3.09 The Rains of Castamere

[ZombieWife]

My husband hasn't read the books and he knows most peoples' names. He doesn't get them 100% correct all the time (He calls Theon "Theo," or Sansa "Sasha" for example). But, hey, it's close.

Ygritte always adds, "Jon Snow" after her sentences, so Jon is kind of easy.

"You know nothin', Jon Snow," and "Is that a castle, Jon Snow?"

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Why? Because it was a concession that came out of extortion of his liegelord. Yes, I read that House Frey is a vassal family of the Tully's here. What right did he have to refuse Robb's army passage in the first place? Is not doing so treason in itself?

Agreement under gunpoint (figuratively and literally) is not nearly as morally binding as other agreements, in my not very humble opinion.

At the time the promise was made (episode 10, series 1 I believe?) the riverlords (House Tully included) had not joined with Robb.

Indeed to get to Riverrun and relieve the siege, attack the Lannisters and capture Jaime the Northern Army had to cross the Red Fork and House Frey were the ones who had the only bridge to let such a large force do so.

House Frey had was neutral at the time and had not declared for any side in the conflict (even with House Tully under attack...) so when the agreement was made - and by the way, as well as being allowed to cross, Robb was also getting the soldiers of House Frey into his army - Walder Frey was picking a side and putting his family, lands and people at risk.

The fact it was a high price unreasonably demanded of him didn't stop Robb from agreeing to it at that stage.

Walder Frey is still a treacherous - and yes, treasonous as by the time the Red Wedding took place, his liegelord was under Robb's command - sod but he was right that Robb had betrayed their agreement.

Besides, the biggest traitor that night was Roose Bolton. His family has been under Stark fealty since time immemorial. That didn't stop him shoving a blade through Robb's heart.

 

[Darth Angelus]

At the time the promise was made (episode 10, series 1 I believe?) the riverlords (House Tully included) had not joined with Robb.

Ok, yes, so Frey wasn't technically betraying Robb by refusing him passage.

However, it was on behalf of Frey's liegelord that Robb was coming.

Indeed to get to Riverrun and relieve the siege, attack the Lannisters and capture Jaime the Northern Army had to cross the Red Fork and House Frey were the ones who had the only bridge to let such a large force do so.

House Frey had was neutral at the time and had not declared for any side in the conflict (even with House Tully under attack...)

Which seems rather treasonous of and by itself, if the Freys were a vassal family of the Tullys.
Not only did the Walder Frey ignore the summons of his liegelord. They would actively block reinforcements under his liegelord's relatives from coming to his liegelord's aid.

so when the agreement was made - and by the way, as well as being allowed to cross, Robb was also getting the soldiers of House Frey into his army - Walder Frey was picking a side and putting his family, lands and people at risk.

True. The question is whether he owed his liegelord to take risks. Under honour.

The fact it was a high price unreasonably demanded of him didn't stop Robb from agreeing to it at that stage.

Because Robb's relatives were in danger. Frey exploited that to extract a concession.

Walder Frey is still a treacherous - and yes, treasonous as by the time the Red Wedding took place, his liegelord was under Robb's command - sod but he was right that Robb had betrayed their agreement.

Which had been taken more or less under gunpoint, figuratively.

He has little to teach Robb about honour, anyway, having exploited his liegelord's need in such a way. That is my point.
I would not call him a hypocrite. It seems far too kind a word for him. He is clearly not as treacherous as the person he accuses of betraying the agreement, but infinitely more so.

Besides, the biggest traitor that night was Roose Bolton. His family has been under Stark fealty since time immemorial. That didn't stop him shoving a blade through Robb's heart.

Clearly, but they were both traitors.

It happened under Frey's roof, not Bolton's.

 

[Judderman]

I have read the books and I was still quite shocked when Jeyne good stabbed in the stomach. Brutal indeed!
My wife looked disgusted and then asked for it to be rewinded a few minutes to try to work out how Cat seemed to realise what was going on.

 

[TK-421]

Walder Frey needs to meet Stannis Baratheon.

 

[Darth Angelus]

I have read the books and I was still quite shocked when Jeyne good stabbed in the stomach. Brutal indeed!
My wife looked disgusted and then asked for it to be rewinded a few minutes to try to work out how Cat seemed to realise what was going on.

The stomach-stabbing of Talisa (the name of Jeyne's equivalent in the show) was indeed incredibly brutal and disgusted me as well.
I think it was fairly clear that it was what Walder said - something about showing Robb the hospitality he deserved - that started to make Cat suspicious and Roose Bolton's armor that confirmed it.

