What SF to recommend to non-genre readers?

[Kissmequick]

There's no reason not to recommend female authors.

Indeed, and yet the original list has no women on it....

I think Ian was just trying to highlight an, probably unconscious, bias. By trying to deflect the question (onto black and gay authors) you weren't answering the question, you were derailing it so as not to answer it. Or so it looked, anyway. It's a classic tactic, though I grant you may have done it unaware that it is such.

 

[Fried Egg]

Indeed, and yet the original list has no women on it....

There was no reason for others to suggest books by women authors. My reason I have made plain already. The five books I listed were the best (from what I have read) that satisfied my criteria. If I had bumped up books by women authors just to make up the numbers, I would have been being dishonest.

I think Ian was just trying to highlight an, probably unconscious, bias. By trying to deflect the question (onto black and gay authors) you weren't answering the question, you were derailing it so as not to answer it. Or so it looked, anyway. It's a classic tactic, though I grant you may have done it unaware that it is such.

I did answer his question, and then raised my own question.

 

[iansales]

Not at all. I was responding to Ian's post that lambasted the recommendations so far for not including many women authors. When I asked Ian if we should likewise lambast them for not including gay or black authors he said that would be derailing. I only meant that it was no more derailing than picking us up for the lack of female authors.

I was only trying to point out that it's long past time we shouldn't be producing lists of male-only sf writers. If it came across as "lambasting", I apologise.

 

[Kissmequick]

I did answer his question, and then raised my own question.

Did you? My mistake, you did after a fashion, after the black/gay bit (which is, as I say, a classic bit of derailment, though as noted you may not have intended it as such).

Then again it's turning into one of those days where I need more tea...

 

[Gordian Knot]

With the "logic" used by the writer of this article, we should bin all the high points of classic literature if we were making a list of that field. That Shakespeare was SUCH a hack!

 

[J-Sun]

I didn't read the article (from what you say it sounds like Homer sucked, too), but I just liked Fried Egg's revised question, so tried to contribute. For those whose ideological impulses impair their reading abilities, I would point out that the question was (paraphrase) "what older SF makes a good gateway"? I would be interested in people creating lists of the top classical composers and the world's greatest pre-20th century generals and, oh, say, a list of great presidents. How many women are going to be on them? Is this going to be sexist and biased? No, it's going to be a matter of fact. You do not retroactively correct anything by lying about or attacking the greatness of the past. For whatever reason, women in the past have had less presence in certain fields.

Historically speaking: tough.

People can take all the measures they want to promulgate their ideology in the present and future and they can even say, hey, that Clara Schumann wasn't bad. But to enforce a "balance" that never existed is just deceitful and destructive.

There have always been women in SF (some would argue the first example was by one) but no list with any sense is going to be numerically balanced. The best it can be is "balanced" by percentage and, on some short lists with certain specific requirements, no women will occur at all. On basically all classic SF lists, women will be a minority. Again, tough.

In terms of gateways, my own list had Le Guin - it never occurred to me, "I gotta have a woman on here" - she simply fit. I could have added others had that been the agenda but there simply aren't that many and those that are didn't fit. It'd basically be a form of sexism if I had gone out of my way to include more - "here, little lady, let me help you up, since you can't do it yourself". Except, as I say, more importantly, it would have been false to the historical reality and critically bankrupt.

But, whatever the semantics of "derailing", this thread is totally off-topic. I trust we all can agree on the semantics of that.

 

[Bick]

Well said, J-Sun!

 

[Kissmequick]

Thing is there were a fair few older classic SF female writers. They weren't non existent, or invisible or not writing good stuff.

Mary Shelley pretty much invented the genre for starters...and there's been several mentioned already in thread.

So why not include some? Because historically speaking, tough, there were female writers, no matter how much (some)the male writers hated it. It's just a matter of fact.

No one is saying you have to have a percentage, or numerically balance it out equally -- it's just that lists like these have a strong tendency to ignore ALL the female writers, and wouldn't it be nice if we took the time to make it not happen again? Because some seriously great SF was being written by these women, and it often got ignored then. That doesn't mean it should be ignored now too, or that saying 'Hey, how about we think about this? Wouldn't that be cool?' is anything other than what it sounds like

But, whatever the semantics of "derailing", this thread is totally off-topic. I trust we all can agree on the semantics of that.

