Are we too precious about writing?

[Ursa major]

I'm not sure there are many careers where people put in hundreds of hours of training for a market that's many, many times over-supplied, and where even moderate success will get you an hourly rate that's much closer to zero than to the minimum wage.

Exactly.

First of all, it involves being self-employed, which is still not what most people in employment are. Second, the market for the work is comparatively small. Publishing is not a huge industry.

Third, when one is employed (i.e. not self-employed), one is receiving an income** from day one. To earn the sort of money from writing that I used to get when in full-time employment, I'd have to be quite well known. Few people outside my company (and even within it) had ever seen my name, and yet I was a higher rate taxpayer with not a single worry about when, and from where, my next pay cheque would be arriving. I could thus devote my time to doing my immediate job. Note that I don't think I was particularly special or lucky, just on the payroll in a decent job.


** - Which may or not be adequate to one's needs, but at least it would be being paid on a regular basis, and could be used to get loans/mortgages, etc.

 

[HareBrain]

My only experience of "career" is the three years when I was training as a Chartered Accountant. And you're right (@springs) that sometimes writing feels the same kind of task as some I did then, such as writing reports. The difference is, I think, is there was a framework for where my career would go, even if I left the firm and went into industry. I would know roughly how marketable I was, what kind of salary I could command, what training I should get, etc. I would know which jobs to apply for so I didn't overreach myself or sell myself short. I would have a reasonable prospect of a lifetime's employment, with my position and salary tending to increase as time went on. (As it was, I ditched that side of it and went for temporary contracts, which I wouldn't class as a "career" as such, any more than my current job.)

That is much less true of writing, and the arts in general. I can see that for a more market-focused writer the difference might not be as great.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Acting, painting, archaeology, dressmaking/fashion, not all chefs are equal etc There are lots of careers where people put in their all and may not make it. There are an awful lot of writers who expect to be good without putting in that level of effort.

I've just received £35 for less than two hours work so considerably more than the minimum wage. Although it'll only cover the yacht varnish for the bathroom floor.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

It's just another career with a set of skills needed to succeed, most of which are the same set of skills you need in any career where you want to perform at the highest level

Except you are doing because you really want to. It's only slightly less mad than playing Lotto if motivation is ONLY money. Of course most of us want to be paid ...

But no I don't see it the same as my hobbies

I agree

The trouble is, being a fiction writer may be seen as "easy" because all you have to do is write words, and anyone can do that, right?

Well, no. My daughter argues that many published authors are not very good at that.

I'm not sure there are many careers where people put in hundreds of hours of training for a market that's many, many times over-supplied, and where even moderate success will get you an hourly rate that's much closer to zero than to the minimum wage.

Agreed

I think the line between "job" and "hobby" or "art" is too blurred to compare it to most other careers.
To me, "career" is what I'd like to happen with the writing, it's not the writing itself. That differentiates it from other careers

Yes, it's not a job, in the sense that no-one is paying me. But they might.
It needs a lot more focus I find than any of my hobbies. There is a "hobby element".

I don't think I can stop writing this time. Last time in 1990s I got distracted by work. Now that seems to be a fast dwindling possibility.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Well, no. My daughter argues that many published authors are not very good at that.
.

Maybe but I'd argue anyone who can make 100s, 1000s or even millions want to read their books has to be pretty good at stringing them words to together They have to have something or they won't sell several books.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

100s, 1000s or even millions want to read their books has to be pretty good at stringing them words to together

I suspect she has been buying cheap self published books on Amazon ...

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I suspect she has been buying cheap self published books on Amazon ...

Ahh... I seem to have done rather well with them and read some really good ones.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I would love to be able to thank my wife and family for supporting me me and making this possible - however, I can't because not a one of them believed I could do it. I still love them anyway.

It is a damn battle to make time to work on writing. The only people who believe, and take it seriously are my co-writer and lifelong friend Darren, and the few who have actualy read our work.

But no, I do not call myself an aspiring writer. I was an aspiring writer before I began, maybe in the first faltering months. Now, I am a writer. I write, a lot, when I'm not writing, I'm thinking about the stories I am writing.
I will not think or refer to myself as an author until I am published. But I am a writer. I write, therefore I am a writer. To think otherwise is to sell yourself short.

What he said!

My family have no interest at all in anything I write and treat the whole thing as a bit of a joke. "Mum's off on another obsession. Wonder when it'll wear off."

