Former MFA teacher spills

I don't think you need to name people to demonstrate a point -- in fact, almost all published research keeps people anonymous. It's just he made a sweeping statement with no evidence it was based in anything. I don't think he can prove it, but equally I think he could demonstrate its likelihood more effectively.

But since we agree on disagreeing with that point in the article, there's not much point going round in circles about it.
 
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I have an MFA. I actually kind of agree with a lot of what he says. Not proud of that fact, but a lot of it rang true to me.

That said, this might apply more to literary fiction (some of it). I don't think that a person who reads "harder books" is going to turn out a brilliant, amazing writer. Some of us loathe Jame Joyce and we're doing just fine. :)
 
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It's just he made a sweeping statement with no evidence it was based in anything.

To me, that's the sticking point. His experience lead him to that conclusion. Not scientifically provable, no, but not a case of 'no evidence' either.

But since we agree on disagreeing with that point in the article, there's not much point going round in circles about it.

Sure.

I have an MFA. I actually kind of agree with a lot of what he says. Not proud of that fact, but a lot of it rang true to me.

That said, this might apply more to literary fiction (some of it). I don't think that a person who reads "harder books" is going to turn out a brilliant, amazing writer. Some of us loathe Jame Joyce and we're doing just fine. :)

Sorry to hear that.

I can't stand Joyce either.
 
this might apply more to literary fiction (some of it).

I think that's probably true, not least because a lot of literary fiction is talking about other books, or at least other art. And the linguistic skills needed for good genre fiction are more about clarity and pace than about putting words into mind-blowingly original combinations. That said ...

I don't think that a person who reads "harder books" is going to turn out a brilliant, amazing writer.

Probably not, but the single lines of prose that have stopped me in my reading tracks and made my jaw drop have tended to be from lit-fic. And I'd suggest that those who don't read "harder books" are less likely to turn into that kind of writer, i.e. a writer who emphasises language more than story. But then, it's very unlikely that's what they'd be aiming for anyway.
 
It would be interesting to know how many of those classes he taught and how many students, so we would have a better idea of the size of the sample he is using to make those generalizations. It would also be useful to know why most of those students were taking that course. How many genuinely loved to write, how many took the course because they thought it would be easy, and how many took the course because they had unrealistic dreams of getting rich by writing and liked the idea of being a writer much more than they liked actually writing. If most of his students fell into the last two groups, no wonder they were difficult and lazy.

But I agree that most of the things he is saying tend to be true ... most of the time. Probably the vast majority of the time. But that still leaves a lot of lives and people and situations where each of the things he says is not true.

A love of books early in life does make a big difference, and I think that most of the time it's a big advantage -- but people who discover the joys of reading later may, in some cases, appreciate books more because they notice things that readers who started earlier may not see as clearly, their perceptions blurred by familiarity. I agree that writers should have a love of books and words, but that can develop at any age. If someone tells me that they want to be a writer and I say, "What kind of books do you like to read, who are some of your favorite writers" and they say that they hardly read any fiction, then I don't think they are ready to start writing fiction yet, and I doubt they ever will be. But sometimes people's lives take an unexpected turn. The person who doesn't read fiction now may fall off a ladder and break several bones tomorrow, ending up in a hospital bed for several months, and having nothing much else to do and bored out of their minds, read a few books that someone dropped off ... and discover, by gum, that they love reading after all.

I don't know that it matters how early you get serious about your writing. A lot of people don't become what I would consider truly serious about their writing until later in life. I didn't start applying myself to my writing with any sort of dedication until I was 29. That doesn't mean that I never did any writing up to that point, and I find that a lot of people who say they didn't start writing until they were in their thirties or forties actually did write stories now and then as children. I know that I did, and I was always making up stories in my head, to entertain myself. I think that maybe the stories you tell yourself may be as important as the ones you write down. Those early stories don't have much to do with language (later they may, because I find myself editing even my daydreams these days, which makes them a lot less entertaining) but I think they can aid you in developing plots and perhaps characterization. There are a lot of things you can do to prepare yourself to become a writer, things that don't necessarily involve putting words on the screen or on paper.

I was a member of a writers group at a local bookstore, and I was amazed by the number of members who were writing about themselves, or (as they wanted people to know) fiction that was highly autobiographical. I don't know whether this was ego, therapy, or because they had been told so many times "Write what you know." Sometimes our own lives are the things we understand the least about, but I can see young people interpreting "write what you know" to mean "write your memoirs." I have met a lot of people who, on finding that I am a writer, blithely come out with, "I've had an interesting life, and I think it would make a great book if I ever have the time to write it." It's boring to hear that all the time, but I don't really think it's that different then any of the other daydreams people have and never really mean to go through with.

