Language matters! And don't you forget it.

[Dave]

Another annoyance is when people say 'yourself' or 'myself' as some quasi polite way of saying 'you' or 'me'.

They should say 'thou' or 'one' but we stopped saying that when I was still but a lad.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

And you cannot edit after a minute either, so I trnd to give peoplw leeway on minor typo miatakes.

Absolutely. I type most of my posts from mobile devices - my typo rate is shocking.

 

[Hex]

I'm kind of with SJAB here. I have made errors like its/ it's -- I may even have mixed up 'hear' and 'here' once or twice when I was tired and typing fast. I know the difference, honest, but sometimes my brain isn't watching what my fingers do. Normally I catch the errors when I edit, and the terrible thought of what might happen if I don't haunts my nights (and days) -- it just haunts me, okay?

But I'm not as nice as SJAB and, since the thread is ranty, I will admit that "At the end of the day" makes me want to scream and scream and scream. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be around so much any more.

EDIT: I think the thing with its/it's is it's a perfectly reasonable error to make:

the cat's bowl ==> it's bowl

You need to know it doesn't work like that.

(One that used to drive me wild in my youth, when I was teaching, was the confusion of "led" and "lead" -- but again, it makes sense because they sound the same, just one is the past of "to lead" and one is a metal. I have calmed down since then).

 

[Laeraneth]

The number of times I've written a glaring error like the various ones listed above (wrong tenses, typos, errant apostrophes, totally missing words, totally misplaced words, you name it) is scary.

Even more concerning is the number of times I've edited through my own work and not noticed them at all. I suppose it's inevitable that I sort of skim-read what I've written, because I know what is coming, but still... some of them REALLY stick out, and when I finally notice them on the tenth (or more) pass through, it just baffles me how I missed them before!

So I have lots of pet peeves about grammar and typos, but mostly I reserve my wrath for myself (Though things like Waterstone's talking about dropping the apostrophe is ridiculous and annoys at the mere idea!)

 

[Toby Frost]

I suppose there is one advantage to jargon: once you see it, you know what you’re getting. If I see the word “hegemony” in a piece of writing, for instance, I have a pretty good idea of what the discussion will be and what slant the writer will take, and I think that four out of five times I’d be right.

 

[Darth Angelus]

EDIT: I think the thing with its/it's is it's a perfectly reasonable error to make:

the cat's bowl ==> it's bowl

You need to know it doesn't work like that.

No, you don't. Sorry, but I disagree, and I think you don't. You just have to apply analytical skills and have a slight understanding of word classes.

Adding the "-'s" suffix is the way to make nouns possessive. It does not apply to pronouns. I will make a little list of the pronouns, what the possessive form would be named according to the noun pattern and finally what the possessive forms are actually called (and some have two versions, depending on how it is used in the sentence).

I - I's - my/mine
you - you's - your/yours
he - he's - his
she - she's - her/hers
it - it's - its
we - we's - our/ours
they - they's - their/theirs

I don't think I have seen people use the noun way to make pronouns possessive very much in any other case. As in...

I own a car ==> I's car

It is not a "perfectly reasonable" error to make, as other pronouns evidently have separate words for their possessive forms. Yes, it may be understandable that people just communicate, and instead of going into technical details about grammar like that, but reasoning has to do with analysis of something, and since writing "it's" instead of "its" represents a failure to make this fairly simple grammatical analysis, it is not reasonable.

 

[Hex]

Perhaps I should choose my words more carefully. I'll borrow one of yours, if I may: I think it's quite understandable that people make the error.

There is a logical basis to it. It may be incorrect, but there is reasoning behind it.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Sorry, DA, I can't agree. Possessive apostrophes are, notoriously, my weak spot in writing. It took me ages to figure them out and even now I get confused*. It might seem easy, because you've cracked the rules, but it's really not. And to say it's not reasonable to make such a common mistake is being very, very hard on writers. Perhaps it isn't reasonable if you have an excellent knowledge of grammar. For instance, to be perfectly frank, I don't understand your post about it at all. It's left me more confused, but to you, the rules are simple and logical. (Come and sit beside me as I write, please. )

Another instance - dialogue punctuation. I must have stayed awake when we were taught that in school, because I get it. I understand the rules, without major analysis as to how or why, I just know if it's right.

