Declare yourselves openly

I'm not offended by the words "lunatic" or "idiot". What unnerved me was the immediate and derisive assumption that the entire concept of ableism was a joke.

I'll admit, I did laugh aloud at the "PC is getting really old" line.

PC is the evolution of the concepts of NOT-racism and NOT-sexism, both of which are in turn younger than my mum. PC and I were both born in the 80s.

There's eight THOUSAND years to get sick of racism and sexism (viz., all of human history) and about thirty to get impatient with political correctness. So I laughed--thus the juvenile response.

My tone was just awful, I know.
 
I'm not offended by the words "lunatic" or "idiot". What unnerved me was the immediate and derisive assumption that the entire concept of ableism was a joke.

I'll admit, I did laugh aloud at the "PC is getting really old" line.

PC is the evolution of the concepts of NOT-racism and NOT-sexism, both of which are in turn younger than my mum. PC and I were both born in the 80s.

There's eight THOUSAND years to get sick of racism and sexism (viz., all of human history) and about thirty to get impatient with political correctness. So I laughed--thus the juvenile response.

My tone was just awful, I know.

Right on.

Recorded human history goes back 6000 years, but humans arose in Africa about 200,000 years ago. I might be cynical, but I think this kind of thing is a tad older than writing.

It must be maddening to people when they get called out for being racist, sexist, or homophobic bigots now. Imagine that. Actually having to take responsibility for what you say, surely the world must be coming to an end.
 
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So I've read most of it now, though I can't seem to find the original text of the first bulletin, the one where he tells the story about the beautiful editor. I have read their second article, about anonymity and censorship though.

And the Ann Aguirre piece, which seems to me so much more important, is heartbreaking, mostly because I would hope that these cons are being put on and attended by enough folks who were raised to know better, and yet, they are still creating this hostile environment for Ann and writers like her.

Not being a member of SFWA, I've still not read the original piece, and I've not read the original blowback, but if it does come down to a story about the female editor from the fifties being beautiful and the use of lady as an adjective, combined with that cover, then I would have liked to see this handled differently.

The use of lady as an adjective makes me cringe, but so did my great uncle's use of colored to describe black people, even though he was decidedly not a racist, and I'm sure my use of black instead of African American will make others cringe, but it is what it is. I too am a product of my generation.

It seems what Resnick has taken the most umbrage to is that no one brought their concerns directly to them, which, hey, on the surface sounds like a legitimate kvetch. Who knows, doing so might have started an actual dialogue. For him to spin that complaint out into the straw man arguments concerning anonymity and censorship was ridiculous though.

I do think how that claim of censorship is handled going forward will be interesting. What is this board, which so many of the commentators think will "fix" the issue, going to do? My guess is implement some heavier-handed editing. My guess is you won't read about lady insert-occupation here anymore in the SFWA bulletin. But wouldn't that be censorship if Resnick is still writing it and its getting cut?

I think it'd be better to get a feminist SF writer or editor to write a regular article addressing the systemic issues that lead to the problems Ann Aguirre wrote about, to start discussing some of these problems using a layperson's language, without the academic jargon that assumes you've taken all the same classes or done the same research they have (or at least if you're going to use terms like cisgendered and ableist, explain them), and if Resnick and company continue to write sexist stuff (even if they don't at first realize it to be so, which is what I'm leaning toward in this case unless I can read the original text and find otherwise), then turn it into a learning moment for the whole community.

Anyway. I obviously got way to wrapped up in this, and like the others involved, I've probably gotten a bit more defensive than the episode deserved. I think it's because the first author's reaction jolted me back to some pretty ugly and unnecessarily sardonic diatribes in grad school, where, by the way, I discovered I too had bought into a lot of sexist conditioning. ;)
 
I do think how that claim of censorship is handled going forward will be interesting. What is this board, which so many of the commentators think will "fix" the issue, going to do? My guess is implement some heavier-handed editing. My guess is you won't read about lady insert-occupation here anymore in the SFWA bulletin. But wouldn't that be censorship if Resnick is still writing it and its getting cut?

