Star Trek: Into Darkness (2013)

I would like to point out that I'm not attacking the actors, if anything they were the only things that made this abortion watchable.

Well, that and the SFX (think God they toned down the lens flares).

My last post is towards that the ridicules screenplay and child-like and unimaginative writing/story.
 
Rather agree with just about everything you said. One could write a book on all the impossibilities, absurdities, plot holes, and stupid gimmicks in this film.

To go from the powerful sequence of Spock's sacrifice and the aftermath in Wrath of Khan to Kirk's heroic but pointless sacrifice in this movie (because we already know how he will be saved) is a travesty.

Wrath of Khan - Huge emotional moment.
Into Darkness - "He's gone. No, I'm not quite dead yet!" and "I'm gettin betta!!" I half expected a walk on by John Cleese!

Also agree it is the actors who make it watchable. In fact it is the interaction between the cast that makes this movie fun to watch. Really its only saving grace.....
 
I went into the cinema with low expectations so I was pleasantly surprised that I enjoyed the film. However, I've noted that with this one, as with the previous film, I don't remember much about it afterwards and the "magic" certainly doesn't linger. My favourite Trek film is Star Trek IV (I love the humor) and I happily rewatch it and the "magic" stays with me for long afterwards. For me, that is the greatest failing of the new Trek films - I just don't feel that special spark.
 
There were indeed a lot of plot holes. The Enterprise is "hiding" under water? I mean the people they were trying to save from the volcano were very primitive---so why not just "hide" by staying in orbit and beaming down as usual? Transporters broken down again?
 
No the transporter is just being finicky. They can't beam up, but they can beam down! lol.
 
Someone explain to me why this film is successful, if we're all agreed that it's sickeningly terrible? And let's try to avoid the easy answers that make us feel comfortable.
 
I'm not sure you read the whole of this thread. I for one did not find it terrible. I rather liked it. Sure, it had some flaws, but don't we all?;)
 
Whether the film is any good or not, I'd be willing to bet it's strong showing is in large part based on people's opinion of Star Trek 2009, but that's probably only one aspect of it .
 
Someone explain to me why this film is successful, if we're all agreed that it's sickeningly terrible? And let's try to avoid the easy answers that make us feel comfortable.

It's not terrible. People are just over critical to a fault which ruins any possible enjoyment they could feel towards it.

I think it is sad that people feel this compulsive need to pick apart what is clearly one of the most, if not thee most entertaining movie to come out in years, rather than just sitting back and enjoying it for what it was. As Parson said, nothing is perfect. If you keep looking for perfection, you will be disappointed every single time.

There are barely any "good" movies coming out these days, but Star Trek: Into Darkness is definitely one of the good ones.
 
I would say that anyone who's been following the Star Trek movie franchise has been essentially given a primer in dramatic presentation and filmed storytelling unparalleled in the history of movie going. Trying to craft a tale that will entertain such a fan base whilst simultaneously be 'market standard' enough to give the stockholders a big hard-on was a monumentally challenging undertaking. What came out of such an effort must be examined in this vein.
 
It's not terrible. People are just over critical to a fault which ruins any possible enjoyment they could feel towards it.

I think it is sad that people feel this compulsive need to pick apart what is clearly one of the most, if not thee most entertaining movie to come out in years, rather than just sitting back and enjoying it for what it was. As Parson said, nothing is perfect. If you keep looking for perfection, you will be disappointed every single time.

There are barely any "good" movies coming out these days, but Star Trek: Into Darkness is definitely one of the good ones.

It all comes down to "suspension of disbelief". All sorts of impossible things happen in SFF, not least faster-than-light travel, so viewers have to accept certain things which we know are impossible, by suspending our normal reaction of disbelief. The extent to which that is possible depends on two things: how well the "impossible" things are presented, and the attitude and knowledge of the individual viewer.

I have no problems with suspending disbelief for any of the usual SFF themes, including super-powers and time travel. That goes with the territory - if you don't like that, watch and read something else. However, it is essential for maintaining suspension of disbelief that the story is internally consistent. If the story puts forward a Transporter which is limited to orbital distances and somebody suddenly uses it for interstellar travel without any explanation, that breaks the rules of the game. So does including things which manifestly make no sense within the context of the story.

Very often it's quite mundane things which cause suspension of disbelief to be broken. For instance, in the film Battleship I was prepared to accept, for the purposes of the story, hostile aliens arriving in response to an interstellar signal, but what finally blew if for me was the scenes in which the heroes reactivated a museum battleship and sailed it out to do battle. I know something about such ships, and what they showed was impossible on so many simple, practical levels that I just burst out laughing.

It is usually possible to fine-tune a story to avoid the sort of basic mistakes which cause suspension of disbelief to be broken. A few adjustments could have turned STID into a much more credible story. Sadly, film makers don't seem to bother with such details these days; they appear to believe that as long as they put in enough dramatic CGI action scenes, the young teenagers who seem to be the target audience for such films won't notice the mistakes, let alone care.
 
