Inferiority and Writing

[Erin99]

Not quite following what you mean, and I've read it a dozen times. Maybe I'm due for a break on the couch to rest!

 

[Mouse]

I think Anya's referring to Katie Price.

 

[Ursa major]

At the moment, I'm not imagining anything at all.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

oh lol wrong Jordan sorry. I was only half hearted in my following of the thread. Look at it this way if you book isn't any good just make it pink and put a fairy, unicorn or kitten on the front it will sell by the millions among preteen girls. The actual content doesn't matter .

 

[Glitch]

And thinking of Jordan. You could sell millions to the boys by putting... hmm, perhaps I shouldn't continue that line of thought!

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I want a big chested woman in a camp fairy t-shirt on the front of my detectives but it may put off a large section of my intended audience.

 

[Erin99]

Oh. My. Goodness! Would I EVER read JORDAN?!?!?! The world will freeze before I pick up her. I'm not into celebrities, and I'm so far from girly, I'm all hard lines and angles...

Nope, I'm into the Robert kind of Jordan.


Kittens, though. Hmmm. Now that's worth considering. I already have cats in my world (I had to, sorry).

 

[Glitch]

Release two versions with different covers.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

LOL I hadn't read Hare Brain's full post and only half read yours. When I used my brain and read both yours made much more sense

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Leisha to put, maybe, a different perspective for you-- I picked up the Wheel of Time and hated it utterley. Ditto GRRM. What I am trying to say us that, for you he is the acme, for others an anaethma. So, too, your own writing.

What is perfection for you as a reader is anything but for another. So, have faith that yours will resonate with its own people.

 

[Boneman]

I WILL make mine better, I have to, but it's... humbling... to read something that has made me so awed. I'd never read anything that had got to me in such a way. And that's with the series' flaws. The thing is, I'm realistic. I know the chances of publishers liking my work enough to print. First and foremost I've written - and write - my stories for me, and I wouldn't get far if I didn't write something I loved. But now I know what (to me) an exceptional tale is, I'm struggling with thoughts about my own work - even if only I ever read it. Sounds silly, I know...

The thing is, we're never awed by our own work, are we? Surprised sometimes, at how good it's turned out, (or vice versa) but you can bet your bottom dollar Jordan wasn't awed by his own work - probably had all kinds of doubts/nagging worries the same way we all do. It's for others to be awed by our words, and I feel you do yourself a disservice (understandable, but nonetheless...) in trying to compare your work to anyone else's. In a year or two people could be in awe of your work and saying: 'I'll never be able to live up to that'. You have to remember that every single writer was once like you - struggling to get it finished, rejected left right and centre, editing until the cows came home, and full of self-doubt. Those that finally made it are the ones who stuck at it, improving, improving, improving, until finally their worth was noticed and rewarded. (Okay, the process is a lot longer than that, but you know what I mean.)

It's a shame Robert Jordan isn't here to tell you himself, because I'm certain that's what he'd say. I have a writing hero, as you may know. All I can say in comparing myself is this: I'm older (wiser?), slimmer, more clean-shaven, different nationality, and I adore marmite. But Patrick Rothfuss took 14 years to make it, and rewrote his books so many times he couldn't recount the exact number. He was rejected - in his own words - by every known agent in the universe, before winning The writer's of the Future competion, which got him noticed by another writer who said "you should send this to my agent". Fine, a little bit of luck at the end, but he wouldn't have made it if he didn't have self-belief. And you have to have that, and you do: you know your writing is exceptional, and you'll stick at it, no matter what. Robert Jordan would be proud of you. Twee? Maybe. True? Definitely.

 

[Erin99]

If Jordan were here, he'd be in danger of getting a huuuuge hug from me!!!

What you say has to be true, in the sense of writers never awed by their own work. Jordan spent years and years trying, writing, trying more... and he achieved what he did through hard work and dedication. Not only did he create a compelling plot, he created a whole vast world. Yet, if asked, I bet he would say he was merely lucky to have such a dedicated fan base, and only got where he did through never giving up.