When I started writing I called myself an aspiring writer. Once I finished my novel's first draft I called myself a writer, but only if pressed. If and when I get published I might begin to call myself an author, if only in my own head. Too worried about the reaction of family and friends to say it aloud I think, even then.

I know it's all a matter of semantics, but the words are important to me.

 

[Wo7f]

My opinion, one has to have a passion to write. That's it, plain and simple. But it's not to say that you shouldn't first hone your skill and learn to be a master of your craft. This also boils down to a question. How determined are you to learn? So I suppose, in my opinion, you need two things. A Passion for writing and Determination to learn.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

but the words are important to me.

Probably that's why you are a writer, probably an author.

In my mind a writer encompasses magazine articles, blog posts, short stories.
If you write a novel, then you are an Author.
If published, then you're a Published Author.
If you sell loads or get media attention or prestigious prize, then you are a Recognised Author.

IMO a real novel at 1st Draft is the work of an Author.

 

[jastius]

I remember my guidance counselor suggesting writing as a career path for me. I told him I would rather make a living.
( Special snowflake me, I soooo don't think so...)
I have always defined a career as an acquired skillset transferable into opportunities to make a living.
Writing seriously never seemed to fit this criteria, However much the freewheeling mint maker the glamourized consensus of public perceptions seemed to otherwise indicate.
To me writing has never been about money so much as the storytelling.. Even as a kid I had taken the fiscal instability lessons of spiderman's journalism aspirations to heart. After all, even superman as Clark Kent had that cape and boots thing going as a sideline.
So no I don't believe in special snowflakism. Do I think I have unique skills? Yes. But then I believe the same of you all.
Everything we do augments what we can do as writers, aspiring, accomplished or simply self improving, wherever we are on this carousel. But it doesn't change that any unearned expectations are just that, unearned... Until you give your intentions a backbone and your writing takes on a pulse, a life of its own, letting your unholy frankenstien's monster stagger about terrorizing the villagers until you reign in your creations from expectation to actuality.
So is it simple, easy, step by step to certain progress? Yes and no.
Yes that if you learn the structure, memorize your elements of style, put in the work and effort, you will become an efficient technician. You will know how to take your work from a to b.
But success financially or even producing something worth reading? No. Whether speaking of feduciary viability or public appeal... That is the bit of your souls worth that you insert.. And quality as they say varies.
But mythically special to be a writer? Yes. And here is why. Writing is one of the last ways Joe Q Public can achieve even transient immortality. To become recognized. Remembered. A cultural icon. Influence the very times we live in. Add to the thoughts and dreams of people they will Never meet or ever speak to. Inspire popular culture, science, religion, reform, and even political process by the power of our words and message. Martin Luther King had a dream. We write them.
Special much? You tell me.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

slightly a rant here, sorry. I've been reading lots of articles here and elsewhere about writing and when you should start and what skills you need and how to be successful and what mental attributes you need and what sacrifices are needed to become one.

It's like we've taken writing as a career choice and made it something special. Almost mythical. That it's somehow different.

I'm not sure it is. It's just another career with a set of skills needed to succeed, most of which are the same set of skills you need in any career where you want to perform at the highest level (and I will accept to make any money you need to be writing and hitting the market, at a good level.)

Am I alone in this? Because it's becoming an obsession. Everytime I see one of the threads about what makes a writer, reasons you shouldn't be one etc, I'm replacing writer with a different occupation and, mostly, the message isn't changing much. Are we taking it all a bit serious? Is there a danger - whisper it - of buying into a mythology that we're special snowflakes for being writers? Or did I just wake up grumpy?

Not at all. I think it mostly comes from myths we like to tell ourselves because we'd generally like to think of writing as this precious and difficult art that only a select few can pull off rather than a simple craft that almost anyone can learn given enough time, patience, and practice. Amateurs worry about the art of it all, most professional writers talk about the craft. It's a bit more interesting than bricklaying and building houses, but it's still a trade and it's still a craft.

Dean Wesley Smith does some great articles on the myths of writing and publishing, found here. Of special note are Myth #1: One Way, Myth #2: Fast is Bad, Myth #3: Rewriting, and especially Myth #9: Writing is Hard.

