Really surprised to read this!
Are we too precious about writing?
- Thread starter Jo Zebedee
- Start date
Really surprised to read this!
A common response I got in my early days was "lacks zing". An author has to find zing.
AJB
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2012
- Messages
- 85
I haven't read all the replies yet - there are so many! Good questions always produces lots of answers.
Perhaps it's not so much that writers are the special ones, but more the case that the actual finished pieces of writing is what really is special. More people will generally remember the art then the artists themselves. The artist could be seen as a mere label to what really is fascinating/special - Everyone here knows how a piece of writing can make people feel/think. If writers are to be labelled as special, it might be that they yearn to recreate those miraculous things that people love. Reading is an experience that can take someone anywhere within ones mind, yet it's not just an experience but some very complicated and subjective communication that is unique to all (each person's experience of a piece of writing being different to another). It's so illusive! - Perhaps why the thoughts of mysticism can be attached to the process of writing/reading. Great writing could be deemed to unite many into feeling a very similar experience -the writing being so well written that that it affects people very similarly - the right words in the right place, uniting people in a common experience/feeling that makes people want to share it/feel it, with others, since it perhaps ignites something about humanity/life that is universal.
As to wanting to be a writer, its about communicating with others - all social media is enough evidence to show there is something innate and joyful about writing/communicating with the larger community around them. A novel requires a heap load of effort and I would say, require the writer to put a lot of his/her self into that piece of writing. It's a very solitary experience writing/editing a whole novel, yet the communication could be seen as a deeply more intimate one when someone else reads it. Writers know that, which is perhaps why they want to put all that time/effort into it, since the payoff -the act of communicating - is something that can't just be put into a mere 144 characters (not saying that there is no skill in writing in very short forms - some of it can be the most skilful). The disappointment of course, could be that not many will read it, but this does not mean that one has failed, since they have tried to say something to the world. If anything else, that novel stays close to the writer, and he/she has at least communicated deeply with oneself - something that has its own inherent benefits/joys.
Perhaps it's not so much that writers are the special ones, but more the case that the actual finished pieces of writing is what really is special. More people will generally remember the art then the artists themselves. The artist could be seen as a mere label to what really is fascinating/special - Everyone here knows how a piece of writing can make people feel/think. If writers are to be labelled as special, it might be that they yearn to recreate those miraculous things that people love. Reading is an experience that can take someone anywhere within ones mind, yet it's not just an experience but some very complicated and subjective communication that is unique to all (each person's experience of a piece of writing being different to another). It's so illusive! - Perhaps why the thoughts of mysticism can be attached to the process of writing/reading. Great writing could be deemed to unite many into feeling a very similar experience -the writing being so well written that that it affects people very similarly - the right words in the right place, uniting people in a common experience/feeling that makes people want to share it/feel it, with others, since it perhaps ignites something about humanity/life that is universal.
As to wanting to be a writer, its about communicating with others - all social media is enough evidence to show there is something innate and joyful about writing/communicating with the larger community around them. A novel requires a heap load of effort and I would say, require the writer to put a lot of his/her self into that piece of writing. It's a very solitary experience writing/editing a whole novel, yet the communication could be seen as a deeply more intimate one when someone else reads it. Writers know that, which is perhaps why they want to put all that time/effort into it, since the payoff -the act of communicating - is something that can't just be put into a mere 144 characters (not saying that there is no skill in writing in very short forms - some of it can be the most skilful). The disappointment of course, could be that not many will read it, but this does not mean that one has failed, since they have tried to say something to the world. If anything else, that novel stays close to the writer, and he/she has at least communicated deeply with oneself - something that has its own inherent benefits/joys.
AJB
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2012
- Messages
- 85
Just wanted to add that I have read ALL responses now 
I echoed a bunch of people which was nice to see (Romanticism lives on!)
It would be interesting to see this discussion opened up to non-writers. I suspect a lot of people would say "I could never write a novel". I do generally agree that anyone who sets out to learn something, can, with effort and practice, achieve great things in most lines of art/work. However, it is worth saying for those who are good/competent at something, it can seem obvious that anyone can also do it, since they have been through the process of doing it. People see a magic trick and are amazed by the show, yet to them, it is not a show - it is MAGIC! When one goes backstage and watches the rehearsal, the nuts and bolts are seen. Those who watch the rehearsal can also be a mage!
I echoed a bunch of people which was nice to see (Romanticism lives on!) It would be interesting to see this discussion opened up to non-writers. I suspect a lot of people would say "I could never write a novel". I do generally agree that anyone who sets out to learn something, can, with effort and practice, achieve great things in most lines of art/work. However, it is worth saying for those who are good/competent at something, it can seem obvious that anyone can also do it, since they have been through the process of doing it. People see a magic trick and are amazed by the show, yet to them, it is not a show - it is MAGIC! When one goes backstage and watches the rehearsal, the nuts and bolts are seen. Those who watch the rehearsal can also be a mage!
