed" in a crowded field. One of the oldest tricks in the marketing book is: "You loved X, now get ready for X+1!"

Given the small number of manuscripts from unknown writers that get noticed by agents and publishers, this can create serious pressure to conform to "X+2" even if that might not have been your first instinct. I suspect that's why certain books that aren't generally excessively gritty but inexplicably contain long and very explicit torture scenes (like Saladin Ahmed's Throne of the Crescent Moon and Douglas Hulick's Among Thieves). With regards Among Thieves (which I'm reading at the moment), it starts off with a gory torture scene that felt extremely gratuitous to me. But the rest of the book (so far) is nothing like that. It's dark, yes, and also quite violent. But the violence feels well edited, and I think the book is stronger for that. Maybe this scene came about for other reasons, but I suspect it was to "make a splash and get noticed."

Also, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "traditional" fantasy? Neo-Tolkein fantasy with prophesies and elves? "Good vs. evil" fantasy? As I said earlier, not everyone who criticizes a perceived excess of grit in fantasy wants, by extension, more of these kinds of things. I certainly don't--I just want to read gritty fantasy where the grit has clear purpose other than just "my world is so daaark man." I want to see authors practice some restraint, as you and others I mentioned have done to great effect.

(Another set of issues concern allegations of misogyny, racism, homophobia and other things made by some readers and critics about grimdark fantasy. But since we're strictly talking about the "grit" quotient here, I haven't made mention of these so far.)
 
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They only lead to complaints by people who are entirely self-appointed arbiters of what should or shouldn't be seen in a book - who see themselves as a moral compass that everyone should be forced to follow, because they think it's unacceptable. Censorship, if they had their way.

A very strange accusation, if you ask me. Do you think that free speech should not include within it the right to be highly critical, or that it should include a right to be insulated from criticism? To be honest, that doesn't sound very free to me. :)
 
My quick (and not very weighty) two cents (American colloquialism). We all know The Golden Rule. This is my Golden Question: Is it well done?

That to me is what everything comes down to. If it's well done, the subject matter is irrelevant. I've recently read the first few books of Stephen R Donaldson's Gap Cycle, and the first two books of it were horribly, miserably dark places in which to put one's mind. But it was so well done. Well written, compelling, and rock solid characterizations. A book containing endless rapes, beatings, and psychological domination doesn't jump out at me and say, "this is what you want to be reading!" But a damned good book does, regardless of its content.
 
A few reasons writers and readers might like this approach that immediately occur:

1. A lot of these books still contain humour, moments of heroism, glimpses of a better world, which may shine all the more brightly amongst the filth.

True. But hitting the same down beat over and over and over is simply dull from a writing perspective, you have to give some variety otherwise the readers leave. Besides, the rest of the milieu is still unremittingly dark. So overall the effect is the same.

2. You might come back from your crappy job, open your book and think, phew, someone has it way worse than me, I feel better about life.
Again, that people are like this in general creeps me out. "Huh. At least I don't have it as bad as that guy." Your life's okay as long as someone else's is worse. That's a great way to be.

3. Dark and dangerous worlds can give a visceral excitement of the kind you get from a tough action or horror film.
Right. That's titillating the audience. You're giving them excitement for excitement's sake. In this case blood, gore, violence, death, rape, unremitting glorification of nasty and dark things. Again, that explicitly creeps me out that people get off on that kind of stuff.

4. A book might present a horrible world and a horrible outcome in order to say, 'the real world is awful in many ways, how could it be better, or how might we stop it being worse?' A la 1984.
That's laughable at best. We've already got that well and truly covered. I accept that writers want to elevate their craft to art, hell even high art, and everything. But there's nothing Orwellian about this grimdark stuff. The cautionary tale of what me might become if certain courses are taken instead of others is all well and good, but of Orwell's nine books, only 1984 was a dystopia. His entire bibliography isn't one bleak future after another. Sounding the same hollow note again and again and again.

5. A really powerful depiction of horrible behaviour might make people consider their own behaviour and that of others. Which is to say, some people might read in order to think about our world rather than escape from it.
I read SF to think about the world, I read fantasy to escape it. To each there own. But you're excluding another relevant part of the equation here. The people who read the grimdark fantasy because they really just enjoy the blood, gore, filth, and darkness. They actually really like that stuff. Not as an admonition to rethink their ways, but to simply smile when another character is brutalized. Hence the creeps.