Walder Frey needs to meet Stannis Baratheon.

Indeed.

 

[ZombieWife]

Yeah, I think the stomach-stabbing went overboard, imho. They could have stabbed her in the heart with the same outcome here.

Walder Frey needs to meet Jaqen H'ghar or the business end of Drogon's fiery breath.

 

[Lenny]

Yeah, I think the stomach-stabbing went overboard, imho. They could have stabbed her in the heart with the same outcome here.

Ah, but from a storytelling point of view, there was a reason to it - look at the order of the deaths:

* Not-Jeyne's probable child
* Not-Jeyne
* Robb
* Catelyn

The impact of the deaths cascade up the chain, with each person seeing the one they love most die before they do: Not-Jeyne sees her probable child die; Robb sees Not-Jeyne die; Catelyn sees Robb die; Catelyn dies.

Sure, killing Not-Jeyne outright wouldn't break the chain (only forge it with fewer links), but by killing her probable child, Jeyne goes through the ultimate heartbreak before dying, adding extra weight.

Another aspect of the chain of deaths is that it all compounds on Catelyn, breaking her completely. She said, a few episodes back, that she felt responsible for the ruin raining down on House Stark (she prayed to the gods to keep Jon Snow from dying from illness as a boy, promising to treat him like her own son... but after he survived, she just couldn't go through with it). Her other children, in her mind, are dead or as good as dead, and now she has seen another woman lose a possible child (Catelyn is big on children), seen her son lose his wife, then seen (what she thinks is) her last remaining free child die. The sum total of the deaths, with the fact that each person's world crumbles before they die, is far more powerful than, say, just Robb getting killed.

Stabbing Not-Jeyne through the heart wouldn't have ruined the scene, that much is certain, but by stabbing her through the stomach and leaving her to bleed out knowing her probable child is dead adds that extra layer of impact, and also serves to shock the book readers - we knew the Red Wedding was coming, but even with our knowledge we didn't expect such brutality.

 

[Allegra]

You hammered it home, Lenny. I'd think this episode made a perfect final for the season. What lay ahead tomorrow, only you who read the books know.

 

[Darth Angelus]

Ah, but from a storytelling point of view, there was a reason to it - look at the order of the deaths:

* Not-Jeyne's probable child
* Not-Jeyne
* Robb
* Catelyn

The impact of the deaths cascade up the chain, with each person seeing the one they love most die before they do: Not-Jeyne sees her probable child die; Robb sees Not-Jeyne die; Catelyn sees Robb die; Catelyn dies.

Sure, killing Not-Jeyne outright wouldn't break the chain (only forge it with fewer links), but by killing her probable child, Jeyne goes through the ultimate heartbreak before dying, adding extra weight.

Another aspect of the chain of deaths is that it all compounds on Catelyn, breaking her completely. She said, a few episodes back, that she felt responsible for the ruin raining down on House Stark (she prayed to the gods to keep Jon Snow from dying from illness as a boy, promising to treat him like her own son... but after he survived, she just couldn't go through with it). Her other children, in her mind, are dead or as good as dead, and now she has seen another woman lose a possible child (Catelyn is big on children), seen her son lose his wife, then seen (what she thinks is) her last remaining free child die. The sum total of the deaths, with the fact that each person's world crumbles before they die, is far more powerful than, say, just Robb getting killed.

Stabbing Not-Jeyne through the heart wouldn't have ruined the scene, that much is certain, but by stabbing her through the stomach and leaving her to bleed out knowing her probable child is dead adds that extra layer of impact, and also serves to shock the book readers - we knew the Red Wedding was coming, but even with our knowledge we didn't expect such brutality.

A good point. I hadn't thought about it, but it is a chain.

The only thing I am wondering about is the fact that I understand Jeyne is alive it the series. As the novel series is not finished yet, it seems she could have a role to play yet. Probably not, but what if? It seems a tad risky to kill the TV-series equivalent off, not knowing for certain if she would be needed. Or did they ask GRRM?

 

[ZombieWife]

From what I read (and I may be wrong) GRRM wanted not-Jeyne at the wedding because book fans were convinced she'd been spirited away to Bolton's keep so she could birth the heir to Winterfell and Martin was tired of telling people, "No, didn't happen."

 

[ScottSF]

A bit of Levity: Tywin Lannister's Greatest Hits. Something I put together with a friend.

