The Hugo Awards Kerfuffle...

Well, it seems it's time for WorldCon to stop trying to have it both ways. Either it's purely based on popularity with all the campaigning, slates, and voting blocs that will entail (absurd complaints of trash aside), or it's a prestigious committee-driven literary award. It can no longer pretend to be both.

That would seem to be the most simple solution. Either
  • Everyone can vote and thus complaints when the "wrong" books win (for any side in the debate) are just an inevitable process of the way a popular vote works. I.e That's life, or:
  • Nominations and votes are only handed to those who are preselected for a committee or an "invite" only membership. This committee may be elitist or not favour books that the majority of readers enjoy, but thats just an inevitable process of the way a committee vote works. I.e That's life.
 
Sincere apologies, folks but there's been a bit of a cock-up in this thread - JaimeRetief's posts are currently not showing after a moderator accidentally clicked the wrong button. However, I am currently unable to reinstate them, and have reported this as a bug to the xenforo forum software developers.
 
No offense to all the non-Americans here, but I truly think anyone outside the US can never really get this. As someone pointed out above, there is crazy racist religious element here in the US that is very real and that most of the rest of the west would find laughable/terrifying. The God and guns brigade if you will. It's easy to apologize for the SP's and RP's if you think this is just about defending the Hugos from PC-ness run amok and just appreciating cracking good space opera again, but if you live in the US and meet these SP/RP types you will see there is a lot to be afraid of and they are NOT fighting some good fight against oversensitive PC-ness. They want those PC people shut up so they can bust out their hoods again.

In the 90's, their influence was on the wane. In the wake of Oklahoma City bombing, Ruby Ridge, and Waco, the US began to recognize the threat of homegrown christo-libertarian fascists and the movements withered, relegated to the shadows and fracturing under federal investigation. The explosion of the internet, election of dubya, and 9/11 brought them charging back. Suddenly they were able to communicate and bond anonymously online and seemed more mainstream as America's fear of Islam grew. Then they were betrayed... America elected a black man. Since then, these guys have been in overdrive, stockpiling guns and ammo and talking about shooting up federal agents for representing the anti-Christ Obama (no joke, that is literally how he is described by many in my family and at these Tea Party rallies). The SP/RP thing is an outgrowth of this movement... they're defending the "old culture." They claim it's about wanting adventure and heroism, but really it's about their rage that American exceptionalism has become unfashionable from a literary standpoint.

Some S/RP supporters clearly fall into the category of "raging wingnuts," but I see the organizing principle behind each as somewhat different from that. RP seems, more and more, like a PR stunt for VD and JCW. VD's small press got 11 nominations (11!) on the list he and JCW were promoting, while VD got 2 (one for each editorial category) and JCW got 6. It seems very much like his game is to get stuff for himself, his imprint and its biggest author. In other words, it's a personal project dressed up as an ideological one.

SP is, I think, a different beast. I agree with you that it's not "some good fight against oversensitive PC-ness," as you put it. But I see it as following the Fox/Breitbart playbook more than anything else. Sometimes they say it's about "promoting books that are fun" or getting SF back to its "roots," at other times it's to "show those SJWs," and at others still it's to "prove" that the Hugos have been "rigged" (though how them "rigging" things proves anyone else has is beyond me). But it seems to be that it's really about identity politics, and promoting/mobilizing a specifically anti-liberal social identity in order to create a broad-based "culture war" dynamic that barely anyone else is interested in being a part of.
 
The trouble is the current voting system for the Hugo Award is trying to have it both ways. WorldCon sell the Hugo as something of a literary award, but it's handled as a tiered popular award with a small gatekeeping fee. Well, which is it? Does WorldCon want it to be treated as a literary award, or does WorldCon want it to be treated as a popular award? Literary awards typically have a shortlist drawn up by an invite-only panel which then votes or simply announces a winner. Popular awards use various forms of open voting. It has the minor gatekeeping fee (associate membership of $40) so they clearly don't want it to be a popularity contest, nor do the majority of fans as seen by the grumblings around the net on the topic, but, paradoxically, they also want it to be treated as some objective measure of the best of the best that SFF has to offer in a given year. Well, it seems it's time for WorldCon to stop trying to have it both ways. Either it's purely based on popularity with all the campaigning, slates, and voting blocs that will entail (absurd complaints of trash aside), or it's a prestigious committee-driven literary award. It can no longer pretend to be both.

It's never going to be a juried prize, as it was created to reflect the opinions of WorldCon attendees. As it stands the actual options for how voting proceeds are:

1. WorldCon keeps voting as is.

2. WorldCon lowers the price of supporting memberships or extends voting privileges for SMs.

3. WorldCon raises the price of supporting memberships or restricts voting to attending memberships.

4. WorldCon begins using a longlist, either a juried one a la the Locus Awards, or as part of a 3-step voting process.

5. WorldCon impements a "4/6" rule change, in which nominating ballots choose 4 representatives per category for a shortlist upon which there will be 6 representatives per category.