Threads evolve. Stuff happens. Nothing is fixed, all is mutable.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

So, watch my neck be stuck out and slaughtered...

The original poster asked which sf books they'd recommend for non genre readers and came up with a list. If asked the same question, I don't think about the sex of the author, I think how appropriate the story is for the question asked. I'm sure if someone had come up with an all-woman list no one would have lighted on it as invalid provided it was well thought out.
I'm all for equality, but I don't think this is the way to go about it- they were valid choices and, asked the same question, author sex would not have been my deciding criteria. Nor should it be; it wasn't the question.

 

[Bick]

No one is saying you have to have a percentage, or numerically balance it out equally

That seems to be what Ian suggested we do:

For every book written by a man you think of, think of one written by a woman.

Your next point looks very reasonable and measured :

it's just that lists like these have a strong tendency to ignore ALL the female writers, and wouldn't it be nice if we took the time to make it not happen again?

However, I can only recommend what I've read and enjoyed. It's not a case of taking "the time to make it not happen", as it has nothing to do with exercising consideration, or care, or enlightenment or anything else that might sweep away the sexism Ian implies, its simply because my short list of personal picks for 'gateway' books are what I genuinely recommend. I recently bought some Cherryh, and I expect to enjoy it. If I do, and this comes up again, it may make the list. But it wont be because she is a woman - I fundamentally disagree with Ian's comments on gender-blindness.

 

[J-Sun]

There have always been women in SF (some would argue the first example was by one)
...
In terms of gateways, my own list had Le Guin - it never occurred to me, "I gotta have a woman on here" - she simply fit. I could have added others had that been the agenda but there simply aren't that many and those that are didn't fit.

Thing is there were a fair few older classic SF female writers. They weren't non existent, or invisible or not writing good stuff.

Mary Shelley pretty much invented the genre for starters...and there's been several mentioned already in thread.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. What in the snippet quoted from you is not already in the snippet quoted from me? Shelley, check. Some women, check. "Didn't fit" is not to say "non existent, or invisible or not writing good stuff", check.

Threads evolve. Stuff happens. Nothing is fixed, all is mutable.

This isn't evolution, it's a discontinuity - replacing one thread (good older gateway SF) with another (female SF writer quota enforcement). Yes, stuff does happen and this is why we can start new threads. If people want to be on topic and enforce gender quotas then they should simply name some fitting books by female authors. Criticizing others for not doing so does your cause no favors at all. I suspect most people read in a genderless fashion and implying or stating that they are being sexist is only going to annoy them. Those who do read in a sexist fashion aren't not going to be swayed by aromas of political correctness, either. All genders/colors/creeds should write books, all genders/colors/creeds should read books, everyone should recommend who they want, and let the gender/color/creed chips fall where they may. Everything else is just political grandstanding and not a genuine effort to promote female authors by simply bringing them to people's attention in the same way you would a good book written by a male. Is it good because it's by a female? No? Then why focus on gender as the principle of recommending it. Just recommend it.

 

[j d worthington]

I was only trying to point out that it's long past time we shouldn't be producing lists of male-only sf writers. If it came across as "lambasting", I apologise.

Not meaning to be too harsh, Ian, but that is exactly the way you came across (to me, at least). You make a fair point, certainly, but I think you overemphasize. An honest list must reflect the reading of the person making the post, not an ideal balanced list.

Speaking for myself, my lack of more women writers is a reflection of: a) having grown up at a time when there were certainly less women writing in the field who were getting recognition (though it was, thankfully, changing) and therefore most of my exposure to the older sf was to that by men; and b) most of the women writers of speculative fiction (whether hard sf or otherwise) I particularly like would not necessarily make good "gateway" suggestions for introducing new readers to the genre because... well, frankly, because no few of them are much more challenging. They'd make excellent suggestions for someone once they get used to the idea that sf is a broader genre than technical fiction, space travel, and robots, or once they learn that sf often is genuinely adult literature rather than just "that Buck Rogers adventure stuff"; writers such as C. J. Cherryh, Joanna Russ, Pamela Z. Zoline, Nancy Kress, Kate Wilhelm, Josephine Saxton, Joan Slonczewski, Sherri S. Tepper, etc., etc., etc., are all ones I would have no problems recommending once someone has made that transition; but first there's the general conception of sf to overcome, and something which eases them into that process while still introducing some challenges to those preconceptions (something Le Guin is particularly good at) has a lot to do with dictating my own choices for the list....

