Bitter sweet ending? (spoilers)

[Yog-Sothoth]

I've been thinking about a comment GRRM made about his future book "A Dream of Spring" and how it would have a bitter sweet ending. What does he mean with that in your opinion and understanding of the books?

The only way for me to achieve a feeling of a bitter sweet ending is Little Finger on the throne. Not Danaerys, not Jon, not any of the rival houses. I have a clear favorite (Starks) but a victory for them would be a joyful ending not bitter sweet (in my opinion). A victory for the Lannisters (including Tyrion) would break from tradition of a happy ending for the good guys (to me the only house that falls under this are the Starks) not really bitter sweet.

Little Finger's humble beginnings and rise to the top is very interesting. I believe in A Feast for Crows we get to see more of his background and the place he grew up, which is a real backwater region of Westeros, yet look at him today.

He's also only one of two (Varys the other, Tywin being dead and all) that is really playing a "Game of Thrones" while the others are either out the game, out for revenge, opportunistic, dreamers, cowards, etc.

What would constitute a bitter sweet ending for you?

 

[Boaz]

Warning!!! Lots of spoilers from AGOT through ADWD!!!! Stop reading... it's for your own good.

Well, since the story has not been overly sweet so far... okay, it's been fairly bitter, I'd say that a bittersweet ending will feel pretty good.

Bittersweet, to me, means that the protagonists prevail, but at a great cost. But can the Starks even pay a higher cost?

GRRM has killed off a key male protagonist in every odd numbered book. Book One: Eddard. Book Three: Robb. Book Five: Jon. So which character will suffer the bitter taste of death and defeat in Book Seven?

I think Arya finally gets reunited with her pack. I think she'll meet at least two of the following people... Rickon, Jon, Sansa, and Stoneheart. She loves Jon. She might miss Rickon. She might feel protective of Rickon and Sansa. On the other hand, if she finds Sansa playing the game on Littlefinger's side, she might be tempted to kill her. And I think she might end up being the one to do Stoneheart. Whether she lives or dies at the end, I could not say. But if she lives, it won't be as any sort of traditional lady of Westeros.

Jon's story is bitter at the moment. And that's too bad because he just got interesting. His chapters have always been great, but not him. If he survives his wounds, he might still be hung for renouncing his vows. If he dies, he might come back as either Ghost or as Melisandre's creature. Neither is a pleasant prospect and neither will really help the NW.

Jaime may actually find his soul and his honor in ADOS. (That is if he's not dead in the first ten chapters of TWOW.) That would be sweet... but he can't live through the end of the Baratheon/Lannister dynasty. Of all the characters in the story, I guarantee that Jaime and Stannis will die.

If Cersei lives, that would be bitter.

Here's a list of my favorite characters...

Aemon Targaryen - Dead
Arya Stark - Orphaned, Captured numerous times, Exiled, but now doing so well in school that Mindy Macready/Hit Girl is going as Arya next Halloween
Barristan Freaking Selmy - Exiled
Bronn Blackwater - Knighted, Titled, Doing very well
Brynden Tully - Subject of intense manhunt
Dacey Mormont - Murdered
Drogo, son of Barbo - Assassinated
Edd Tollet - Promoted against his will
Jaime Lannister - Maimed, Captured for the third time
Jeor Mormont - Murdered
Jon Connington - Exiled, Terminally ill
Jon Umber - Maimed, Imprisoned
Jorah Mormont - Exiled for the second time, Enslaved (karma?)
Kevan Lannister - Assassinated
Petyr Baelish - Pwning everyone
Podrick Payne - Last seen swinging from a noose
Renly Baratheon - Assassinated
Sandor Clegane - Disfigured, Exiled, Robbed, Presumed dead
Tyrion Lannister - Disfigured, Exiled, Enslaved
Tywin Lannister - Murdered
Victarion Greyjoy - Rapidly becoming the Witch King or Darth Vader

Lots of bitter. Where's the sweet?

The only three, on my list, doing well are Littlefinger, Arya, and Bronn. None of them even blinks when faced with a problem that can be solved by bloodshed. Really, do any of them have any scruples?

 

[Needle]

Bittersweet? Oh the possibilities are huge!

You all know, Arya is my girl!! Till the end. (just FYI, I named my Beagle pup Arya, she hides in plain sight, is not afraid of anything, and constantly sticks her tongue out at me!)

I agree with Boaz that Arya will finally find her pack. To me this most likely means Nymeria and through her Stoneheart. She may indeed end up killing her, this is no longer really her mother after all.

I also believe that Jaime will regain his honor, at least to himself and possibly Brienne. He will not survive it however.

Bronn, how I love Bronn! Can he play a significant part in the story from here? Can he survive it? I don't know, but I would love to see it!

Cersei must die!

Tyrion? I believe he will get to live his childhood dream of riding a dragon. Bittersweet here could mean it signals his end.

Littlefinger cannot win! There is only bitter here for me, no sweet.