Loads of writers don't get those rules. To me they're logical - as the posessive rule is to you - I want to jump up and down and say "How hard is it?" But it is hard for lots of writers, because the rules are easy in some ways, but get hard when you mix them with a living scene.

*(So I get it's the man's jacket, but I get confused with it's the men's jackets because there's more than one man, so shouldn't it be mens' jackets. I'm lucky to have great betas who I email and say Why? to and they gently explain it to me. The same as I get the occasional email from people about dialogue punctuation.)

So, sorry, yes, absolutely a reasonable mistake to make - we're only human after all.

 

[Darth Angelus]

Perhaps I should choose my words more carefully. I'll borrow one of yours, if I may: I think it's quite understandable that people make the error.

There is a logical basis to it. It may be incorrect, but there is reasoning behind it.

All right, fair enough. Maybe I was nit picking a little bit.

Sorry, DA, I can't agree. Possessive apostrophes are, notoriously, my weak spot in writing. It took me ages to figure them out and even now I get confused*. It might seem easy, because you've cracked the rules, but it's really not. And to say it's not reasonable to make such a common mistake is being very, very hard on writers. Perhaps it isn't reasonable if you have an excellent knowledge of grammar. For instance, to be perfectly frank, I don't understand your post about it at all. It's left me more confused, but to you, the rules are simple and logical. (Come and sit beside me as I write, please. )

Another instance - dialogue punctuation. I must have stayed awake when we were taught that in school, because I get it. I understand the rules, without major analysis as to how or why, I just know if it's right.

Loads of writers don't get those rules. To me they're logical - as the posessive rule is to you - I want to jump up and down and say "How hard is it?" But it is hard for lots of writers, because the rules are easy in some ways, but get hard when you mix them with a living scene.

*(So I get it's the man's jacket, but I get confused with it's the men's jackets because there's more than one man, so shouldn't it be mens' jackets. I'm lucky to have great betas who I email and say Why? to and they gently explain it to me. The same as I get the occasional email from people about dialogue punctuation.)

So, sorry, yes, absolutely a reasonable mistake to make - we're only human after all.

Sorry if I came off as a bit hard on writers!

Possessive apostrophes apply to nouns and names, but never to pronouns.

Pronouns are words which are basically placeholders for nouns or names (I, you, he, she, it, we, they).

If you turn "it" possessive according to the noun pattern by adding apostrophe and "s", why should you turn "I" into "my" and not anologously call it "I's" (that is what you would get by adding apostrophe and "s" to "I"). People don't confuse "my" because it is dissimilar enough from "I" though.

But to clarify what I meant to say was that the existence of words like "my", "your", "his", "her", "our" and "their"* (instead of using apostrophy and "s" to make possessive pronouns, like "I's", "you's", "he's", "she's", "we's" and "they's", respectively), is proof that pronouns are made possessive in a different way than nouns.
It is reasonable to expect "it" to become possessive as its own word class (pronoun) does, by a separate word.

As for the "men's" example, the apostrophy and "s" is added to the end of whatever the noun would have been if it were not possessive, in this case "men". It is worth noting that the word "men" is irregular, because most nouns in English go plural by putting an "s" at the end (unlike the possessive form, it has no apostrophe when it is for plural). The regular plural form of "man" would have been "mans", but like I said, it is the irregular "men". Still, it is a noun, so a suffix of apostrophe and "s" is the way to turn it possessive.

"man"/"man's" - singular, not possessive/possessive
"men"/"men's" - plural, not possessive/possessive

Contrast to a noun with a regular plural form...

"car"/"car's" - singular, not possessive/possessive
"cars"/"cars's" - plural, not possessive/possessive


* and I dislike when it is confused with "there".

 

[Kylara]

One of my favourite ranty words is " a lot " or more commonly known as the "alot". (very well dealt with here Hyperbole and a Half: The Alot is Better Than You at Everything)

Allot is a word (give a portion). A lot is two words. Alot is not a word. Nope, not even close.

also "somethink" and "anythink" THERE IS NO K AT THE END. It is a g. A lovely soft g sound after an "in". Why oh why do people insist on sticking a k on the end That one is bound to get me to correct people, even if I have no idea who they are. It is an auto reflex. "somethink" "no, somethING"

 

[farntfar]

Springs.
The man's/men's works this way.
The apostrophe comes before the s to denote possesion, unless the s is already there for some other purpose, in which case it comes after.