The example you gave to explain "suspension of disbelief" has an internal inconsistency. You admit to having foreknowledge of the technical aspects you cite as "unbelievable."

I've heard a fifth degree black belt say the same thing about action scenes in a martial arts movie. The problem seems less with the credibility of what's being filmed and more with the very concrete foreknowledge present in the viewer.

"Suspension of disbelief" sounds like a euphemism constructed in a marketing meeting to me. What you're really talking about (the uncomfortable subject the euphemism is hiding) is "Belief."

If you believe people will one day master faster-than-light travel, that gets you in the door, but trying to hold every aspect of the work under a microscope doesn't sound to me like you even want to believe. It is more likely in my mind that such a person is presupposing unbelievability prior to viewing the work, which by its very nature would work counter to acceptance of the work.
 
I very much enjoyed the first Star Trek movie featuring the new cast. Pleasantly surprised that the casting of the characters was as good as it turned out to be. Even Simon Pegg, who was great in Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz & Paul, seemed like an odd choice at first to be the new Scotty, but I was happy to see he did well with the material. Haven't seen ST Into Darkness yet, but I have good expectations for it. My favorite Star Trek movies as a whole are ST II The Wrath of Khan, ST The Voyage Home & ST First Contact. All the rest of them are good, except I didn't care for ST The Motion Picture as it was too dull for my tastes.
 
Haven't seen ST Into Darkness yet, .

You probably shouldn't be reading this thread then. Some considerable spoilers involved.

The example you gave to explain "suspension of disbelief" has an internal inconsistency. You admit to having foreknowledge of the technical aspects you cite as "unbelievable."


I would agree with this. You see, the technicality of the transporters issue didn't even cross my mind. But I'm not a "Trekkie", I'm just an average moviegoer, so I have no real knowledge about the suggested science behind it.

Although I'm willing to accept there could be very good reasons why the transporters could only work one way. Perhaps because they needed the source target to be in a controlled and stable environment for the transporter to work in the ship's seriously damaged state. Clearly the destination didn't need to be in the same controlled environment.

Kahn was using a special transporter based on Scotty's design from the previous movie to teleport to Kronos, more advanced than the one the Enterprise has. This is secret technology the government was keeping to themselves, along with knowledge of Khan.
 
The example you gave to explain "suspension of disbelief" has an internal inconsistency.

Exactly. The author or scriptwriter of any SFF work can create a new set of rules for how their universe works. As long as they are presented plausibly, that's fine by me. What they can't then do without destroying the credibility of their work is to break their own rules without any explanation (if a moderately plausible explanation is provided, that's OK).

You admit to having foreknowledge of the technical aspects you cite as "unbelievable."

I've heard a fifth degree black belt say the same thing about action scenes in a martial arts movie. The problem seems less with the credibility of what's being filmed and more with the very concrete foreknowledge present in the viewer.

Yes, that's true, as I said in my previous post - this depends on the knowledge of the viewer. It also depends on the attitude of the film-maker or author. As I also said, if all they are concerned about is targeting an audience of young teens, they can get away with a lot more.

I also said that the reasons for a loss of credibility can be very mundane, and can require no specialist knowledge. For instance, I once started to read a novel in which the wreck of an alien spaceship was found drifting in the Solar System. The first alarm bell sounded when one of the discoverers left his craft and jumped "down" onto the spaceship (there are no ups and downs where there is no gravity). Then the explorers entered a huge interior hall, so damaged that it was open to space - a complete vacuum. But the author describes their torch beams crossing the hall (you can only see torch beams when they hit something on the way - like dust, smoke or clouds - you wouldn't see them in a vacuum). If the author couldn't be bothered to get such basic science right, I couldn't be bothered to carry on reading....


"Suspension of disbelief" sounds like a euphemism constructed in a marketing meeting to me. What you're really talking about (the uncomfortable subject the euphemism is hiding) is "Belief."

If you believe people will one day master faster-than-light travel, that gets you in the door, but trying to hold every aspect of the work under a microscope doesn't sound to me like you even want to believe. It is more likely in my mind that such a person is presupposing unbelievability prior to viewing the work, which by its very nature would work counter to acceptance of the work.

I disagree entirely. You seem to have misunderstood my post.

For me to have "belief" in a story would mean that I believe it to be true, which obviously no-one does when it comes to SFF (apart from a few deluded souls).

SFF fans (and I have been one for over half a century) need two different mindsets: the "everyday" way of thinking, in which we are automatically sceptical about anything which doesn't sound likely in our experience (we tend to get more sceptical as we become more experienced); and the "fiction" mindset, it which we temporarily switch-off our normal scepticism in order to enjoy whatever fantastical ideas the author or scriptwriter has decided to present.