Censorship is really a non-issue here. He's paid to write for the Bulletin. If the purchasing editor doesn't like what's there, they have the right to edit, or if the original author objects, they have the right to refuse buying the piece. That's not censorship. Not even close. If Resnick feels that strongly about it, I'm sure he can publish it somewhere else. He does have a website, and I would assume a Facebook page as well as several other avenues to publish an article.

I think it'd be better to get a feminist SF writer or editor to write a regular article addressing the systemic issues that lead to the problems Ann Aguirre wrote about, to start discussing some of these problems using a layperson's language, without the academic jargon that assumes you've taken all the same classes or done the same research they have (or at least if you're going to use terms like cisgendered and ableist, explain them), and if Resnick and company continue to write sexist stuff (even if they don't at first realize it to be so, which is what I'm leaning toward in this case unless I can read the original text and find otherwise), then turn it into a learning moment for the whole community.

That sounds like a great idea; I couldn't agree more.
 
Censorship is really a non-issue here. He's paid to write for the Bulletin. If the purchasing editor doesn't like what's there, they have the right to edit, or if the original author objects, they have the right to refuse buying the piece. That's not censorship. Not even close. If Resnick feels that strongly about it, I'm sure he can publish it somewhere else. He does have a website, and I would assume a Facebook page as well as several other avenues to publish an article.

Ah, that makes sense. I guess it's more likely to lead to self-censorship, if that fits. I was accepting their definition of censorship I suppose, using the sort of examples they were describing from their past.

I'm not offended by the words "lunatic" or "idiot". What unnerved me was the immediate and derisive assumption that the entire concept of ableism was a joke.

Not to speak for Verse, but he didn't deride ableism as a joke. He said that he'd just been introduced to the concept, and it was hard to take seriously. I could see how such a concept may take a bit to mull over before it really clicks.
 
... start discussing some of these problems using a layperson's language, without the academic jargon that assumes you've taken all the same classes or done the same research they have (or at least if you're going to use terms like cisgendered and ableist, explain them)

Actually, the onus is on you to discover what they mean. It's not their job to educate you. They have enough on trying to defend themselves against sexism, racism, ableism, etc.

But then discussions like this are a learning experience for all involved, which is how it should be :)

Here's a site everyone should read: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

As for "political correctness", I'm with Polly Toynbee, who defined it as "an empty, right-wing smear, designed only to elevate its user". :)
 
Ah, that makes sense. I guess it's more likely to lead to self-censorship, if that fits. I was accepting their definition of censorship I suppose, using the sort of examples they were describing from their past.

The article quoted by OP takes apart those examples piece by piece.

Not to speak for Verse, but he didn't deride ableism as a joke. He said that he'd just been introduced to the concept, and it was hard to take seriously. I could see how such a concept may take a bit to mull over before it really clicks.

I'll quote it, shall I?

I have trouble taking a blog seriously that is so politically correct that it won't use the terms 'lunacy' or 'idiocy' because they are apparently ableist (I had to look that up).

He's not able to take the blog post seriously because of how ridiculous the concept of ableism seems to him.

I think you're both probably good chaps and I understand how the idea that people don't agree with you in terms of your unconscious assumptions takes time to get used to, but as Ian says, the onus is on you (and Reznik and Malzburg) to adjust.

I have a problem with the term "political correctness" too--it's not about paying lip service from your position of privilege. It's about, as Terry Pratchett says, not treating people like things.
 
Actually, the onus is on you to discover what they mean. It's not their job to educate you. They have enough on trying to defend themselves against sexism, racism, ableism, etc.

But then discussions like this are a learning experience for all involved, which is how it should be :)

Here's a site everyone should read: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

And that link details this derailment technique...

If the marginalized person involved is speaking in vernacular and placing too much emphasis on personal experience, you must swiftly impress that you cannot consider it a proper “debate” unless theory and philosophy play a key component, complete with big words normally not found outside of academic papers. This is another way of pressing home your own privilege by demanding the conversation take place on terms the marginalized person may not be intimate with


By all means let the debate be educational for all, but using jargon as a weapon without explanation shouldn't be employed by anybody.