But what about a bit of honesty though. Really Joe and Mark. Would you guys have continued to write in this subgenre even if it didn't sell? Would you continue to hammer away at these kinds of stories and settings if it didn't get you published or keep you published? Your first books were both written in this subgenre, they got you published, they got you noticed, they got you paid. You have no real incentive to go elsewhere, do you? I'm not saying you're selling out or sold out or any of that naive pap, no, but you're writers, you want to write and get published. If the subgenre dries up, you'll move on, right? So there is some clear financial aspect to this, however small it may be.

Not many writers pick a fairly narrow subgenre and stick with it come hell or high water. Most are simply to eclectic themselves to stay put, while others are happy to bounce from subgenre to subgenre or genre to genre just telling the stories they like.

This stuff about publishing slots doesn't really represent the industry as I see it from the inside, by the way. An editor doesn't have x number of slots to fill and if they haven't by year end they just publish the next six books through the door. Nor if a fantastic commercial manuscript arrives do they fling up their hands and say, dash it all, it's the best book I've ever read but I have no free slots left this year. There are general concerns about costs and profits, of course, and editors' freedom varies greatly from place to place and according to their success. But generally they're looking at each manuscript on its merits. Whether they like it and whether they think it'll make money. And competition isn't just between fantasy books - more gritty, less shiny, it's at a much more general level - we publish more fantasy this year, fewer thrillers. You're getting more gritty books not because they're stealing slots from shiny books, but because gritty books are selling. Still plenty of more traditional stuff being published, and lots of the old stuff still in print.
Maybe the word "slots" is misleading here, but the concept exactly mirrors my experience in the industry. Houses rely on the small but steady flow of income from the backlist and use the sales of one new release to fund the production costs of the next, basically. Granted, my experience is not from big houses, so they may have unlimited editors and designers to put onto projects on a whim, but smaller houses have to schedule their time, their employees' time, their freelancers' time, and their money.

No, a marvelous book won't be rejected because there's no immediate slot available, but if there's no decent spot in the next few years or so, they probably will pass. Typically houses won't pull editors and designers from other projects to rush something through. Sure, it happens, but it's expensive and causes delays elsewhere. So you have houses with slots, basically. They can produce only so many books a year due to available funds, staff, etc and if a great ms. comes in over the transom they'll consider it for the schedule in the next few years, but are unlikely to throw money away shuffling things around frantically to publish it now. And less likely to sit on a ms. for years on end because they like it. Sure, it happens, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

Not to mention solicitations, retail release dates, review copies, blurbs, arcs, collateral, scheduling printing time, shipping time, and all the other time commitments publishers have to make well in advance of a book actually being released. My experience is clearly different than yours, but I've never seen a house drop everything they've worked on for a year or more to rush some new book out the door. It's always been more of a slow churn of one project to the next, or overlapping projects, all with relatively tight schedules stretching out months, if not years into the future.

Except for proofs. Damn I hate proofs.
 
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[Sorry...should read Weeks' The Way of Shadows]

I'm curious - what part of that did you think makes it especially "grimdark"? I know there's the issue of his male friend being raped early on, but so far as I can recall, that was off-screen, and the rest of the book was quite light reading. That's another one I had figured as Young Adult Fiction. :)

But hitting the same down beat over and over and over is simply dull from a writing perspective, you have to give some variety otherwise the readers leave.

Have you read any Abercrombie? It is all rather good. There's also the big pointer that violence is not something that is mindless and consequence-free in his writing.

Heck, his standalone novel "Best Served Cold" is arguably a stunning commentary on the pointlessness of violence.

I don't recall his stories being downers - merely challenging the right of any protagonist to kill without question. So you get to see both sides of a story though protagonists on each - and what is "good" becomes a political choice, not a moral right. This is a point raised in his First Law trilogy, and made explicit in "The Heroes".
 
Have you read any Abercrombie? It is all rather good. There's also the big pointer that violence is not something that is mindless and consequence-free in his writing.

I'm not saying his stories, or anyone else's are continuous down beats. I was responding to the quoted line of his saying "of course there's humor and lighter fair in these stories too," by replying, "but of course, you have to include some variety."

Rate the darker elements of Joe's typical stuff, or a specific book next to say GRRM's A Game of Thrones novel. Is it generally darker, bloodier, more morally ambiguous, less black and white, more shades of grey? More violent, more gore, more cruelty? More rape? More misogyny? Less redeeming qualities in the characters? More anti-heroes? More pointless deaths?
 
Rate the darker elements of Joe's typical stuff, or a specific book next to say GRRM's A Game of Thrones novel. Is it generally darker, bloodier, more morally ambiguous, less black and white, more shades of grey?