 

[iansales]

That seems to be what Ian suggested we do:

No, it wasn't. I pointed out the lists were all male and expressed my disappointment that once again women's contribution to the genre had been ignored.

However, I can only recommend what I've read and enjoyed.

That's easy to fix: start reading more sf by women. If you're stuck for titles to try, have a look at SF Mistressworks. There's plenty of books reviewed there for you to choose from, and many of them are really good.

Not meaning to be too harsh, Ian, but that is exactly the way you came across (to me, at least). You make a fair point, certainly, but I think you overemphasize.

I have to over-emphasize because otherwise everyone goes, la la la la I am gender-blind I can't hear you why should it matter that I only read men. As indeed several people in this thread have done.

Speaking for myself, my lack of more women writers is a reflection of: a) having grown up at a time when there were certainly less women writing in the field who were getting recognition (though it was, thankfully, changing) and therefore most of my exposure to the older sf was to that by men; and b) most of the women writers of speculative fiction (whether hard sf or otherwise) I particularly like would not necessarily make good "gateway" suggestions for introducing new readers to the genre because... well, frankly, because no few of them are much more challenging. They'd make excellent suggestions for someone once they get used to the idea that sf is a broader genre than technical fiction, space travel, and robots, or once they learn that sf often is genuinely adult literature rather than just "that Buck Rogers adventure stuff"; writers such as C. J. Cherryh, Joanna Russ, Pamela Z. Zoline, Nancy Kress, Kate Wilhelm, Josephine Saxton, Joan Slonczewski, Sherri S. Tepper, etc., etc., etc., are all ones I would have no problems recommending once someone has made that transition; but first there's the general conception of sf to overcome, and something which eases them into that process while still introducing some challenges to those preconceptions (something Le Guin is particularly good at) has a lot to do with dictating my own choices for the list....

Obviously, I disagree that books by women make poor gateway books and see no reason why, say, Phyllis Gotlieb's Sunburst (1964) should not do the trick just as well as any other sf novel of the 1960s (assuming you were determined to pick one from that decade).

On a more general note (ie, not specifically in reply to JD): bear in mind that Margaret St Clair had 80 stories published during the 1950s alone, all in major titles such as F&SF, Galaxy and Startling Stories. And yet now she's almost forgotten, unlike many of her male contemporaries. Women have been writing sf since the genre's beginnings, they've just been written out of the genre's history, and all-male lists perpetuate that. So-called "gender-blindness" fails to address that and, in fact, only makes it worse - because you're relying on subconscious biases instead of making them conscious and working to counteract them.

 

[iansales]

Those who do read in a sexist fashion aren't not going to be swayed by aromas of political correctness, either. All genders/colors/creeds should write books, all genders/colors/creeds should read books, everyone should recommend who they want, and let the gender/color/creed chips fall where they may. Everything else is just political grandstanding and not a genuine effort to promote female authors by simply bringing them to people's attention in the same way you would a good book written by a male. Is it good because it's by a female? No? Then why focus on gender as the principle of recommending it. Just recommend it.

You said "political correctness". Your argument is invalid.

 

[Fried Egg]

I just want to say that I readily admit that I could do with reading many more classic SF by women writers. I've read a few that I really enjoyed but I know there are many more I have yet to try.

So lets hear some more suggestions? What good gateway classic SF by female authors is there out there that we need to know about? Kissmequick and Ian have made it quite clear they want to see more suggestions by female authors but, so far, haven't provided any themselves. Ian, I know you've got the SF Mistressworks list but perhaps you could pick out some of those (from the classic era) that you think would make good gateway SF? Are there any that are still fresh and relevant, that would appeal to the modern reader?

 

[iansales]

So lets hear some more suggestions? What good gateway classic SF by female authors is there out there that we need to know about? Kissmequick and Ian have made it quite clear they want to see more suggestions by female authors but, so far, haven't provided any themselves. Ian, I know you've got the SF Mistressworks list but perhaps you could pick out some of those (from the classic era) that you think would make good gateway SF? Are there any that are still fresh and relevant, that would appeal to the modern reader?