But I think what he wrote is something not every writer can aim for. He's the biggest adult-fantasy-series' author for a reason. Even years and years writing, planning, world-building, and honing would not get us near his level.


I've written my novel for years, trying to get it up to some over-the-top expectation of mine. In the end, after writing 150,000+ words and hacking the life out of it completely, I scrapped it and started again. It needs to be bigger, better... I realised that it's no good writing an "okay" book. A debut author needs to go out there with his best work, because if it truly is a book a year publishers want, writers won't have time to plan anything long and amazing. Jordan took over a year working out the ins and outs of his story - he couldn't have done that if he'd had only a couple of months to plan, several to write, a couple to edit, before throwing it at the expectant publishers within the year. We new writers need to make the most of our non-rushed time, to make our work into something special while we have the freedom. I've even seen people say Mieville's work could benefit from more time planning and writing, yet authors - especially top ones like him - aren't allowed much.


So, lately I've seen how vital it is to write something exceptional. Stories have to be amazing to be taken on; there's a whole chain of people in publishing houses who need to LOVE your book before it will get taken on. Some people even get agents but not publishing deals. It's all so pressured.

See? We need to up our game if we're to stand a chance of getting our work out there. Which is why I am content to keep chugging away as long as it takes - I don't feel the need to send my work to agents; it's nowhere near the standard I want, so I'd just get form rejections. And yes, I got a novelette accepted for publication, by a decent small press, but it means nothing because short stories are a different beast to novels. Novels - series - must be amazing, must be able to sustain tension and conflict and great characterisation for a long time. VERY different beasts. Zelazny once said something along the lines of: "In novels your protagonist can go to a bar just to soak up the atmosphere; in short stories, they can't".



Springs - you tried the WoT?! How far did you get? I've been waiting for someone to try book two, because book one isn't the best book at all (it's my least fav). Did you get that far? Or did you get that far but still not like Jordan's writing?



Thank you for the replies, everyone.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Not far, Leisha, but I'm not a fan of epic.

I disagree about the not putting things out there, btw. If we didn't, we would never get a barometer of what does work. Also, each book brings a new skill, only by writing to the end and then putting it out do I stop fixing it and get on with the next. It might take a few for me to get picked up,but I have to believe there is a chance - because there are books being published, all the time,and one of them could be mine. But not if I don't submit.

 

[allmywires]

I disagree about the not putting things out there, btw. If we didn't, we would never get a barometer of what does work. Also, each book brings a new skill, only by writing to the end and then putting it out do I stop fixing it and get on with the next. It might take a few for me to get picked up,but I have to believe there is a chance - because there are books being published, all the time,and one of them could be mine. But not if I don't submit.

I agree with this, although I don't think submitting to agents really is a helpful way of telling you whether it works or not. That's more the beta reader side of things. Well obviously it does tell you if it doesn't work, but not why, et cetera.

 

[JoanDrake]

Besides yourself, has anyone else been telling you that your stuff sucks compares to Robert Jordan? (I assume you meant the guy who wrote Crown of Swords, etc, etc, etc, right?)

I've only read a little of him, I really couldn't take much more. (Maybe I should try again, I dunno). I realise he's popular but I know several people (no names, please) who think he's an overblown hack. Right now I agree.

Oh, and I generally like Epic Fantasy, so that's not it.

Also, as an aside, a fairly successful writer I know is adamant in his opinion you should NEVER throw anything anyway. It's only electrons in the cloud, after all, and Stephen King has said he constantly regrets all that dreck in those comp books he burned after they started sending him desperate appeals for his laundry lists.

Returning to the subject, remember, NO professionally published and damned few self-published books were just set down and wrote straight off. They're usually the products of several actual years of hard work and that work is often by many people who aren't even mentioned.

Have you ever tried to send off one of these stories that just wasn't good enough, and seen what an actual editor who makes his living selling this stuff has to say about it?