Joe Abercrombie writes more fun and intelligent stories, IMO.

GRRM writes something that's more akin to historical fiction, but very exaggerated for effect, with fantasy elements in it. His word smithing is perfection, but plots are quite vast (perhaps too much), and his writing is unquestionably "epic".

Abercrombie doffs his cap at history, but otherwise writes very character driven stories. That means you'll see people from different sides of a conflict, where there is one. However, conflicts tend to be small, personal, and localised. More importantly, he justifies what he's writing, and looks at different ways to cover it.

Remember the pie in Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus? GRRM would put that without a second thought, if he knows he can emotionally impact the reader. He would only stop to think about what vegetables would be correct to add to the recipe and describe them with a flourish.

Abercrombie would have to think about whether he really needs to, what he's trying to achieve, and if he can ensure any point isn't lost with it. If he does use it, at least two different people would look at the pie with very different opinions. Within two books you'll know what both of these opinions were, and how learning the first fooled you as to the second.

EDIT: George R R Martin is like the new JRR Tolkien (except that Frodo failed). Joe Abercrombie is like the new Fritz Lieber (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser have friends). Both classic writers had their dark moments - I don't think the modern writers are really that different.

All IMHO.
 
Joe Abercrombie writes more fun and intelligent stories, IMO...

Thanks for the reply, but what about the rest of my post? Does his work feature more violence, more gore, more cruelty? More rape? More misogyny? Less redeeming qualities in the characters? More anti-heroes? More pointless deaths?
 
But what about a bit of honesty though. Really Joe and Mark. Would you guys have continued to write in this subgenre even if it didn't sell? Would you continue to hammer away at these kinds of stories and settings if it didn't get you published or keep you published? Your first books were both written in this subgenre, they got you published, they got you noticed, they got you paid. You have no real incentive to go elsewhere, do you? I'm not saying you're selling out or sold out or any of that naive pap, no, but you're writers, you want to write and get published. If the subgenre dries up, you'll move on, right? So there is some clear financial aspect to this, however small it may be.

You appear to have confused us with the people a tiny vocal minority wish you to think we are.

I didn't challenge your characterisation of what I write because I was interested in the process that turned your disinterest into an active object / the taking of issue with it. Turned out you didn't share that peculiarity with Nerd and so that discussion ended.

I _do_ however challenge your characterisation of what I write. It's nonsense. Especially as you haven't read it.

First off the idea that I wrote to sell is completely wrong.

Next off the 'continue to hammer at' is wrong. I have two books out. Two of a trilogy. That's not hammering away at the same thing time and again.

Third off... my books aren't unrelentingly dark, gory and in the course of the first 200,000 words feature a whole paragraph referencing an 'off screen' rape.

I consider my work a fairly sophisticated character study wrapped around a tale with highs, lows, and considerable humour. Yes someone could extract a handful of lines and sell you any story they cared to about a book. The answer that person reaches will be the answer they want to reach.

And finally ... I wrote a book. I didn't identify a subgenre and decide to write in it. In fact I deny one exists. It's craziness to claim I write in a particular genre. I don't even stick to fantasy over the course of one short book. To accuse me of sticking to one narrow subgenre for financial gain without the slightest idea what I actually do write is pretty insulting frankly.
 
Thanks for the reply, but what about the rest of my post? Does his work feature more violence, more gore, more cruelty? More rape? More misogyny? Less redeeming qualities in the characters? More anti-heroes? More pointless deaths?

I think you can only really throw these pointers at GRRM, not Abercrombie.
 
Mid 80's to 97 I read very little fantasy because everything I tried felt the same (a few exceptions of course). In that period lots of interesting and controversial things were happening in SF - including its own much criticised "grimdark" cyberpunk movement.

I'd argue that Glen Cook pioneered the close PoV "gritty" fantasy but GRRM really started me reading fantasy again. It felt to me that a whole generation of fantasy fans grew up and all thought "I want to write fantasy, but without following the 80's rule book" and a lot of them produced challenging, interesting and diverse books.

I've read lots of the authors accused of "grimdark" Erikson, Bakker, GRRM, Abercrombie, Lawrence, Morgan and many more.

I enjoy their subversion of my expectations, a lot!

I also enjoy a lot of other fantasy - I don't think anyone would accuse Bujold, Brust, Rothuss, Novik, Jesmin or Abraham of writing "torture porn".

More choice, more experimentation, more books (even ones I don't like) Is always better. I've read a few books I wish I hadn't but none that I wish hadn't been allowed to see the light of day.