I know for a fact that #5 is going to be debated in Spokane, and there's good reason to think it's going to pass. Options #2-4 are less likely, though not implausible. I'm sure there will be voices in favor of both #2 and #3. IMO #4 is the most sensible, though I think it's also the most logistically difficult, and as such probably has the lowest likelihood of passage.

Also of note: any and all changes would only come into effect for the 2017 cycle. 2016 is therefore going to be run just like 2015.
 
No offense to all the non-Americans here, but I truly think anyone outside the US can never really get this. As someone pointed out above, there is crazy racist religious element here in the US that is very real and that most of the rest of the west would find laughable/terrifying. The God and guns brigade if you will. It's easy to apologize for the SP's and RP's if you think this is just about defending the Hugos from PC-ness run amok and just appreciating cracking good space opera again, but if you live in the US and meet these SP/RP types you will see there is a lot to be afraid of and they are NOT fighting some good fight against oversensitive PC-ness. They want those PC people shut up so they can bust out their hoods again.

This non-American is taken aback by the dogmatic vitriol of both the God and guns brigade and the identity politics language zealots. Frankly, they seem like two sides of same coin to me - passionately partisan, Manichean in outlook, and absolutely certain of their own righteousness. While it's a given that other Western democracies don't have an analogue to the Gods and guns crowd, they also don't have an analogue for the American academic leftists who obsess over depictions of gender and race with a pious eye for transgression that approaches a religious intensity. Enemies have a way of becoming like one another. I say a pox on both their houses.
 
No offense to all the non-Americans here, but I truly think anyone outside the US can never really get this. As someone pointed out above, there is crazy racist religious element here in the US that is very real and that most of the rest of the west would find laughable/terrifying.

.

I think we Northern Irish can totally empathise (only we have God, guns and bombs...) But there are always still voices of reason.
 
This non-American is taken aback by the dogmatic vitriol of both the God and guns brigade and the identity politics language zealots. Frankly, they seem like two sides of same coin to me - passionately partisan, Manichean in outlook, and absolutely certain of their own righteousness. While it's a given that other Western democracies don't have an analogue to the Gods and guns crowd, they also don't have an analogue for the American academic leftists who obsess over depictions of gender and race with a pious eye for transgression that approaches a religious intensity. Enemies have a way of becoming like one another. I say a pox on both their houses.

Been to an English university lately?

Also, as regards the USA, and to support soulslinging's point, the academic leftists you describe have very influence outside the ivory tower, and are generally more concerned with criticizing each other and/or potential allies than they are affecting large-scale social change. The hard right, on the other hand, is well organized, well funded and is in the midst of affecting a takeover of one of the two political parties. With that in mind, even if one were to agree that they are "of a kind," the level of threat just isn't even remotely similar.
 
Right, recovered JaimeRetief's posts in this thread. :)

WorldCon lowers the price of supporting memberships

Supporting memberships seems to be the key problem - from one point of view, it's simply a way to sell votes. Stop that, and wouldn't that stop the organised campaigns?
 
Supporting memberships seems to be the key problem - from one point of view, it's simply a way to sell votes. Stop that, and wouldn't that stop the organised campaigns?

That's one way to look at it. But not everyone can, for various reasons, attend the ceremony so attending membership isn't what they'd roll with. Supporting membership also grants venue to a more diverse voting poll. Instead of stopping it, might be best to limit it in some way with necessary participation in something related to the awards. That generally tends to be the best way to weed out the selling. People are lazy. They'll pay money for something, but they might not want to bother with something if all they are there for is to vote and aren't really interested in the topic at hand.
 
Supporting memberships seems to be the key problem - from one point of view, it's simply a way to sell votes. Stop that, and wouldn't that stop the organised campaigns?

There are some within the WSFS who want to stop selling supporting memberships, but I doubt it's going to pass. SMs are a source of revenue, and the WSFS wants to keep the Hugos relevant in an increasingly fractured field. Expanding the voter pool has long been seen as a way to do that. If they eliminate the SMs, then the Hugos will slowly lose ground to other awards. So I think most people inside the WSFS would like to find a way to make slate voting more difficult/less likely to succeed without circling the wagons and looking inward, so to speak.

I'm about 90% sure they are going to pass the 4/6 rule and see if that works, but not do much else than that.
 
That's one way to look at it. But not everyone can, for various reasons, attend the ceremony so attending membership isn't what they'd roll with. Supporting membership also grants venue to a more diverse voting poll. Instead of stopping it, might be best to limit it in some way with necessary participation in something related to the awards. That generally tends to be the best way to weed out the selling. People are lazy. They'll pay money for something, but they might not want to bother with something if all they are there for is to vote and aren't really interested in the topic at hand.

All true. SMs are vital for keeping the "world" part of "WorldCon" live--and they don't just allow you to vote on the Hugos, they also allow you to vote on site selection for future WorldCons. As is, approximately 2/3 WorldCons are in the US, and the rest are spread out across the globe. If the SMs were eliminated, then the effort to make WorldCon a more global event would die.
 