Only some of the tricks, though, AJB: the mechanical ones or the illusions. Anything that requires sleight of hand is not going to be possible for those who lack the necessary hand-eye-coordination. And that, I think, is closer to what good writing needs, not just the mechanics, but some aptitude on the part of the writer. We aren't all wired the same, not physically or mentally. And thank goodness! It would be boring if we were all the same.
__
springs, the Writing Challenges give me hope. There are months when I can't even clear my thoughts to write a 75 word story, and that scares me. But there are enough months when I can that I think maybe all is not lost.
__
springs, the Writing Challenges give me hope. There are months when I can't even clear my thoughts to write a 75 word story, and that scares me. But there are enough months when I can that I think maybe all is not lost.
AJB
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2012
- Messages
- 85
I do agree with you Teresa: As with all magic, not all is what it appears to be, especially powerful magic. Incantations need the right tone, the right timing, the right words, otherwise the spells fizzle, the bricks remain bricks and the golden road remains just a sparkle of imagination.
Theresa your stories are always and have always been scary good. They are like diving into a pool and realizing the pool is actually the ocean and seeing everything beneath the sea for the first time... A whole new universe.
If you were to write nursery rhymes, even limericks, they would still be amazing.. You make it all good.
If you have trouble finding words its probably because they hide themselves in shame because the words know they aren't good enough for your writing.
I'm afraid to tell you that you are more or less doomed to being the Goddess Incarnate of Writing for definitely forevermore...
David Evil Overlord
Censored Member
What Jastius said.
Hehe, try not to let your head explode from the addoring fans Theresa!
It's interesting to see the differences here, those who see the mechanical side of good technical writing, those who see the magic that writers conjure into being, and those who see an amalgamation of these things to create a whole.
It's interesting to see the differences here, those who see the mechanical side of good technical writing, those who see the magic that writers conjure into being, and those who see an amalgamation of these things to create a whole.
Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
You need inspiration and perspiration built on top of the aptitude and training. Miss one of the four and it's very hard to succeed.
Same with composing, painting, programming.
Anyone can learn a programming language. Maybe less than 10% of Computer Science or Electronics Graduates can actually produce decent programs, because knowing a language isn't enough (c.f. a Composer vs someone that can sight read music and play it, how well you can play music to an extent depends on training, but to progress beyond "party pieces" you need more aptitude).
Music you can perhaps get by on some levels with average aptitude and training and perspiration. But the top music people need more. You also need even more luck than a writer to be a chart buster!
Same with composing, painting, programming.
Anyone can learn a programming language. Maybe less than 10% of Computer Science or Electronics Graduates can actually produce decent programs, because knowing a language isn't enough (c.f. a Composer vs someone that can sight read music and play it, how well you can play music to an extent depends on training, but to progress beyond "party pieces" you need more aptitude).
Music you can perhaps get by on some levels with average aptitude and training and perspiration. But the top music people need more. You also need even more luck than a writer to be a chart buster!
'Writing is hard' is a meme that came about because a lot of people think it's easy. I don't mean the man on the street (who in my experience is quite impressed even by basic wordsmithing). I mean people who did well in English class in high school or college, who can write a decent essay, and who have been told by friends and family that they can really write and should maybe make a vocation of it. While that's a fine starting point, there's no point in sugar-coating the reality that it's only a starting point, and that writing well enough to engage and entertain strangers is a whole different kettle of fish. And furthermore, even if you cultivate that skill there are years of dedicated labour before you have a finished novel. And then there are the financial realities, which are sobering to people who don't realize the modest sums earned even by most published authors.
Writing is no different from music, where having an interest and aptitude in playing an instrument is only the starting point to a challenge against incredible odds to become a successful performer winning awards and touring stadiums. Heck, there are millions of people out there who have no idea of the work that goes into starting and running a restaurant, and like to imagine it's something they could pull off with a little start-up money and a knack for making burritos.
There's nothing precious about being a fiction writer. But relatively few people have the aptitude and discipline to get published and read by the general public.
Writing is no different from music, where having an interest and aptitude in playing an instrument is only the starting point to a challenge against incredible odds to become a successful performer winning awards and touring stadiums. Heck, there are millions of people out there who have no idea of the work that goes into starting and running a restaurant, and like to imagine it's something they could pull off with a little start-up money and a knack for making burritos.
There's nothing precious about being a fiction writer. But relatively few people have the aptitude and discipline to get published and read by the general public.
Sorry, I didn't mean to make things about me.