Edit: I feel that SF is having a bit of a stale patch of late, ripe for a new generation to come along and do something new, upsetting and challenging (I hope)
 
First off the idea that I wrote to sell is completely wrong.

That's not quite what I said. I made no claims as to why you wrote anything before you were published, simply that now that you have been, there's a clear financial incentive to continue doing so. Same with any other writer in SF/F. Once you get published, by and large, series books, or staying roughly in the same (or adjacent) niches is encouraged. You're in now, you're published. There's a big incentive to keep up with what's worked so far.

Next off the 'continue to hammer at' is wrong. I have two books out. Two of a trilogy. That's not hammering away at the same thing time and again.
Continue to hammer at in the sense of the long hours and hard work of actually writing a book. I have used "hammer away" in various forms in a few posts. So it's easy to read one as the other.

Third off... my books aren't unrelentingly dark, gory and in the course of the first 200,000 words feature a whole paragraph referencing an 'off screen' rape.

I consider my work a fairly sophisticated character study wrapped around a tale with highs, lows, and considerable humour. Yes someone could extract a handful of lines and sell you any story they cared to about a book. The answer that person reaches will be the answer they want to reach.

And finally ... I wrote a book. I didn't identify a subgenre and decide to write in it. In fact I deny one exists. It's craziness to claim I write in a particular genre. I don't even stick to fantasy over the course of one short book. To accuse me of sticking to one narrow subgenre for financial gain without the slightest idea what I actually do write is pretty insulting frankly.
I don't know your process, granted. But I am aware of your work. I have picked up Prince and read what I could before having to put it back. You shouldn't presume.

I not accusing you of anything, I'm asking. You're writing a trilogy of books. Good for you. Congrats. But it's telling, I think, that you're actually saying above that only featuring one "off screen" rape in 200,000 words is somehow commendable. What restraint that must have taken.

Is this an unfair review of your book?

Is any of it inaccurate? Does Jorg murder a whole lot of people? Does he rape? Are there fewer decent characters than a Joe A or Bakker? Does it have "rather fewer characters who approach decentness. Or sanity. Or anything like a single redeeming virtue"? Is this accurate: "Jorg is a rapist, an unconflicted murderer, a character who comes across as a sociopath dialled up to the max living in a world of (male) sociopaths"?

Is this a quote from your book, Mark?

“The combination of a woman and time on my hands wasn’t one I’d tried before. I found the mix to my liking. There’s a lot to be said for not being in a queue, or not having to finish up before the flames take hold of the building. And the willingness! That was new too.” [p 173]

Hmm. A willing sexual partner who isn't being gang raped or about to burn to death. Never considered that before. Yeah. Sounds like a "sophisticated character study" to me.

You want to write that kind of dark skeevy stuff, more power. Readers eat that stuff up and enjoy it, more power. It's still damned creepy to me that people would want to spend their time inside the heads of these kinds of characters or in that kind of world. But then again, some people like to pump a pump, to turn a phrase.
 
I'm curious - what part of that did you think makes it especially "grimdark"? I know there's the issue of his male friend being raped early on, but so far as I can recall, that was off-screen, and the rest of the book was quite light reading. That's another one I had figured as Young Adult Fiction. :)

There's an awful lot of child victims early in the book, not something I have much tolerance for. But like I said, for me the bar is qualitative not quantitative, and I mentioned this book more as an example of one where the "grit" doesn't meet my personal standard for "purpose," the irony being that I enjoyed the early "grittier" section more than the main story that came after!

But I see your point, and I guess it's unfair to lump that one in with Morgan and RSB.
 
That's not quite what I said. I made no claims as to why you wrote anything before you were published, simply that now that you have been, there's a clear financial incentive to continue doing so. .

But I got a three book deal. Nobody said how I had to write the next book. I have a day job. It's kept me going the past 20 years - I don't need to follow book contracts. How you jump from 'there's a clear financial incentive' to decide what I'm writing and why I don't know.

My current work is quite different. I've written books in many and varied styles. I feel you're trying to pigeon hole me in an entirely unfounded manner and then criticise me for how you've chose to label me.

Same with any other writer in SF/F. Once you get published, by and large, series books, or staying roughly in the same (or adjacent) niches is encouraged. You're in now, you're published. There's a big incentive to keep up with what's worked so far.

No publisher has ever said anything about the kind of book they would like me to write or that I should write.

I not accusing you of anything, I'm asking.

Most of the time it sounds a lot like telling rather than asking.