Sandor. Rescues Sansa from the clutches of Littlefinger, returns her to her proper place as the eldest Stark (and thus Queen in the North) but she still can't stand to look at him! Bitter, bittersweet.

 

[thatollie]

Bittersweet; Hmm, The Starks save the world, but die out . . . except Bran who lives out his days soulbound to a Weirwood. Jaime and Tyrion are awesome good guys but still go down in history as psycho kingslayers. We're down to so few characters that Dany gets loads of chapters.

but mostly, a bittersweet ending for me means we'll be relieved to be finishing the damn thing.

 

[Tywin]

Bittersweet?

How about we all get what we have said we wanted since the beginning? For the Starks to come out victorious.

... and the destruction of the Lannisters: Tommen, Myrcella, Jaime, and Tyrion.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Aye - I would be surprised if Tyrion doesn't die tragically. IMO that's my expectation of "bitter".

 

[Boaz]

I agree with Tywin and Brian. The Starks winning would be sweet, but Tyrion, the most popular character, dying would be bitter.

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

Nice replies, this forum should have a like button!

Is there a chance the Seven Kingdoms could emerge from their civil-war as a republic? Any crackpot theories out there? I would consider that a bittersweet ending, all that dynastic mayhem was for nothing when a Stark is elected president by the decimated and disgruntled masses of Westeros.

GRRM is American after all.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Bittersweet could mean oh so many things, and really it would be subjective. I think Martin has a pretty good idea as to which of his characters are universally loved and which are despised, but there is still some characters in the grey area, and I don't mean morally. Dany, for instance. Some love her, some hate her, so her becoming queen might be bitter to some, but sweet to others. However, Martin is clearly setting her up to be a sympathetic character who would be looked upon as a "good guy" so he would probably consider her victory to be all sweet, and he was the one who said Bittersweet to begin with.

Here is what I hope for. (sorta)

Dany and Jon meet and have a Baby before dying in a battle that destroys the white walkers and the wall. Dany and Jon's Baby is raised to be the King by his godfather, Tyrion, who acts as Hand of the King, ruling as King in all but name until little baby Rheagar (Jon and Dany's Baby) is old enough. (Bronn, Greyworm and Mance Rayder become members of the Kings Guard)

Aegon (who was just a pretender anyway) also Dies, as well as Sir Connington.

Cersei is killed by Jaime, who subsequently dies shortly after, possibly at the hand of Arya

All the Tyrells are wiped out by various Sand Snakes and the Dornish split from the seven Kingdoms, with Arienne as the Queen of Dorne.

Stannis dies of something unheroic (like a common Cold), leaving no natural Heir, and the army the he has amassed diverts to Rickon (whom is found by Davos) Since most of Stannis' army is northerners Anyway. Rickon becomes the King in the North and Davos is his hand. after a brief but bloody battle, King Rickon feeds Ramsey Bolton to Shaggy Dog (alive). The northerner's, led by King Rickon also play a big part in defending the north/the wall against the White Walkers.

Arya never truly finishes her training, but continues to strike names from her list and is in some small ways is instrumental in having Tyrion be able to take over the throne, though she doesn't know it

Bran fulfills his destiny to become a tree

Sansa fulfills her destiny to become a potted plant

Varys, Littlefinger, Crows Eye and Roose Bolton all live, because there will always be villians and scheming Bastards in the world.

and on a side note, Tormund Giantsbane turns out to be a long lost relative/******* of the Umbers.

 

[viZion]

I think a lot of people forget that Dany's goals are still an extension of Viserys'. I.e. she means to retake the Iron Throne by destroying the people who took it from the Targaryens. That includes pretty much all of the "good" guys in Seven Kingdoms! Why would she want to marry a Stark when the Starks were directly responsible for her current situation? Why would she want to hang out with a Lannister (Tyrion) when a Lannister murdered her father? Seems to me she has no reason to like any of the other major characters at all. Keep in mind, she's not privy to all of the information about those characters like we are. She could not care less about how cool Arya is or how Jaime has found redemption or how Jon is fighting the very creatures threatening to destroy the Kingdom she wants to reconquer.

I guess my point is that bittersweet could mean Dany wipes everyone out on her way to reclaiming the Iron Throne, including everyone's other favorite characters.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

That is a very valid point Viz, and you are absolutely correct that she has no reason to trust in Jon or Tyrion or anyone else, but she has shown to be forgiving. BFS is one of her most trusted advisors and he directly served and protected King Robert for years, and this is after he swore an oath to protect her father. I think she will be smart enough to at least use Tyrion and, in time, she may learn to trust and even respect him. Stranger things have happened.

As for Jon, if she learns, as we all expect, that Jon is actually her Nephew, that might soften her towards him.