Um, well, "fresh and relevant"... If you're allowed to pick Foundation, then I'm allowed to pick ones that aren't exactly fresh or relevant But, avoiding the obvious choices like Le Guin or Russ, here goes:

The three Women of Wonder anthologies, edited by Pamela Sargent (1975 - 1978)
Islands, Marta Randall (1976)
The Wanderground, Sally Miller Gearhart (1979)
The Sword of Rhiannon, Leigh Brackett (1953)
Memoirs of a Spacewoman, Naomi Mitchison (1962)
Sunburst, Phyllis Gotlieb (1964)
The Book of Morgaine, CJ Cherryh (1976 - 1979)
Any random Andre Norton book
Judgement Night, CL Moore (1952)

... I'll see if I can think of any more.

 

[j d worthington]

Obviously, I disagree that books by women make poor gateway books and see no reason why, say, Phyllis Gotlieb's Sunburst (1964) should not do the trick just as well as any other sf novel of the 1960s (assuming you were determined to pick one from that decade).

On a more general note (ie, not specifically in reply to JD): bear in mind that Margaret St Clair had 80 stories published during the 1950s alone, all in major titles such as F&SF, Galaxy and Startling Stories. And yet now she's almost forgotten, unlike many of her male contemporaries. Women have been writing sf since the genre's beginnings, they've just been written out of the genre's history, and all-male lists perpetuate that. So-called "gender-blindness" fails to address that and, in fact, only makes it worse - because you're relying on subconscious biases instead of making them conscious and working to counteract them.

You make some good points, Ian; and, while I would still argue that, from my own reading, I have encountered fewer "gateway" books by women than men, I like your suggestions here and below. Certainly, I think it is darn near a crime that Margaret St. Clair has been forgotten, and I would also agree that there is a strong tendency still (or perhaps that should be again, as it seemed to be fading for a few decades) to see sf as largely a "men's preserve", when we have had a considerable number of fine women writers as well.

As for the suggestions you made, I would heartily second Sargent's three Women of Wonder anthologies (which, unless memory deceives me, have been collected together into a single tpb several years ago). I also should have mentioned (and, to use your phrase, this is an obvious choice) is James Tiptree, Jr., surely one of the truly original voices out there, in my earlier list....

I will admit that I didn't list, say, Andre Norton because I've read very little of her sf, though I've read a fair amount of her fantasy; hence didn't feel qualified to say anything about her work. However, from my understanding, much of her work in the field would certainly apply at least as well as, say, Heinlein's. As for the Brackett, Cherryh, and (especially from my point of view, considering how highly I consider her work) Moore, I think yes, I deserve something of a rebuke for not mentioning those in this context, as they would certainly qualify. (For that matter, just about anything Moore had a hand in is worth looking into; and Brackett, though not among my favorites, produced a lot of fine sf during the "classic" period....)

 

[clovis-man]

Re Andre Norton: Good starting points might be The Last Planet (Star Rangers) or the combination of Sargasso of Space and Plague Ship (available as an omnibus under the title Solar Queen). Works from the 1950s that still capture the wonder of such tales when space travel was a mysterious adventure.

 

[iansales]

As for the suggestions you made, I would heartily second Sargent's three Women of Wonder anthologies (which, unless memory deceives me, have been collected together into a single tpb several years ago). I also should have mentioned (and, to use your phrase, this is an obvious choice) is James Tiptree, Jr., surely one of the truly original voices out there, in my earlier list....

The two Women of Wonder anthologies published in 1995, Women of Wonder: The Contemporary Years and Women of Wonder: The Classic Years, have completely different tables of contents to the original three anthologies, Women of Wonder, More Women of Wonder and The New Women of Wonder. Other similar anthologies include Millennial Women (1978) - which was published in the UK as The Eye of the Heron as if it were a Le Guin collection - Aurora: Beyond Equality (1976) and more recently Daughters of Earth (2006).

 

[Gordian Knot]

Some of the favorites from my early years. It would seem that as a child I read as many female authors as male.

In no particular order:

Isaac Asimov. Foundation Series. Amongst many others.
Thomas Burnett Swan. Fantasy books featuring creatures from classical mythology.
J.R.R. Tolkien. The Hobbit. (Which I believe has held up better than TLotRs).
Frank Herbert. Dune.
Richard Adams. Watership Down.


Andre Norton. Any of the Witchworld series.
Zenna Henderson. The People No Different Flesh.
C.J. Cherryh. Hunter of Worlds.
Anne McCaffrey. The Dragon Rider series.
Ursula K. Le Guin. The Earthsea series.