 

[LittleStar]

I think as writers, aspiring or not, we have an insight into the job, that a lot of others probably don't understand, and can't understand.
On the face of it, writing is a very simple job. I know I've read things, very recently in fact, that I look at and think why does this take so long? The sentences are so easy, just a string of words, and yet hey make p something that I'm enjoying and is popular. Say it takes two weeks to read a book in this way, surely it can't take much longer to write it, one might think. I could copy page of those sentences in a few minutes x 200 or so isn't much work at all.

I think most people see it as an easy job that anyone can do. But we have that knowledge that it takes weeks, months and years to write even half of those 200 pages, not days. And even longer simmering n the brain before pen touches paper, and longer afterwards again in re-draft and countless edit phases... And even after that time, you still don't get the recognition for the achievment. There's that anecdote about people spending xx amount on their morning coffee, but won't send the same amount of xx years of a person's life's ambition.

So I think maybe we are a bit precious about our chosen job/career/hobby, but I imagine a lot of people are the same about their own. Why do footballers get paid a million £ every 10 days? Their job doesn't look tough. 90 minutes/week isn't exactly a 9-5... And astronauts don't even need to use their legs!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

a simple craft that almost anyone can learn given enough time, patience, and practice.

I don't think that is really true. There has to be a certain aptitude, and most people don't have that aptitude (fortunately, most of those have no desire to be writers anyway) any more than most people have an aptitude for music, or sculpture, or the law, or medicine, or sport, or ... the list goes on. (If by "learn" you mean become good at. At it's most basic level we all know how to write by the time we leave school.) But not everyone has the same amount of aptitude, and certainly some people with a moderate aptitude make the most of what they have with time, patience, and practice -- and I would add persistence -- and so enjoy at least a small amount of success, and some with more aptitude waste theirs because they don't understand the importance of working at their craft, and get nowhere at all.

But, yes, I think a lot of people become too precious about their writing, mostly those who don't do very much of it. They like playing the role of artiste more than they like doing much writing, and they have convinced themselves that the role is the reality. Fortunately, most of those grow up and get over it.

What bothers me the most, though, is that writers sometimes make such a big deal about how sensitive they are. Once they become successful, they talk about how soul destroying it was to work at ordinary jobs. I've worked at some of those jobs, and I actually rather enjoyed them (enjoyed the regular paychecks, too) though I never loved them as I love writing. In fact, I've been told by some writers that doing a simple job that requires almost no brain power (what some of those other writers would seem to consider the equivalent of being put on the rack every day and then roasted over a fire) actually leaves them with more mental energy that they can apply to their writing when they get home. Meanwhile, of course, bringing in just enough money to remove any nagging, distracting fear of starvation.

I think that the people who are the most precious about writing are those at the extreme ends of the spectrum, those who don't really have the drive to do it, and some of those who have become very successful (and hear so often that they're special people who need tender handling that they come to believe it).

Most writers are sensitive, of course -- and I think sensitivity may be both our greatest ally and our greatest enemy -- but we manage to live our lives without everyone catering to that sensitivity.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

But we have that knowledge that it takes weeks, months and years to write even half of those 200 pages, not days. And even longer simmering n the brain before pen touches paper, and longer afterwards again in re-draft and countless edit phases... And even after that time, you still don't get the recognition for the achievment...

So I think maybe we are a bit precious about our chosen job/career/hobby, but I imagine a lot of people are the same about their own. Why do footballers get paid a million £ every 10 days? Their job doesn't look tough. 90 minutes/week isn't exactly a 9-5... And astronauts don't even need to use their legs!

I tend to think the first paragraph is an example of being precious about writing. It doesn't take years to write 100 pages. Not if you're actually serious and putting in regular work. It takes what... about an hour to type 1000 words. If you're writing for an hour a day, five days a week, after eighteen weeks that's 90,000 words. One-hundred manuscript pages is about 25,000 words. If it's taking a person a year to write 25,000 words, that's less than 500 words per week, less than 100 words per day. That's either someone who's far, far too precious about their writing or someone who wants to have written, but doesn't want to actually write.

I don't think that is really true. There has to be a certain aptitude, and most people don't have that aptitude (fortunately, most of those have no desire to be writers anyway) any more than most people have an aptitude for music, or sculpture, or the law, or medicine, or sport, or ... the list goes on. (If by "learn" you mean become good at. At it's most basic level we all know how to write by the time we leave school.) But not everyone has the same amount of aptitude, and certainly some people with a moderate aptitude make the most of what they have with time, patience, and practice -- and I would add persistence -- and so enjoy at least a small amount of success, and some with more aptitude waste theirs because they don't understand the importance of working at their craft, and get nowhere at all.