And I do believe that if there is something you desperately want to write, that is demanding that you write it, you will find the time. You will arrange your priorities so that you have the time. Nothing that happens will stop you from finding the time. BUT there are a lot of thing that can happen, there can be a lot of things that you have to do, that can dry up your creativity so that finding the time no longer becomes a big priority. Plugging away at writing when you feel no engagement with what you are doing, just because you've been told that that is what you have to do if you want to become a writer, when you are tired and you are stressed and there are some responsibilities you cannot shirk, that's a good way to take all the joy out of writing, and I don't think it gets you any further ahead.

On the other hand, if it's a school assignment, you have presumably set aside enough time to do the course work when you signed up, and having committed yourself to do the work you ought to do it -- or, if your life really has become that complicated that you can't do it, drop the course and stop wasting the teacher's time. I can see why a teacher would become so tired of hearing excuses from bright-eyed students (clearly not stressed by some major life crisis or dying of some almost immediately fatal disease), who really do have the time, but have simply not been interested enough to arrange their priorities, that he would become jaded and cynical and disinclined to accept any excuse as valid. It would be understandable, but he would still be wrong, because sometimes there are valid excuses.

It's also possible that he is not a very inspiring teacher. Some teachers are so brilliant at what they do, they can make students enthusiastic about reading assignments they would have otherwise hated. Some teachers are so boring they can make students hate a book they would otherwise love. I suspect the teacher who wrote the article is somewhere in between -- no better nor worse than the majority of writing teachers.
 
He said he taught low-res, which is far different than a traditional program in-person. For example, I never heard my classmates complain of having "no time to write." And we turned in writing for review 5-6 times per semester. This meant a short story every few weeks. And everyone knew it was rough, but that's what you signed up for and you got it done.

Also, as HareBrain states, commercial and genre fiction tends to be written in a more accessible voice, with stronger plot and faster pacing. But there is still beauty in the line found in those pieces--if written that way. Same as there is lit fic that is extremely accessible (Sherman Alexie, Junit Diaz, Denis Cunningham, just to name a few).
 
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Slightly wary of talking about myself on here, especially in the light of Teresa's brilliant post above, but I didn't start writing until I was almost 50, not quite a year ago.

I studied English in school up to age 16 and loved it but followed the sciences route to get into veterinary school. Having said that I devoured books from the age of 4 and by the time I started writing I'd read a huge range from classics of all ages through to niche genre. I love language: using it, understanding how it works, where words come from, etc.

I'm not claiming to be a good writer but in the novel writing class I study (1 hour a week for 10 weeks) I love every moment and throw myself into the home works with glee.

I have quite probably missed the point (old age...) but it doesn't seem to me that you need to have started writing seriously by age 16 to become good, you just need to love the language and read, read, read.

I have a young friend, in his early 20s, in the same class as me, who had hardly read anything (maybe 2 or 3 books total) when he started writing, but even now he is really very good. He is trying to remedy the shortfall by reading everything he can get his hands on and fairly getting through the books.

I think what I'm trying to say in my ramblings is that it's hard to make generalisations about something as subjective as "how good a writer someone is". The older lady who teaches the class I'm in is a truly inspiring teacher and the whole class responds to her, basking in her praise and trying our best to improve, for her as well as for ourselves.
 
Also, as a trainer of adults - I think a lot of this rings true not just for writing. Motivation, the willingness to stretch onesselves and read further into the subject, a level of interest, aptitude and experience in place - all of this is required to succeed at any type of course and carry the learning forwards. Writing is no different?
 
Aptitude is important. In the case of writing, you might call it talent, but it has to be cultivated. And with writing it has to go beyond interest -- there has to be almost a compulsion, because cultivating that talent and learning all that needs to be learned is not going to be easy.

But some of those students who were not committed enough when they were taking his class, they might find out a decade or so later that they do have stories they feel compelled to tell, and having grown up sufficiently, also discover the dedication is there, too.

Experience is what you gather up along the way, by writing and writing and writing. And some kinds of previous experience -- like academic writing, or journalism -- may give you needed skills that apply to fiction writing, but there is also a lot that you will have to unlearn, because a lot of their rules make for very poor fiction writing.

I don't know if creative writing courses emphasize (or even bring up) the importance of research. If they are teaching you to write literary fiction in contemporary settings, the teacher might not recognize the need for research. For genre writers research can be incredibly important. And I don't just mean the research you do for your current novel, but the research you do for the novel you don't know yet that you are going to write. For the book you might write three or four or ten years later, after you have assimilated the information you've picked up during research.