(interesting site, btw)
 
By all means let the debate be educational for all, but using jargon as a weapon without explanation shouldn't be employed by anybody.

(interesting site, btw)[/FONT]

Except the person complaining about the terms isn't marginalised and isn't the one whose very real grievances are the topic of discussion (which would be Ann Aguirre).

Also, "jargon as a weapon" is impugning motives that may not be the case :)
 
Surely it's the duty of anyone making an argument, on any topic, to get their points across to those with whom they're debating. So:
  • if they are addressing their fellow academics/interest group, they will use technical language** appropriate to their disciple, as this will have precise meanings to all those involved***
  • if they are addressing the general public, they ought to use plain(er) language, otherwise the audience is likely**** to seek arguments elsewhere. Yes, it's probably far less precise, but where precision is really (really) important, a term can be used (with a plain language explanation of it).
By the way, I'm not getting at any particular area of debate; all sorts of disciplines have issues with the inappropriate use of jargon. (Earwigging on a meeting between, say, design, marketing, sales and finance ought to convince anyone of this.)


** - Technical language is jargon to non-experts, irrespective of the intentions of those using it. That some people use jargon to exclude others is just bad manners (or, in extreme cases, a bid to set up a power-relationship in which they are trying to marginalise those they are addressing). It seems particularly ironic for this to occur when discussing how bad the exclusion of others is.

*** - If someone within the discipline isn't sure of the meaning, then they probably are obliged to find out what a term means.

**** - Because not everyone has the time to learn all the technical language of the many topics they may encounter (and there's no guarantee that the definition, when found, doesn't include more almost impenetrable jargon). There could be a half-way house, I suppose, where a glossary is included to help those from outside the discipline. (And I understand that some authors use glossaries, in spite of the meaning of their prose and story coming across clearly in the main text. ;):))
 
Also, "jargon as a weapon" is impugning motives that may not be the case :)

As much as saying "tone argument" :)

And Ann Aguirre got her point across very effectively without using any jargon.

Edit: re "jargon as a weapon"; it was the "without explanation" part of that sentence which was important.
 
I'll quote it, shall I?

I have trouble taking a blog seriously that is so politically correct that it won't use the terms 'lunacy' or 'idiocy' because they are apparently ableist (I had to look that up).

He's not able to take the blog post seriously because of how ridiculous the concept of ableism seems to him.

Despite the quote being accurate you are misrepresenting me. I don't find ableism ridiculous, I didn't even know it was a thing before I came across the word. I'm a small dog and I lead a sheltered life (and you like cat's so I think you might be somewhat biased against me*). Perhaps it's because I have the privilege of not being mentally or physically disabled or chronically ill. What I decried as PC was that terms like 'lunacy' and 'idiocy' could not be used as they might offend someone who may have mental health or disability issues.

Now, after grepping the various wiki's on Feminism and Racism, I begin to understand that without experiencing prejudice or discrimination directly because of the colour of my skin or my (perceived) gender, I am probably incapable of understanding that certain phrases, terms and words, which I might think are innocuous, are in fact not so to people with those experiences. I extrapolate that the same will hold true in regard to ableism.

Fair enough, mea culpa, I have adjusted my opinions accordingly.

* DISCLAIMER: That was a joke based on the irony of a perceived prejudice in a conversation about prejudice. It may have been in poor taste.
 
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(and you like cat's so I think you might be somewhat biased against me*)

Bless you, trying to be cute. Misses the mark with me, but I acknowledge that it's harmless.

What I decried as PC was that terms like 'lunacy' and 'idiocy' could not be used as they might offend someone who may have those issues.

I mean, they *can*, of course they can...because it's not really a matter of can/cannot. It's more a matter of what's polite and what's wise. To my mind she was just being extra careful given the context, especially after a commenter noticed that it might strike a nerve with other commenters.