When I say everyone can learn to write I mean just that. Everyone. Not everyone can become Stephen King, mind, that takes talent. But yes, anyone and everyone can learn to string words together into a workmanlike sentence. String sentences together to form workmanlike paragraphs. Paragraphs to pages. Pages to stories. Not that those stories will be the most staggering and beautiful creations ever seen, no. But serviceable, maybe even well-crafted stories, yes. But, it takes a hell of a lot of patience and practice. Some people simply won't put in the work and therefore they 'can't' learn how to write. But, yes, anyone willing to put in the work can learn. It's just a skill like any other. It's not magic.

 

[J Riff]

Special snowflakes in a blast furnace. *

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

You say "a skill like any other," but not every skill can be learned by everyone. We are all different, we all have different aptitudes, different strengths, different weaknesses. To say that there is any skill we could all learn to do serviceably is, I think, to deny that individuality. And it puts most skilled jobs on the level with scrubbing the floor. Besides, there has to be something inside you, some inner drive or compulsion to do one certain thing, some passionate love for whatever it is, that feeds that necessary patience, practice, and persistence -- instead of putting all of that energy into something you know will provide immediate satisfaction in the way of a guaranteed paycheck (at least while the job lasts). That drive, that passion, for whatever it is, is not magic, it's simply a facet of who we are as individuals. Other people have different passions that may provide the drive to acquiring the skills they want, the careers they want, or may simply make them passionate spectators, like the sports fan who knows all of the statistics and attends every home game.

Our passions, whatever they are, don't make us more precious than other human beings, they simply make us human.

I think -- but perhaps I am wrong -- what Little Star is trying to describe is the difference between someone who dashes off a story quickly and considers it done, without taking any time at all for editing or polishing because they believe they are above that, and the person who writes at a very slow pace because they do a lot of editing as they go. I don't know if that makes them too precious about their writing, or not. That is, I believe in some cases that will be true, but in others not, and I would have to be acquainted with the writers and their work to figure out which is which. Some of us write more quickly, but then spend a year or two editing, revising, and polishing our work; others do edit as they go and it seems to work well for them. Still others are just fast. They write, they revise, they polish, all at a furious pace, and are still very good. But it is possible that if they slowed down they would be even better.

 

[LittleStar]

I tend to think the first paragraph is an example of being precious about writing. It doesn't take years to write 100 pages. Not if you're actually serious and putting in regular work. It takes what... about an hour to type 1000 words. If you're writing for an hour a day, five days a week, after eighteen weeks that's 90,000 words. One-hundred manuscript pages is about 25,000 words. If it's taking a person a year to write 25,000 words, that's less than 500 words per week, less than 100 words per day. That's either someone who's far, far too precious about their writing or someone who wants to have written, but doesn't want to actually write.

A little clarification on my part, I meant 100 pages of Publishable standard, crafted, edited and revised work. As you say the numbers add up pretty quickly, but 1000 words of perfected work per hour is a bit much. That's not to say you don't make a good point. But some people do just write quicker than others, or have different approaches, or indeed just find it easier to write.

EDIT: Teresa made it sound better than i did

 

[Jo Zebedee]

As a write, revise, polisher space is needed to make the work strong. For that reason I work across multiple projects over a space of time. When I take over the world (hee ) it could look like fishbowl's word count scenario - in reality the books will be several years in the growing to give space between edits. I would challenge anyone to produce something polished without time to grow it...

 

[Nick B]

I'm not too sure what is meant by 'too precious about their writing' to be quite honest. Does that mean they believe themselves specially gifted, the 'artist' who swoons and has to have their toast done just so or their muse dies? If that is what it means, then hopefully we are not all too precious.

As someone said though, look at what a good book does when the right person reads it. I most certainly have read books that have changed me as a person. Many of us have a few books we revisit regularly and it feels like seeing old friends again. If an author can do that to me, it can do it to most people and that is talent. That is special.

I once said to my co author if just a couple of hundred people read our work, and a handful of those loved it, and just a few of that handful came away changed (hopefully for the better ), then our work would have been worth every ounce of blood sweat and tears that went into it.

I think, possibly in that respect, we may be just a little precious over our work. It matters. If to no one else, it matters to us. On the other hand, if I turned into a zen-like diva of the writing world over it, I would be better off shot.