As a fantasy writer, I have researched a lot of subjects, not just when I had a book to write, but because something caught my fancy, subjects historical, mythological, magical, geographical, and more. I've particularly found out how helpful familiarity with some of these subjects can be when I am editing.

And of course it's important to read a lot of books by writers who have a wonderful facility for putting words together. (Which I imagine is what some of that assigned reading Mr. Boudinot was talking about. But it helps if the books you read delight you, so that you are really paying attention. Which might be because you choose for yourself the books that interest you, or might be because you have an instructor who is able to communicate his or her enthusiasm for the books he or she assigns. Whatever enthusiasm he once had, it sounds like he lost it a long time before he wrote that article.)

And despite what he said about neural pathways, I think few children or teenagers have a real appreciation for language. They are reading for the stories and the settings. Books that bore them stiff as teenagers or in their early twenties might enthrall them later, when they are old enough to appreciate them, and not just for the language but in other ways, too. That's why I think that a lot of the reading that teenagers are assigned in high school teaches them to dislike the classics rather than love them. They are given those books before they are ready for them. I don't mean that students who are assigned these books aren't intelligent enough to understand them on a surface level, because the brighter students most certainly are, but I don't think they are able to connect with the books on a deeper, more personal level.

To give an example: one year when I was in high school we were assigned to read Great Expectations. Even though I had read and enjoyed some Dickens before, even though I'd had what they measured as "reading comprehension" at an adult level since I was about ten years old, I really disliked that book. I don't know if I even read enough of it to do a decent job with the classwork and the homework assignments; I suspect not, because the book really was torture for me. But it can't have been more than two or three years later that I was assigned the book again in college. And I loved everything about it, the story, the characters, the language. I don't know what had happened, but somehow I had changed enough, or matured enough, to be able to appreciate it.

So I think that Mr. Boudinot was a little (or a lot) premature in assessing the potential of some of his students. I am sure he was right about most of them, but I'm betting he was wrong many times as well. And I do think that an early love of reading and writing is an advantage, which those who develop it later will have to work extra hard to overcome. That doesn't mean that they can't or won't overcome it.
 
Wendig says:

What I know is this: your desire matters. If you desire something bad enough, if you really want it, you will be driven to reach for it. No promises you’ll find success, but a persistent, almost psychopathic urge forward will allow you to clamber up over those muddy humps of failure and into the eventual fresh green grass of actual accomplishment.

Writers are not born. They are made. Made through willpower and work. Made by iteration, ideation, reiteration. Made through learning — learning that comes from practicing, reading, and through teachers who help shepherd you through those things in order to give your efforts context.

To me, it looks like there is a bit of a contradiction there. Because where does that "almost psychopathic urge forward [that] will allow you to clamber up over those muddy humps of failure" come from? I think you are born with it, and I think the fact that that urge is directed at writing is something you are born with, too, though it may not manifest until later in life. In fact, more often than not it doesn't manifest until you are older than your teens or twenties. But for goodness sake (if I were on another forum I might use a stronger word than "goodness") not everyone is born with that intensity of desire to do anything, much less write.
 
Chuck Wendig said:

This is one of those points he makes that almost sounds right-on. Because, sure, you shouldn’t complain about not having time to write. Wanna be a writer? Find the time to write.

Except, he’s talking to students. Students, who routinely do not have enough time. Students, who of course are going to complain because complaining is part and parcel of life. So, “just drop out” seems maybe a little presumptuous, don’t you think?

What on earth is he talking about? In my first year at uni I wrote various short stories, wrote a play, started another, and wrote articles for the student paper, and for another independent publication.

I dropped out from my chemistry degree precisely because I realised that I should chase up writing or drama.

The idea that failure and lack of interest can be excused seems to hark back to spring's comment about writers being precious little snowflakes - the false notion that anyone can become a writer if given a little encouragement, because, you know, it's easy and anyone can do it.
 
The idea that failure and lack of interest can be excused seems to hark back to spring's comment about writers being precious little snowflakes - the false notion that anyone can become a writer if given a little encouragement, because, you know, it's easy and anyone can do it.

Isn't the notion that only the select few can be writers part of the whole 'writers are precious snowflakes' mythology?
 
Maybe it is, but I think perhaps it works for most of the arts (Arts? ARTS?) -- you struggle to be a musician if you're tone deaf, for example. Or at least, I assume you would. I have no real interest in music so I wouldn't really know.

Some people hear language differently, and work with it differently, and care about it differently. It doesn't mean they were born different, necessarily, though I think perhaps sometimes they were. It doesn't mean other people can't be writers. But if someone is effectively tone deaf to language, then maybe it's harder for them to learn?