You're writing a trilogy of books. Good for you. Congrats. But it's telling, I think, that you're actually saying above that only featuring one "off screen" rape in 200,000 words is somehow commendable. What restraint that must have taken.

I have nowhere to go with that. I don't feel one iota of guilt/badness/wrongness with having written a book where someone mentions a rape. Plenty of people are killed too... as in many fantasy books. Do I feel guilty/bad/at fault about that? Not a jot. None of them were real. They were just words. Am I going to write a swords and sorcery book where nobody gets hurt, where the swords aren't used? No.

I'm unclear as to the purpose of this exchange. You've already declared you don't object or take issue with my writing what I wish to write. You've already made it plain it's not the kind of work you like to read.

Is there a point to polish here or should we just move on?


It's not in general productive to comment on particular reviews. Fair or unfair are highly subjective terms. Accuracy or otherwise is largely an irrelevance in reviews - being technically accurate within the bounds of a review is a no-brainer and the rest is opinion to which accuracy is not applicable. I can't remember the last time I saw a review of a book that contained an outright lie or significant mistake. Two reviews can be accurate and yet opposite in tone, direction and conclusion.

Does Jorg murder a whole lot of people?

He certainly kills a lot of people. Aside from a bunch who are blown up (he didn't plan on an explosion) the vast majority are killed in armed combat.

But I'm fine with writing a book where someone murders a bunch of innocents. This isn't that book, but if it made a good tale, sure I would happily have an infinite number of word-people killed.

Does he rape?

There are 50 or so words covering a memory of an incident where we might assume he did. It wouldn't stand up as evidence in court and it doesn't happen 'live' - it's the memory of an 'off-stage' event. But let's agree for the sake of argument that he has.

I don't see how that forms any sort of argument against anything I've said.

Are there fewer decent characters than a Joe A or Bakker?

I can't really say. I've not read Joe A. I've read one Bakker book and the cast was so large it doesn't make much sense to compare numbers. But actually my feeling is that there's a not dissimilar ratio of 'decent' characters to not so decent in Prince of Thorns as in Prince of Nothing. It's a subjective judgement of course.

Does it have "rather fewer characters who approach decentness. Or sanity. Or anything like a single redeeming virtue"? Is this accurate: "Jorg is a rapist, an unconflicted murderer, a character who comes across as a sociopath dialled up to the max living in a world of (male) sociopaths"?

Accurate isn't a sensible word to use when someone is talking about how a character comes across to them. I see no reason to believe that whoever wrote that was lying about how the character came across to them. The character comes across very differently to many other people.

Is this a quote from your book, Mark?

Well now you sound like a hostile prosecutor in a court drama. Do we seriously expect that a review will put in quotes something that isn't a quote.

The real question is why anyone should believe that one line provides a meaningful summary of a book or characterises it. I could find a different line and say this line proves the book is a comedy, or a work of philosophy, or centres on comradeship, yadda yadda. The game of cherry picking the lines isn't productive.

Yeah. Sounds like a "sophisticated character study" to me.

So a single line destroys my assessment of what I wrote. I don't agree.

You want to write that kind of dark skeevy stuff, more power. Readers eat that stuff up and enjoy it, more power. It's still damned creepy to me that people would want to spend their time inside the heads of these kinds of characters or in that kind of world. But then again, some people like to pump a pump, to turn a phrase.

And here I'm lost. Apart from re-emphasising what a terrible humans you think we all are... what are you trying to say.

I disagree with your assessment. I disagree that your single line, your single factoids, tell me what my book is about.

I disagree with pretty much every single thing you say _but_ and it's a big but, I don't have a problem with it. You're not trying to tell me what to do. I'm not trying to tell you what to do.

Given that you're not objecting to me writing it... what are we talking about?
 
I've read lots of the authors accused of "grimdark" Erikson, Bakker, GRRM, Abercrombie, Lawrence, Morgan and many more.

I enjoy their subversion of my expectations, a lot!

Good to hear!

I also enjoy a lot of other fantasy - I don't think anyone would accuse Bujold, Brust, Rothuss, Novik, Jesmin or Abraham of writing "torture porn".

As far as I can remember there are no scenes of anyone being tortured in either Prince of Thorns or King of Thorns. I don't recall any in A Darkness That Comes Before either except for some brief failed attempt at the end on a demonic thing that felt no pain and laughed at them.

Edit: There was a harrowing scene with an animal in King of Thorns. I hold it to be one of the most important scenes in the book and in no way gratuitous. I've seen dozens of reviews and none of them have differed from my view on that aspect.
 
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