Heroic Fantasy vs Epic Fantasy

Also, isn't Name of the Wind epic fantasy? I'd certainly put it as so. And there's only room for one protagonist in the Kvothe show. :D

If Name of the Wind - the story of one guy going to magician college - is epic, then I'm having a tough time thinking of fantasy that doesn't qualify as epic.
 
If Name of the Wind - the story of one guy going to magician college - is epic, then I'm having a tough time thinking of fantasy that doesn't qualify as epic.

How is it not epic? Sure, he goes to magician college. He also travels a wider world in a trope, goes to a far-flung kingdom, visits a distant warrior people, visits a related, close faerie land.... Throughout there are indications of a wide world. At least five cities are visited to date (in detail), four cultures viewed (with more intimated), a wider ranging political arena alluded to. Just because it's one point of view, mostly, with a central viewpoint, does this preclude epic?
 
Just because it's one point of view, mostly, with a central viewpoint, does this preclude epic?

I would suggest so - the story of someone who travels a lot is usually a travelogue. Only through multiple protagonists can we really see that world for what it is. And the length of a journey is perhaps less important than the struggle to complete it, so any definition of "epic" would end up fuzzy.

I'm just thinking aloud on a way to define the subgenre - most stories considered epic qualify, but there are more modern ones that are described as "epic" by their publishers, but in structure may be much closer to YA fiction.
 
I'm just thinking aloud on a way to define the subgenre - most stories considered epic qualify, but there are more modern ones that are described as "epic" by their publishers, but in structure may be much closer to YA fiction.

In marketing terms, it seems 'epic' is attached to any book that has a lot of pages or is part of a series.
 
And the name "George R R Martin" is sneaked in everywhere... :D

The pottery stalls at the Greenhamm Market have suffered under the neglect and mismanagement of Snarkfell for over a decade. Now, Gladfan, prophesied to be the greatest potter since the his father shaped the great Urn of the Shaper, must restore his family honour in the market. It will take all Gladfan's glazing skills, and sharp-eyed tracking of his ledgers, to seize and hold the coveted corner stall at Greenhamm.

- An epic fantasy in the vein of A Song of Ice and Fire - LOCUST MAGAZINE

- George RR Martin's legions of fans should run, not walk, to get their hands on this mind-shattering epic. - FANTIME
 
I'm just thinking aloud on a way to define the subgenre - most stories considered epic qualify, but there are more modern ones that are described as "epic" by their publishers, but in structure may be much closer to YA fiction.

I think the key is that writing is not singular. You get a few, and they are typically a few, books/series which fit a sub-genre perfectly. Sometimes they are even the ones that start a specific sub-genre off or promote it into more active use.

The thing is most books are not singular; they straddle multiple sub-genres at the same time. Heck some even straddle genres themselves (Pern would, in my view, straddle both Sci-fi and Fantasy - since its got a sci-fi base but many of the stories take place in what most would consider a very fantasy setting).

Epic to heroic as I would define them is:
Heroic - focuses upon a singular hero or very small group of heroes. Typically told from a single viewpoint or narration primarily following the single hero/group. It would be a good book length, but nothing too extreme and a really classic example might have each adventure fitting into a single book (rather than a long series - though there might be overarching story lines).
DnD type adventures stories would oft class as heroic - but then again many would also class them as very DnD like.

Epic- typically multiple points of view and might not even have a single "leading" character. It would also expect to be long in terms of pages and expected, but not required, to use more extensive description and scene setting


I think its easy to get too bogged down in the specifics and a lot of the time many personal opinions can sometimes (overtly or subconsciously) be a case of having a sub-genre a person likes and thus trying to promote as many books into that sub-genre as they can (whilst sometimes at the same time excluding those they dislike).
Publishers have their own ideas, but its my view they will use the terms in a very loose manner - typically whatever is "Hot" selling will be promoted through their choices, but also get the label slapped on it too. As we see today with GRRM promoting EPIC fantasy we will see more epic tales and some that we could argue are not quite "epic" getting the title from the publishers.


I'd also argue that most people only pay a light interest in sub-genres. Mostly they use it just to find similar works; its a filter - a simple way to casually filter the vast number of published books into something more manageable and similar. I say rough because one epic tale to another can be vastly different.
 
So...so far I only have the following authors as writing truly epic fantasy with multiple protagonist POVs:

George R R Martin
Robert Jordan
Katherine Kerr
Raymond E Feist
David Eddings
Steven Erikson
Joe Abercrombie
Weiss & Hickman
Robin Hobb
Brandon Sanderson possibly as well - Mistborn wasn't, but Way of Kings may be.
 
Ah, I thought that was a list you'd gathered from various sources; I didn't realise it was just your personal reading. (I thought it was a bit short!)

Others here have recommended Wurts, and her main series sounded the kind of thing I might enjoy, but I couldn't get into the first book.
 
James Stoddard The High House and its Sequel The False House Excellent stuff. (y)
 
Melanie Rawn's Sun Runner/Dragon Prince series - multiple character POV involving magic, dragons, and quests. They will also would serve as excellent door stops. (Not that mine do.)
Kate Elliott's Cross Roads ( and quite likely all her others) are 'map at the beginning' quest driven, spider squishing heavy, Multi-pov.

It's been a while since I looked at L. E Modesitt - but size wise his work fits the bill.
 
I'd suggest that to qualify as an epic, a book needs at least two of the following qualities:
  • Large cast of POV characters.
  • Takes place over a long period of time - many years, or even generations.
  • Lots and lots of pages.
 
My favorite quest books are the David Eddings Belgarath the sorceror series.
Definately Sword and Sorcery. Its right on the box.
 
So...so far I only have the following authors as writing truly epic fantasy with multiple protagonist POVs:

George R R Martin
Robert Jordan
Katherine Kerr
Raymond E Feist
David Eddings
Steven Erikson
Joe Abercrombie
Weiss & Hickman
Robin Hobb
Brandon Sanderson possibly as well - Mistborn wasn't, but Way of Kings may be.

Most fantasy stories with multiple POV characters are focused on a single protagonist. Additional POVs are provided by their love interest, best friend, antagonist, and mentor. In other words, the other POV characters exist only by their relationship to that protagonist.

Most of the fantasy novels with multiple POVs that I've read over the past few years fall into that pattern. And I cannot count one man's story as "epic".

I'm removing Feist, Kerr, Hobb, and Sanderson from the list because their characters fall into that pattern - certainly in the books I've read. Jordan wrote Eye of the World in the same manner, though I'd have to read more in the series to see if he qualifies (I've been presuming so far that the story isn't always focused on Rand and everyone defined by their relationship to him). Eddings is still a hole in my reading list, but I struggle to find the enthusiasm to add it.

I'm struggling to get through Gwynne's Malice, but like Jordan, that seems focused in the main on a single heroic character in the form of Corban.

That means the only authors I've read who have written multiple independent protagonists from the first book in a series are:

George R R Martin
Steven Erikson
Joe Abercrombie
Weiss & Hickman

I'm struggling to find more.
 

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