I think -- from teaching and academic stuff and things -- that there are people who have aptitudes (some people are brilliantly clever, some can cut right to the heart of an argument, some can work really hard and remember the things they study), and there are people who don't -- or at least, they don't have aptitudes that come to the attention of a tutor. Partly, it depends on what you're interested in and how hard you're prepared to work and all that, partly it depends on what you happened to be born with or grow up learning about.

Lots of people fall to pieces when they're faced with maths, or foreign languages. Some people have aptitudes for learning new languages, some people scupper themselves before they even start -- but some people certainly find it easier than others.

There's a balance between dismissing the rest of the world because writers are precious snowflakes, and believing that everything is down to hard work and everyone can be as good as everyone else. It doesn't always work like that.

re students and time. Most students are terrible at time management. It doesn't mean they should give up and go home. It means they should be offered the opportunity to learn.
 
Only a select few want it enough to do all the work without immediate rewards or validation, and keep coming back to clamber over more of those muddy humps. Only a select few have the drive to keep going, because writing matters to them enough to gain the skill despite all discouragements and all the effort involved. Only a select few find the process itself rewarding enough to keep grinding away at it. What in that indicates that they are precious snowflakes?* It means that they are people with a particular, and consuming, desire that other people don't happen to have. Those other people may have their own consuming desires and be just as committed to them, but they aren't writers and never will be writers and don't seriously want to be writers (even though, asked a hypothetical question about what they want to be, they might say writer because it sounds fun or glamorous) because they have better things to do, better for them, because more suited to their tastes and their talents.
____
*By that reckoning, there are a lot of people pursuing a lot of different aims with passion and desire that must be precious snowflakes. Which is actually a pretty stupid term, now that I think about it, because it's just one of those vague dismissive phrases that is designed to make other people wilt without actually furthering the discussion.
 
Isn't the notion that only the select few can be writers part of the whole 'writers are precious snowflakes' mythology?
Not neccesarily. In talking about precious snowflakes I'm not trying to say anyone can be a writer - I was just saying that becoming a writer may be no harder than many other specialist careers, especially for those very good at them. I couldn't be an F1 racing designer. I have no interest or aptitude. I don't know how the engines work, the aerodynamics etc. A writer is no more special tham anyone on top of their game - that's a different argument than anyone could be a writer.

I might also be totally wrong about all of it of course.

Edit - I also agree with TE - as a term it's of limited value. It was only a quick throwaway in my post and a musing on if there was a danger of it, not that it was a reality. Just to be clear.
 
I don't know if creative writing courses emphasize (or even bring up) the importance of research. If they are teaching you to write literary fiction in contemporary settings, the teacher might not recognize the need for research. For genre writers research can be incredibly important. And I don't just mean the research you do for your current novel, but the research you do for the novel you don't know yet that you are going to write. For the book you might write three or four or ten years later, after you have assimilated the information you've picked up during research.

I had one teacher in undergrad make us turn in a story based solely on research we did. (I did mine on how to grow marijuana, lol, but the fiction story turned out pretty well.) Sadly, when I obtained my MFA, nothing mentioned of research at all in the workshops, literature classes, or voice/methods courses. You had to take a non-fiction workshop for that. I cannot tell you how important research is--AND--how to implement research into your writing. Whether that is memoir in nature or a topic of your choosing. There were a large number of students in my MFA classes who would write thinly veiled nonfiction and call it "fiction," only to struggle (immensely) when their story received a lot of critique.

Example:

The class (on a whole): "This female character. She's just... awful. I have no idea why the main character (a male) would be attracted to her, or interested in her. She is one-dimensional and shrewish for no reason."
Writer: (Well, that's how it happened to me, so I don't know what to tell you)​

The writer obviously didn't take into account that while his experiences might have been authentic and wonderful, they did not TRANSLATE to the page. At all.
 
If you are writing about your own experiences, you can't truly know what the other real people involved were thinking or why they did what they did -- you can only go by your own guesses, or what they told you (which may not be reliable), and all of it colored by your own emotions, and very likely your selective memory -- which makes it very hard to make their motivations as convincing as those of fictional characters that you have invented, whose motivations you will know. In fiction, it doesn't matter if that's "how it happened." It only matters if you can make it convincing. That's where a lot of fledgling writers get stuck. When critiquers say that they don't understand why a character did what they did, what it really means is that you haven't convinced them ... yet. You've left something out that would make it believable; you have to figure out what it was. Or wait several years until you can look at what happened with more perspective, and then, if you still want to write about it, give it another try.
 
Isn't the notion that only the select few can be writers part of the whole 'writers are precious snowflakes' mythology?

I interpreted the phrase "precious snowflakes" to imply that aspiring writers, in particular, are so delicate and fragile that they need to be protected as much as possible against the real world. I may have misunderstood the use. :D
 

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