Heroic Fantasy vs Epic Fantasy

[MWagner]

I'm struggling to get through Gwynne's Malice, but like Jordan, that seems focused in the main on a single heroic character in the form of Corban.

I had it in my hands at the book store this weekend. How is it?

 

[Brian G Turner]

I had it in my hands at the book store this weekend. How is it?

There are a couple of threads on it here:
John Gwynne - The Faithful and the Fallen series
John Gwynne, Malice, may contain spoilers

 

[aThenian]

My feeling is:

Epic - ambitious in scope, we're talking armies rather than warriors
Heroic - mainly one or two person clumping others with sword (or similar)

LOTR - maybe would be heroic if it was more focussed on Aragorn, or if Sam and Frodo were better fighters?

I can see it meets your criteria but for some reason the Belgariad doesn't feel like an epic to me. Maybe because it often has a kind of homely style?

I'd agree that an epic would be written in multiple POV.

 

[Wraith01]

To me the distinction has always been clear:

Heroic Fantasy - deals with the main protagonist on an quest/adventure of some sort (world altering or not) like: "The Hobbit"
Epic Fantasy - deals with the struggles of many protagonist, in different places, on a potentially world changing/ending scenario: "Lord of the Rings"

So it would be a combination of point of view, what is at stake and scope.
But even though epic fantasy tends to run through multiple books it isn't a requirement ("Lord of the Rings" was intended as one book) and heroic fantasy isn't limited to one and done, it can be serialized or continued (again like "Lord of the Rings" is a sequel to "The Hobbit").

(It should be considered a given that these events must take place in a High Fantasy setting.)

 

[BAYLOR]

To me the distinction has always been clear:

Heroic Fantasy - deals with the main protagonist on an quest/adventure of some sort (world altering or not) like: "The Hobbit"
Epic Fantasy - deals with the struggles of many protagonist, in different places, on a potentially world changing/ending scenario: "Lord of the Rings"

So it would be a combination of point of view, what is at stake and scope.
But even though epic fantasy tends to run through multiple books it isn't a requirement ("Lord of the Rings" was intended as one book) and heroic fantasy isn't limited to one and done, it can be serialized or continued (again like "Lord of the Rings" is a sequel to "The Hobbit").

(It should be considered a given that these events must take place in a High Fantasy setting.)

How would you categorize a books like

Islandia by Austin Tappen Wright

The Book of the Three Dragons by Kenneth Morris

Vathek by William Beckford

 

[Brian G Turner]

To me the distinction has always been clear:

I quite agree - and welcome to the chrons forums.

 

[Wraith01]

How would you categorize a books like

Islandia by Austin Tappen Wright

The Book of the Three Dragons by Kenneth Morris

Vathek by William Beckford

I had never heard of them, much less read them.
After a quick google search they seam interesting, yet don't seam to fall in either Epic Fantasy nor Heroic Fantasy.
I'll add them to my bucket list.

 

[Wraith01]

I quite agree - and welcome to the chrons forums.

Thanks.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Is there really a distinction between Heroic and Epic Fantasy? Is it simply a matter of scope?

Just coming back to this, and the OED apparently defines "epic" as "grand in scale or lengthy and arduous".

Presumably they mean for the characters, not reader.

 

[Brian G Turner]

And to add something else: perhaps epic simply means dealing with big topics of human existence: war and mortality, and survival and adventure.

That's what my OU book on Homer's Iliad and Odyssey says anyway - but also points out that our modern definition of "epic" probably comes from them.

 

[Brian G Turner]

And another thing it mentions - "heroic" can mean denoting admirably courage, outstanding achievements, and worthy of emulation. Does that really apply to Gemmell's main characters, especially when they all tend to be flawed and morally grey?

Is it possible that being inherently good or bad is irrelevant as to whether someone is a "hero" or not, and that it actually implies someone able to act in ways that are somehow supernatural?

 

[Elckerlyc]

Is it possible that being inherently good or bad is irrelevant as to whether someone is a "hero" or not, and that it actually implies someone able to act in ways that are somehow supernatural?

If there is something as being inherently good or bad, neither of these 2 states (natural or nurtured) means someone is more likely or able to act heroically. I think a heroic act stems more from the occasion, the need for a heroic (more likely, desperate) action and the mentally condition at that particular time of the hero to be. But I believe people are grey, in the sense that no one is either good or bad. A heroic soldier beats his children at home. A coward runs into a burning house because is love is inside. The criminal takes care of his demented mother.
What makes a hero? Circumstances.

 

[BAYLOR]

If there is something as being inherently good or bad, neither of these 2 states (natural or nurtured) means someone is more likely or able to act heroically. I think a heroic act stems more from the occasion, the need for a heroic (more likely, desperate) action and the mentally condition at that particular time of the hero to be. But I believe people are grey, in the sense that no one is either good or bad. A heroic soldier beats his children at home. A coward runs into a burning house because is love is inside. The criminal takes care of his demented mother.
What makes a hero? Circumstances.

The accidental hero.

 

[Vince W]

Just coming back to this, and the OED apparently defines "epic" as "grand in scale or lengthy and arduous".

Presumably they mean for the characters, not reader.

Don't be so sure.

 

[Overread]

One thing that might muddy the waters is that a Heroic fantasy story might evolve into an Epic saga. The individual heroic adventures of a character like Conan might be considered an epic saga of adventures when viewed as a complete body of work. Other stories might evolve as the writers skill and direction changes. What might begin life as a few characters could evolve into a huge roster.

Though I think at their core these are simple terms that often don't tie themselves to very specific situations. Generalist concepts that work well within the highly varied creative world that is writing. Much like how we can all talk about elves and dwarves even though each individual story might have very different interpretations of them.

 

[Toby Frost]

I would argue that "heroic" relates to the tone of the story, while "epic" relates to its scope, so they could overlap completely, not at all or anywhere in between. Which probably doesn't make them very precise categories in which to market a novel.

 

[The Big Peat]

To me, Epic Fantasy is an easily recognisable sub-genre, and Heroic Fantasy is basically David Gemmell and nobody else.

And another thing it mentions - "heroic" can mean denoting admirably courage, outstanding achievements, and worthy of emulation. Does that really apply to Gemmell's main characters, especially when they all tend to be flawed and morally grey?

Is it possible that being inherently good or bad is irrelevant as to whether someone is a "hero" or not, and that it actually implies someone able to act in ways that are somehow supernatural?

It more than applies to Gemmell's characters. To echo another post - we're all flawed, even the best of us, and heroism is about being able to transcend those flaws for a moment to do something great and courageous. To make those achievements you talk about. There's no heroism inside one's comfort zone.

 

[Triceratops]

Okay, I get the distinction. Something similar: I believe portal fantasy is a genre by itself. That is where our present contemporary world enters or slips into an alternate world/universe--The Bridge to Terabithia, Stardust, Alice Through the Looking Glass, Narnia etc,. All of these have gates, doorways an egress, a portal into a foreign, unknown fantasy world. Not to be confused with Urban, which I think is the opposite--a strange world or different beings or entities invade our present day modern world. Portal is also called "low" fantasy. But I digress, the terms are also bandied about and I think "urban" pretty much hogs the spotlight or is the catchall.

 

[BAYLOR]

For me Heroic fantasy conjurs up Conan the Barbarian, Kull of Valusia , Bran Mak Morn Red Sonia , Jirel of Joiry, Morgan Frost Hair ,Kane the Mystic Swordsman , Fafherd and the Grey Mouser, Elak of Atlantis , The Eternal Champion, Felix and Gotrek. ect.

 

[Toby Frost]

Me too, pretty much. Definitely Conan and Fafhrd.