My point is, that we shouldn't agonize about whether we are a "real" writer or a "real" author. That should be quite obvious. If you write on a regular basis (as opposed to just talking about the book you are going to write) then you are a writer. You may not be good, you might never be good, you might never get published ... that's a whole different series of self-doubts and insecurities. You're doing it, and you should give yourself credit for that. If you have completed something you are an author. The same applies. No matter how good you are, or will be, or how successful you may become, you have authored a book or story, so give yourself credit for that.
What you then have to ask yourself is do you have the tremendous desire and the commitment it will take to become the best writer that you can be (all the while knowing that success might never come). Maybe you don't have that level of desire and commitment. That's OK. Go find something else you can be passionate about. Sometimes, in order to earn a living we have to slog away at things we don't want to do, or at some dead-end job that puts food on the table. But what we don't have to do is be writers, not if writing is something we dread to do, or even something that bores us. And there are people who post here from time to time who say they want to write but they hate the process. (Obviously they like making up stories. That's the first step, but that's not all.) If that is the case, do something else. The world is full of wonderful things to do.
If you have the desire and the dedication, you will improve. Whether you will improve enough ... well, that could take a long time to find out. For most people when they are in the early stages of learning to write, and sometimes even later, their first and second drafts are pretty dire. Learning may come in small, small, small, steps, with only occasional epiphanies that shoot you ahead a fair distance. But for all the grinding away, and the frustrations, and the isolation, underneath all that you have to enjoy it. Because otherwise, why do it, when the joy you get from doing it may be the only reward you ever get?
But it needs to be important to you. You need to take it seriously. You need to care about all the aspects and not say, "The story is all that matters." A compelling story is vital, but there is no one thing that is "all that matters." You need to care about it all. Certainly you should play to your strengths, be willing to take a few chances, but you should not ignore the rest or feel that just by breaking the rules you have done something brave and fine. Usually (not always, but most of the time) when someone thinks they have done something startlingly original, when they think they are about to re-create the genre, all it means is that they don't read enough, they don't know what is already out there. What they have done is throw away one or two genre conventions and managed to include just about every single one of the others. What they have done is what 99.99% of the other new writers who want to be original have done.
Sometimes, though, someone does come up with something amazing and original. But originality comes from reading widely, from gathering a vast variety of influences in and out of the genre (if you only read a few books you will be overly-influenced by them), and then -- the most important thing -- how you put all the pieces together.
When it comes down to it, how you put the pieces together is always the most important thing. You can learn all the rules, you can follow them slavishly (or break them all), but in the end it comes down to how you put it all altogether, and that is where inspiration and talent come in.
After that it is persistence, persistence, persistence and timing. With persistence, you increase the chances that you will someday have the right timing, that you will have the right book at the right time for at least a modest success. You increase the chances enormously. But persistence comes from desire, from that compulsion that tells you that you have to write, that you won't be happy unless you write, and a compulsion to share what you write with others, to communicate your stories, your visions, to as many people as possible.
All the people who say, "I write for myself but if anything I write happens to be published ..." it is never going to happen. There is nothing wrong with writing for yourself. Therapy, hobby, whatever, why not? But your work is never going to "happen" to be published. You have to work toward it for it to happen, you have to take your aspirations and your writing seriously, and not innoculate yourself against disappointment with "if it happens."
Feel a passion for what you do, remember that all of it matters, love words and making up stories, be prepared to work hard, and TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.* And if any of that means you are being "precious" about your writing, then so be it. It's better than not caring enough.
______
*Not the same thing as taking yourself too seriously.
My point is, that we shouldn't agonize about whether we are a "real" writer or a "real" author. That should be quite obvious. If you write on a regular basis (as opposed to just talking about the book you are going to write) then you are a writer. You may not be good, you might never be good, you might never get published ... that's a whole different series of self-doubts and insecurities. You're doing it, and you should give yourself credit for that. If you have completed something you are an author. The same applies. No matter how good you are, or will be, or how successful you may become, you have authored a book or story, so give yourself credit for that.
What you then have to ask yourself is do you have the tremendous desire and the commitment it will take to become the best writer that you can be (all the while knowing that success might never come). Maybe you don't have that level of desire and commitment. That's OK. Go find something else you can be passionate about. Sometimes, in order to earn a living we have to slog away at things we don't want to do, or at some dead-end job that puts food on the table. But what we don't have to do is be writers, not if writing is something we dread to do, or even something that bores us. And there are people who post here from time to time who say they want to write but they hate the process. (Obviously they like making up stories. That's the first step, but that's not all.) If that is the case, do something else. The world is full of wonderful things to do.