If R+L=J that makes Jon half stark, but all Targaryan

 

[juleska]

I think a lot of people forget that Dany's goals are still an extension of Viserys'. I.e. she means to retake the Iron Throne by destroying the people who took it from the Targaryens. That includes pretty much all of the "good" guys in Seven Kingdoms! Why would she want to marry a Stark when the Starks were directly responsible for her current situation? Why would she want to hang out with a Lannister (Tyrion) when a Lannister murdered her father? Seems to me she has no reason to like any of the other major characters at all. Keep in mind, she's not privy to all of the information about those characters like we are. She could not care less about how cool Arya is or how Jaime has found redemption or how Jon is fighting the very creatures threatening to destroy the Kingdom she wants to reconquer.

I guess my point is that bittersweet could mean Dany wipes everyone out on her way to reclaiming the Iron Throne, including everyone's other favorite characters.

Very well said. I guess we'll find out if she ever really leaves Mereen.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Of course, there's always room for GRRM to change his mind. But IMO it's clear that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion are the three main characters of the story, but politically it's the union of Jon and Dany that's of the most importance. The Lannister reputation is in ruins and there's not much there to salvage - Tyrion is politically expendable, so he can be killed - perhaps taking Cersei down with him. But there's still hope that Tyrion can and will survive - just depends on how fixed GRRM is on those last chapters he's always imagined.

 

[The Imp]

When I think of bittersweet endings my first thought is The Gift of the Magi by O. Henry. Those who know the story will know what I mean. Those who don't should read it. It's a short story and is absolutely wonderful.

To me a bittersweet ending would be Jon and Daenerys marrying after winning the war against the others and uniting the Seven Kingdoms and then one of them dying tragically, perhaps by a vindictive Littlefinger, or maybe even more likely, as a result of wounds suffered during the final battle. The good guys will win but it will come at a price. Another possibility is someone having to be sacrificed to create Lightbringer. Maybe Daenerys has to sacrifice Jon or vice versa.

Or maybe Jon, in order to ensure the outcome of the final battle has to warg into the Great Other, but then his body dies and he is stuck there forever. All of those would be bitter sweet to me

 

[Narkalui]

I believe that Jon and Dany will marry as they will be in command of the largest power blocks in Westeros. They will actually like each other too. Then in the final battle, Jon will sacrifice Dany (he won't be happy with himself, or maybe he won't even see her death as an eventuality of his action) and we will end up a return to the Westerosi Septarchy, possibly with Aurane Waters crowning himself King of the Isles of The Narrow Sea (plus, maybe The Crown Lands).

 

[Young stormlord]

The Starks win (whatever that means at the moment. I think that Rickon will become the Lord Protector of the North, Bran would become greenseer and Sansa will become a queen of something, or maybe Lady Protector of the East), but Arya dies. Arya will sew all through winter, killing all sorts of enemies and making their happy end possible, but when spring thaw comes they'll find her frozen body with Needle in her hands (Not so important connections) . Jaime lives but ends up hurt and scarred worse, a ruin of a man, as a Lord Protector of the East. Tyrion also lives and finds Tysha, but can never return to Seven Kindgoms and ends up sleeping with his own daughter Lanna in Braavos by accident. Danny will become Queen and win the war.

For the rest, I cannot plan.

 

[Narkalui]

I like all your ideas Stormlord, except Rickon. I'm not saying you're wrong but I firmly believe that Rickon's story is a Shaggy Dog story, ie he is going to die.

Sorry.

I think that if the North is going to be ruled by anyone other than a legitimized Jon Stark it will be Brandon The Broken returning from the dead.

 

[Judderman]

Well, Sam will reveal a vital clue but him or Gilly will be killed, probably by Whitewalkers.
Bran will have success but will be stuck in a tree like the One Eyed Raven, while he dreams he can fly.
Jaimie will fall for Brienne and both will die in battle. Perhaps an angry Tormund will kill them!
I think the Red Priests/Priestesses will also be involved in further victory and sacrifice.
Dany will become ruler but her new love Jon amongst other supporters will also die. Dany will then clearly have a dark change in her personality in the end. Someone will be shown to be plotting against her as the story closes.

 

[Narkalui]

A thought just occurred: Jon Stark, King of The North (and King Beyond The Wall too? Or will that go to Tormond?), his Queen, after Dany dies, will be Val.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Actually, it just occurred to me - Jon + Dany ruling, with Tyrion tragically slain would be the predictable outcome.

Early in Game of Thrones - Jon's POV at the banquet thrown for King Robert - Tyrion casts a giant's shadow. Now, that could mean his death could cast a great shadow in the history of Westeros.

BUT - Jon and Dany are ice and fire and these cancel out. So what if both died, leaving only the third head of the dragon left alive - ie, Tyrion - to cast that giant shadow through the history of Westeros?

At first I thought I was just being contrary - but what have Dany and Jon actually learned about how to rule in all of the books to date? Pretty much nothing. Jon messed up with the Night's Watch by making unpopular decisions, and Dany messed up in Mereen by failing to make decisions. Neither has proven very fit to rule - certainly not over a divided society.

Only Tyrion has. He proved that at King's Landing.

Maybe all 3 will live - I'm sure that would be great. But if anyone has to survive, it has to be Tyrion - because he's the only person capable of ruling Westeros with any hope for maintaining peace.

Just thoughts.