As I said, I happily read and watch fiction which includes such impossibilities as FTL travel, time travel, alternate universes, super-powers, magic and so on. I have no problems suspending my normal disbelief - that is, switching off my usual scepticism - to accept the author's world and enjoy such fiction. But the world created in such fiction needs to be internally consistent, and the author needs to avoid making basic mistakes where logic or simple science are concerned. If these rules are broken, so is my suspension of disbelief.
 
For a Star Trek movie to do anything more interesting than it has done before, you are requiring an additional 30 minutes of dialogue per movie explaining why the plot devices in question are getting the characters into the story?

Otherwise known as "Star Trek: The Motion Picture?"
 
I understand the comments that being too critical of a movie will shoot most movies down. That is pretty much a given.

What bothers me personally is that this particular pendulum has swung too far to the side where there is no attempt to make any sense at all. Directors get a great idea concept in their head, and that is what they want to film. That it is inconsistent with the rules as set forth in the story is not given a second thought.

My wish would be for there to be some swing back in the direction of attempting to keep some sense of continuity within a fictional world. And this goes for any genre, not just SF.

Modern directors are just being lazy and sloppy. That does not make for great movies.
 
I understand the comments that being too critical of a movie will shoot most movies down. That is pretty much a given.

What bothers me personally is that this particular pendulum has swung too far to the side where there is no attempt to make any sense at all. Directors get a great idea concept in their head, and that is what they want to film. That it is inconsistent with the rules as set forth in the story is not given a second thought.

My wish would be for there to be some swing back in the direction of attempting to keep some sense of continuity within a fictional world. And this goes for any genre, not just SF.

Modern directors are just being lazy and sloppy. That does not make for great movies.

Another big problem (perhaps you meant this as well) is the "more is better" approach, where the rules of inertia are disregarded, people are thrown into concrete walls and then are up and fighting again within seconds, etc.

One example in the new ST movie was when Khan and Kirk were in space suits going from ship to ship, encountering literally hundreds of bits of debris, dodging them all. One or two would have sufficed, and would probably have made for more suspense.

On another point, the role reversal of Kirk and Spock where the same lines are spoken... you know the one... groan inducing!
 
Another big problem (perhaps you meant this as well) is the "more is better" approach, where the rules of inertia are disregarded, people are thrown into concrete walls and then are up and fighting again within seconds, etc.

One example in the new ST movie was when Khan and Kirk were in space suits going from ship to ship, encountering literally hundreds of bits of debris, dodging them all. One or two would have sufficed, and would probably have made for more suspense.

On another point, the role reversal of Kirk and Spock where the same lines are spoken... you know the one... groan inducing!

In your opinion!

This attitude towards STID can only be called one thing.

It seems quite a number of people have grown to think of the Star Trek franchise as being "above" the rest of the movie business, as though the focus on drama and characterization came about because The Magical Wizard Nickmeyer waved his hands and cast an enchantment over it, saying "thou shalt never more be 'low art.'"

The truth of the matter, as Pauline Kael noted in her review of WoK back in 1982, was that the actors appeared "flabby and embarrassed" in TMP. Harve Bennett decided to start doing stories about old age for just this reason.

I bet he never expected fans of his Trek movies to then go ape...ricots over a slim, young cast being hired to relieve the aging original cast. As a matter of fact, he had the idea to do it back before Star Trek V got made!

The attitude you are taking towards the JJ Treks can only be called one thing, and must only be called one thing: SNOBBERY. Total, utter, universal snobbery from people who love to armchair quarterback the professionals from the Internet!

STID is just what Pauline Kael described WoK as in the first three words of her review in The New Yorker, back in 1982:

"Wonderful, dumb fun."
 
The attitude you are taking towards the JJ Treks can only be called one thing, and must only be called one thing: SNOBBERY. Total, utter, universal snobbery from people who love to armchair quarterback the professionals from the Internet!

To use your phrase: "In your opinion!".

I have noticed that you like to categorise and pigeon-hole other people's opinions in a negative way whenever they differ from yours. You tried that once before with me and badly missed the mark.

I enjoyed the ST:TNG TV series and associated films but wouldn't consider myself a "fan" - I've never watched any of them more than once, for instance, and have no interest in doing so.

What I'm looking for in an SFF film is an intriguing and gripping plot which makes sense within its own terms, some visual spectacle, and characters I can relate to with a hero(ine) (or more than one) I can empathise with. In other words, apart from the visual spectacle, much the same as I want from any other type of film.

For me, ST:ITD scores highly on the visual spectacle, quite well on the plot (it's better than most such films and is spoiled mainly by the detailed internal inconsistencies and illogicalities we've been focusing on recently), and badly on the characters. As I observed in my review, Kirk is an unattractive character who I didn't care about and the usual supporting cast came across to me as one-dimensional caricatures. The villain Harrison/Khan was the only impressive one.

But that's just my opinion - others are entitled to differ, without me slagging them off.
 

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