If you have the desire and the dedication, you will improve. Whether you will improve enough ... well, that could take a long time to find out. For most people when they are in the early stages of learning to write, and sometimes even later, their first and second drafts are pretty dire. Learning may come in small, small, small, steps, with only occasional epiphanies that shoot you ahead a fair distance. But for all the grinding away, and the frustrations, and the isolation, underneath all that you have to enjoy it. Because otherwise, why do it, when the joy you get from doing it may be the only reward you ever get?
But it needs to be important to you. You need to take it seriously. You need to care about all the aspects and not say, "The story is all that matters." A compelling story is vital, but there is no one thing that is "all that matters." You need to care about it all. Certainly you should play to your strengths, be willing to take a few chances, but you should not ignore the rest or feel that just by breaking the rules you have done something brave and fine. Usually (not always, but most of the time) when someone thinks they have done something startlingly original, when they think they are about to re-create the genre, all it means is that they don't read enough, they don't know what is already out there. What they have done is throw away one or two genre conventions and managed to include just about every single one of the others. What they have done is what 99.99% of the other new writers who want to be original have done.
Sometimes, though, someone does come up with something amazing and original. But originality comes from reading widely, from gathering a vast variety of influences in and out of the genre (if you only read a few books you will be overly-influenced by them), and then -- the most important thing -- how you put all the pieces together.
When it comes down to it, how you put the pieces together is always the most important thing. You can learn all the rules, you can follow them slavishly (or break them all), but in the end it comes down to how you put it all altogether, and that is where inspiration and talent come in.
After that it is persistence, persistence, persistence and timing. With persistence, you increase the chances that you will someday have the right timing, that you will have the right book at the right time for at least a modest success. You increase the chances enormously. But persistence comes from desire, from that compulsion that tells you that you have to write, that you won't be happy unless you write, and a compulsion to share what you write with others, to communicate your stories, your visions, to as many people as possible.
All the people who say, "I write for myself but if anything I write happens to be published ..." it is never going to happen. There is nothing wrong with writing for yourself. Therapy, hobby, whatever, why not? But your work is never going to "happen" to be published. You have to work toward it for it to happen, you have to take your aspirations and your writing seriously, and not innoculate yourself against disappointment with "if it happens."
Feel a passion for what you do, remember that all of it matters, love words and making up stories, be prepared to work hard, and TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.* And if any of that means you are being "precious" about your writing, then so be it. It's better than not caring enough.
______
*Not the same thing as taking yourself too seriously.
ratsy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2008
- Messages
- 4,643
There's been a few mentions of being able to learn things, and it got me thinking. I don't doubt that anyone can learn to technically write, or play an instrument, but there is a difference between something being done technically right and something that is intriguing, and allows the reader to get invested in it.
I mean, in all honesty, if I could ever get half way there on both sides then I would be doing okay
I mean, in all honesty, if I could ever get half way there on both sides then I would be doing okay
I was joking, Theresa. You are a priceless jewel here for the advice you give. I must get round to reading your work too, I loved the sample.
I mostly read non-fiction. 100% inspirational.
AnyaKimlin
Confuddled
OK don't shoot me but I do find it easy. Yes I work hard but it doesn't break me out in a sweat. There are days my fingers hurt from the typing but it's hardly backbreaking. Yes there are moments of being down but I get to be miserable sat on my sofa or like today in bed it's not like I have to smile for the public very often. The writing bit is fun -- too much fun to be real work.
I don't call it a craft and I don't take it seriously.
Writing well is hard. I work as a writer for a living, and my colleagues challenge the words I put down on the page every day. Notice errors. Suggest improvements. I've never stopped honing my craft. And I'm not even talking about fiction, but the prosaic world of technical writing.
And by hard I mean difficult, not misery-inducing. Playing the piano well is hard, but I presume pianists aren't miserable when they practice. Running a marathon is hard but people wouldn't do it if they didn't enjoy running. Writers who find it easy probably aren't challenging themselves to get better. Which is fine - writing doesn't have to be something you take seriously. But 'writing is hard' is usually brought up in the context of getting published commercially. And to achieve that you pretty much have to take writing seriously.
And by hard I mean difficult, not misery-inducing. Playing the piano well is hard, but I presume pianists aren't miserable when they practice. Running a marathon is hard but people wouldn't do it if they didn't enjoy running. Writers who find it easy probably aren't challenging themselves to get better. Which is fine - writing doesn't have to be something you take seriously. But 'writing is hard' is usually brought up in the context of getting published commercially. And to achieve that you pretty much have to take writing seriously.
AnyaKimlin
Confuddled
My writing has not been published but I have had a piece produced by the BBC (on the back of about 3 short scripts) and a BBC producer interested enough to work with me for a year.
Writing has its trials but I'd never describe it as hard. The day I start thinking of it as difficult, hard and serious is the day I give up.
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