Tywin Lannister's Greatest Hits - YouTube

 

[Boaz]

Well, I just watched it again. Without the POV structure of the books, the show allows the viewer to feel much closer to Robb and Talisa.

 

[Darth Angelus]

And very soon, the TV-show will go on...

 

[Boaz]

Just watched it again...

Maybe it's that the first time, it's like "Jesus! All these people dying!!" and then when you know that's what happens the second time is just "Jesus...all these people dying..."

And the third time... it is horrific.

the loss of even more Starks was a huge shock, I think the archers shooting the direwolf upset me even more

tangaloomababe, Martin has presented the direwolves in a manner that appeals to us. They are both the protectors of Eddard's children and the avatars of the basic instincts of the Starks. They are a tangible link to the primal element of man... and they're also iconic animals many cultures. I'm glad you didn't take Grey Wind's death lightly. I'm glad you have a place in your heart for nature. But the last two words of yours, that I've quoted, bother me.

Even more.

I'm not trying to single you out here. I think this is a real comment on society. Have we become so accustomed to violence against humans that it takes the death of a wolf to move us? We expect HBO to give us sex... and death... and homosexual sex... and murder... and adultery... and gore... and then snuff sex... Why do they keep pushing the envelope? Is it because they are evil or is it because we like it?

Hey, I'm guilty as charged. I've read all the books. I've seen all the episodes. Birthing a demon and stabbing a fetus are the two worst things I believe I've ever watched. I don't watch horror movies. Tremors and Tucker and Dale Versus Evil are as much horror as I can stand.

I do not advocate violence against animals. But how can that move us more than the death of a mother and fetus? Talisa had more lines of dialogue. She showed us more aspects of her personality. She was attractive, likable, and gracious. She was a healer.

Ah, but from a storytelling point of view, there was a reason to it - look at the order of the deaths:

* Not-Jeyne's probable child
* Not-Jeyne
* Robb
* Catelyn

The impact of the deaths cascade up the chain, with each person seeing the one they love most die before they do: Not-Jeyne sees her probable child die; Robb sees Not-Jeyne die; Catelyn sees Robb die; Catelyn dies.

Sure, killing Not-Jeyne outright wouldn't break the chain (only forge it with fewer links), but by killing her probable child, Jeyne goes through the ultimate heartbreak before dying, adding extra weight.

Another aspect of the chain of deaths is that it all compounds on Catelyn, breaking her completely. She said, a few episodes back, that she felt responsible for the ruin raining down on House Stark (she prayed to the gods to keep Jon Snow from dying from illness as a boy, promising to treat him like her own son... but after he survived, she just couldn't go through with it). Her other children, in her mind, are dead or as good as dead, and now she has seen another woman lose a possible child (Catelyn is big on children), seen her son lose his wife, then seen (what she thinks is) her last remaining free child die. The sum total of the deaths, with the fact that each person's world crumbles before they die, is far more powerful than, say, just Robb getting killed.

Stabbing Not-Jeyne through the heart wouldn't have ruined the scene, that much is certain, but by stabbing her through the stomach and leaving her to bleed out knowing her probable child is dead adds that extra layer of impact, and also serves to shock the book readers - we knew the Red Wedding was coming, but even with our knowledge we didn't expect such brutality.

I completely agree with the last sentence. I did not expect it. Besides the sheer brutality, stabbing Talisa tells us the child is dead. There won't be any rumors from Stark loyalists of Robb's son running around.

 

[Brian G Turner]

And the third time... it is horrific.

The nature of TV meant that Robb effectively became a POV character the TV audience could closely follow. In the books he was a distant character, only seen via other people, not least Catelyn. IMO that makes the Red Wedding on TV potentially much more powerful. And you're right, it is horrific! Definitely more emotive to me than reading that sequence.

 

[Boaz]

Reading about the Red Wedding, you are able to stop reading and think, "I'm reading it wrong. I must be daydreaming. Okay, go back to the top of the page and start again." But when watching it, you cannot find the remote fast enough... and even if you close your eyes you can still hear it...

It's different than a movie... a movie is only two hours... but you're watching the show for two and half years... you've talked about it at work, your spouse is now hooked, you reconnected with a high school friend on Facebook and found out that you both are big fans... you're emotionally invested over years, not two hours...

Just search on youtube for fan reactions to 1.9 Baelor, 3.9 The Rains of Castamere, or 4.8 The Mountain and the Viper.