I say this mainly because you don't seem to have the major problem of most "aspiring" writers, (like myself) who do a lot more aspiring than perspiring. It seems you can produce but you can't produce good enough to satisfy yourself. That seems a common problem among all productive writers, successful ones included.

 

[Erin99]

I'm confident one day I WILL reach a point where I'm happy with my novel. I thought I was well on the way before I read Jordan, cos I was actually writing something that was pacy and fun and, I'd hoped, interesting. But now my hope's in the air cos I've slipped on my butt.

Anyway, it's not as if I'll stop writing, so I'm chugging along and writing book one. When I get to the end, I can see how I feel. My novel won't be able to compete with my literary hero D), but I'll have had fun writing it. And I will try to improve it. My partner will tell me whether I'm getting there, at least (and at last!).



And people really have to get into the thick of Jordan's books ("plot") before they will see how much of a genius he was. It may be flawed, and he isn't a prose master (though his prose is cosy and he uses some nice wording), but it works on so many levels and is the best epic fantasy I've read. Book two really opened my eyes, and by book seven I was feeling inadequate as a writer!


Joan - I've only sent off one short story to one place, since my novel isn't there yet. My other short is sitting waiting for a final edit, though I've decided I might just pop it on my site after the edit and not try to sell it. I dunno. Anyway, I already paid one agent to assess my WIP and offer suggestions, which has always inspired me to push my limits and keep going on it.

Anywhoo, I didn't start the threat to wail about my writing, so I'll shut up now. I only wondered if others have been through what I have and what they'd done about it.

 

[Ursa major]

But now my hope's in the air cos I've slipped on my butt.

And people really have to get into the thick of Jordan's books ("plot") before they will see how much of a genius he was. It may be flawed...

Sounds like the main difference is that you're floored, and Jordan's prose is flawed.

So not so different....

 

[Gumboot]

Personally I find it relatively easy. When I read a fantastic book that really impresses me there's naturally a bit of depression that follows, as my own work never ever feels like it matches the standard, but it's a feeling that tends to quickly fade.

For me, the key thing is to know your strengths, and write to them, and to know your own voice. I don't concern myself too much with comparing myself to other writers, because I'm not telling the same story as other writers. And I know my strengths, and I let my writing exploit and focus on those strengths.

Worldbuilding and action are my strengths. And I'm as good as or better than anyone else I've encountered in those two categories. So George RR Martin's characterisation and Patrick Rothfuss' plotting don't depress me.

Robert Jordan's worldbuilding is terrible, by the way. Almost as bad as Tolkien's.

 

[D-E-M-Emrys]

Just think of it like this:

You'll never be as good as the next page you write, or as bad as the last one.

 

[Erin99]

Can I ask, Gumboot, in what ways do you find Jordan and Tolkien's world-building terrible? I'm genuinely curious! I see odd little flaws here and there, such as the geography of Jordan's continent and the fact that they all speak the same language, and I see that none of the past Ages were gone into in much detail (they're not necessary anyway), but... how he'd designed his races and places... Wow! Amazing. And Tolkien wrote from the first God, Eru Ilúvatar, to the spirits who wrote the Songs that created the world, to the Ages we know and love. He created an entire mythology, a world, races, languages (self-consistent and consistent to other languages)... how can anyone say he's bad at world-building? He's the one you can't really level that complaint at.

Anyway, the inevitable question, since you've piqued my curiosity: do you have anything published, or are you a struggling writer, too? It's nice to compare and try to find positives about your own work, but to say you're better than anyone else could be misleading... to you and others. If you already think you beat others, what drive is there to improve further? For example, I think one of my strengths is characterisation, but I wouldn't say I'm better than the top-selling writers at it, and I certainly will keep striving to improve and learn. Just something to consider.


D-E-M - welcome! It's nice to meet you.

You'll never be as good as the next page you write, or as bad as the last one.

I hope that's true. For some, it's not.