Thus
I cleaned my cat's bowls, is not the same as I cleaned my cats' bowls.
And you can tell immediately that I have 2 (at least) cats, in the second example.

But when the S is only there to express possesion, it comes before.
Men is already plural, so the S in men's is only there to make it possesive, so it doesn't need to come after.

Note, that to be correct (if not a bit pedantic) we should say C.S.Lewis' Narnia books, not C.S.Lewis's Narnia books. But it's pretty well accepted these days to use either. (Someone will probably come back and tell me I'm wrong, because it's a name.)

Another way to look at it is that men is a collective and not a plural.
And as we know, collectives always behave differently.
That man's politeness is well known.
So is that man's!
When they get together they're a pair of yobs.

Last point. Just to show the collective element.
Do you have the same problem with spelling women's rights?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

No, I have it sussed now - thanks largely to Chrispy, Hex and Alc patiently explaining it to me - and do understand the plural/group thing now (mostly.) it's like percentages, I'm afraid, they can be explained to me any amount of times and I still go, eh? But thank you for this and Darth for the explanation - it's made it a little clearer again.

Re the hanging apostrophe - we've had this a lot. My understanding is it should be Lewis's but Strunk in the Elements of Style suggested leaving it off. So, mostly, as far as I know (and am happy to be shot down) American-English leaves it with the hanging apostrophe (Lewis') and UK English without (Lewis's). But each are equally valid.*

*catches Harebrain and Mouse from their dead faints of horror.

 

[farntfar]

Well I'm an Essex boy, so I don't think the English/American thing works.
I would say that using Lewis' is a bit archaic though.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Well I'm an Essex boy, so I don't think the English/American thing works.
I would say that using Lewis' is a bit archaic though.

Yes, just googled - Strunk advocates keeping 's, so not a UK/ US thing. The hanging apostrophe (Lewis') seems to be the more modern way, but as with anytime it comes up here the arguments are endless.

Either's fine, I think.

 

[farntfar]

I'm sure that Lewis himself would have been quite certain of which way it ought to be done. But I'm not sure which he would have chosen.

Maybe he and Tolkein used to argue about it down the pub.

 

[Darth Angelus]

Yes, just googled - Strunk advocates keeping 's, so not a UK/ US thing. The hanging apostrophe (Lewis') seems to be the more modern way, but as with anytime it comes up here the arguments are endless.

Either's fine, I think.

Yes, I am also under the impression that either is fine.


I wasn't trying to be clever earlier, by the way, especially since English is my second language, while it is the first language of most others here. I was just trying to point out observations about word classes, and that I have noticed differences in how nouns and pronouns treat possessive forms.

 

[farntfar]

Yes, I am also under the impression that either is fine.


I wasn't trying to be clever earlier, by the way, especially since English is my second language, while it is the first language of most others here. I was just trying to point out observations about word classes, and that I have noticed differences in how nouns and pronouns treat possessive forms.

You're explanation seemed perfectly sensible to me.
As for the second language question, my wife is French, but her command of English (and French, obviously) grammar is very much better than mine.

 

[Hex]

I wasn't trying to be clever earlier, by the way, especially since English is my second language, while it is the first language of most others here. I was just trying to point out observations about word classes, and that I have noticed differences in how nouns and pronouns treat possessive forms.

You can't help it if you're clever

It's an important point, though, that in the UK we don't tend to be taught grammar much unless we're learning a foreign language, and we don't do much of that. My knowledge of English grammar is woeful; I'm much better in Russian (or I used to be).

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Yes, I am also under the impression that either is fine.


I wasn't trying to be clever earlier, by the way, especially since English is my second language, while it is the first language of most others here. I was just trying to point out observations about word classes, and that I have noticed differences in how nouns and pronouns treat possessive forms.

Not at all, and sorry if I was snippy. I just think it's easy to assume everyone has an understanding. Like Hex, my knowledge of grammar isn't as good as it should be (I know what a sentence looks like, but I'd struggle to strip it down to the verb/noun/pronoun base). I have a bit more understanding now, which is great.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I can't believe how often I see people write 'loose' when they mean 'lose'. A published Chronite made this very mistake on these boards today (no I certainly wont name and shame). It makes me want to chuck the laptop out the window.

If I chucked my computer out the window for every typo I've committed, it would be a very costly business.

In the matter of apostrophes, I try to take the charitable view, and just assume that people are typing too quickly.