Nobody ever got offended: the blog author and her commenters both actively took (necessary or not) steps to avoid offending a potential reader.

(perceived) gender

Sorry, was I wrong? I was trying to go with the flow. Alas, I did assume you were a man from your wording/tone.

Fair enough, mea culpa, I have adjusted my opinions accordingly.

I think we might end up friends.
 
The article quoted by OP takes apart those examples piece by piece.

Actually, it doesn't. That article (http://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2013/06/02/old-men-yelling-at-clouds-sfwa-lunacy/ included just to make sure we're on the same page) only addresses one of the example they gave from their past of purported censorship, the one concerning "97% of the tribes in Africa."

It doesn't discuss, say, when one or the other of them had an editor remove a paragraph critical of a previous editor because the editor refused to print something critical of any editor or the other examples given, just the current episode and the matter of the African tribes. (This is why, by the way, I wish I had the actual source of the original article, so that I could see it too in its full context.)


He's not able to take the blog post seriously because of how ridiculous the concept of ableism seems to him.

I think you're both probably good chaps and I understand how the idea that people don't agree with you in terms of your unconscious assumptions takes time to get used to, but as Ian says, the onus is on you (and Reznik and Malzburg) to adjust.

I have a problem with the term "political correctness" too--it's not about paying lip service from your position of privilege. It's about, as Terry Pratchett says, not treating people like things.

Verse has answered for himself now, so I won't go on talking for him, but he didn't say it was ridiculous, just that he couldn't take it seriously. My point was that it sometimes takes time to go out and really understand a concept like that.

I'm not one for arguments, because I don't think they solve anything. They just harden each point of view and give each side a rah rah moment. This has pretty much been my take from the beginning of my posts, that I wish the whole SFWA debacle could have been more of a learning experience for those two guys, and what I have to assume are a fairly large group of folks who agree with them on the SFWA list.

I also agree that the onus for coming to terms with our own subconscious programming is on us, each and every one of us, but, if the idea is a large scale change in the subconscious predispositions of the majority, especially one orchestrated through minority influence, then using plain English to help people understand those subconscious predispositions is desirable.

As to political correctness, it is itself an attempt to change society through minority influence by changing language. I happen to think this is for the better, in this case, but I would hope, given the number of dystopias written on the subject, that it's easy to see that a similar use of linguistics philosophy could maybe not be so great, and that might cause a knee jerk reaction in some folks.
 
I think we're getting away from things here, people.

As far as approach goes, let me just say that the more than 20 pieces I've read on the topic reflect a range of approaches. Some are angry and confrontational, some are deeply personal, some aim to educate and others to extend an olive branch.

If that's the case, why are we arguing "which approach?" Whichever one you prefer, you can find because they are all already out there.
 
Sorry bout that. I guess I have been just restating my concerns in different ways, but I wasn't really arguing, just going with the flow of the conversation I thought, which kept returning to approach, I think, because none of us disagree with the actual points made. I think I just kept coming back to it because of the college experience I mentioned, in which approaches similar to the Australian poster most definitely did not help my own evolution on these matters. ;)
 
oh phew i was getting really tired of avoiding the word n***er it's not like there are black people still alive who took part in the race riots or anything it was like five hundred years ago or whatever, right?

Seriously? That's your response to my belief that politically correctness has gone too far? Going to the opposite extreme never proves a point. It is a pointless barb that adds nothing to a serious intellectual discussion.

If you think I am wrong, how about a reasoned argument explaining why instead.....
 
I'm not a moderator, but I sort of feel the need to give everyone some warm and fuzzy vibes so the heat dissipates a little! The Chrons are a uniquely safe space to discuss SF/F across political and ideological divides. It's easy to get heated--and there's nothing wrong with getting heated on your blog or twitter or wherever--but as I understand it, this place was designed to be something different. So everyone feel the love for everyone else :)
 
Nice idea, but some of us have cuddlier avatars than others. I'm not risking any group hug in which alchemist is involved.
 

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