Right, recovered JaimeRetief's posts in this thread. :)



Supporting memberships seems to be the key problem - from one point of view, it's simply a way to sell votes. Stop that, and wouldn't that stop the organised campaigns?
Yes, but how would Worldcon and the awards receive financing.
Moreover the world part is still dubious, it is a primarily North American event that does not represent science fiction fandom adequately.It would be wonderful if there was more non Anglosphere science fiction and more non Anglosphere fans were able to participate.
This non-American is taken aback by the dogmatic vitriol of both the God and guns brigade and the identity politics language zealots. Frankly, they seem like two sides of same coin to me - passionately partisan, Manichean in outlook, and absolutely certain of their own righteousness. While it's a given that other Western democracies don't have an analogue to the Gods and guns crowd, they also don't have an analogue for the American academic leftists who obsess over depictions of gender and race with a pious eye for transgression that approaches a religious intensity. Enemies have a way of becoming like one another. I say a pox on both their houses.
It is because they have a very limited grasp of the rest of the world.
I sometimes think that for Americans all of history started with their revolution and that because they managed to cobble up a functional democracy out of the cultural and legal heritage of Britain, the ideas of the Enlightenment and the abundant and rich land of North America they formed what Henry Kissinger terms a "messianic" worldview, this worldview was reinforced by the massive economic growth, the World Wars and the Cold War.
In reality the North American colonies were extremely prosperous even before they became independent from Britain.
Adam Smith for example gives an excellent account of the prosperity of the Colonists, whose economic predicament was better than that of many inhabitants of the British Isles.
Furthermore over a third of all British ships were built in North America and at one point prior to 1776 it produced over 70% of the world's pig iron.
And pig iron and ships were not even among the most lucrative products.
An important fact in the development of the colonies was the lack of a rent seeking elite, like the aristocracy in Europe.
All of those factors led to the establishment of a pretty stable republic, however they very few Americans themselves understand all this and consequently over simplify complex,centuries and even millennia long developments.
They also forget to mention things like political machines, corruption and the fact that the franchise was only gradually expanded, nor do they care enough about to research the first Progressive reform movement, which was a very broad coalition, comprised of urban professionals employed in the various service and industry positions created by industrialization, the educated, farmers and small businessmen fed up with bad government services and unreliable railways, suffragettes, and those that wanted to expand and improve educstion, abolish machine politics, cronyism and government waste.
Even some of the Titans of US capitalism at the time were willing to support the movement's goals because it would benefit them.
It was not about a single party, person or platform, it was a broad coalition that went beyond party, gender and ethnic lines.
It succeeded in a number of ways, and failed in others.
Prohibition is one example, the rise of Robert Moses and the continuing existence of machine politics was another.
 
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Right, recovered JaimeRetief's posts in this thread. :)

Supporting memberships seems to be the key problem - from one point of view, it's simply a way to sell votes. Stop that, and wouldn't that stop the organised campaigns?

Not at all. That would make the problem worse. At least with a $40 barrier to voting you don't get vast swathes of people simply hate voting for Hugo Awards. If voting rights were free then anyone with enough interest and time could simply click a button and vote. Sounds good till you consider Brad T. and VD reached out to the GamerGate crowd. They're more than willing to spend five or ten minutes clicking around to stick it to the PC crowd, but they're far less likely to drop $40 a head to do so.
 
It is because they have a very limited grasp of the rest of the world.
I sometimes think that for Americans all of history started with their revolution and that because they managed to cobble up a functional democracy out of the cultural and legal heritage of Britain, the ideas of the Enlightenment and the abundant and rich land of North America they formed what Henry Kissinger terms a "messianic" worldview, this worldview was reinforced by the massive economic growth, the World Wars and the Cold War.

This is exactly what I was talking about. There are a ton of uneducated, provincial yokels in the American midwest and south that know nothing of history or international affairs other than "American exceptionalism"... the belief that the US is God's chosen land, a shining city on a hill. These are the people driving the SP/RP thing. It's a bunch of bitter old white men that yearn to go back to the days when gay people stayed in the closet, colored folks knew their place and had separate facilities, and the US was fighting the good fight for Jesus to keep the world free from the evil communist Russia. Whether the ringleaders truly believe this stuff is irrelevant, they know exactly what kind of rhetoric they're using and exactly who will listen to it.

Maybe you think the reaction is just the PC-thought police coming down on some poor authors that just want to read great sci-fi, but that, again, is kind of a luxury of the fact that you are NOT American so the SP/RP people probably seem harmlessly amusing to you. I can assure you, for those of us who have to live near these people, the phenomenon is very real and frightening. I am literally surrounded by people that are just itching for ANY excuse to start shooting up federal agents and start the civil war all over again, and they are constantly trying to pull people into their fold by talking about how America is being overtaken by some liberal-gay-immigrant conspiracy.
 
Not at all. That would make the problem worse. At least with a $40 barrier to voting you don't get vast swathes of people simply hate voting for Hugo Awards. If voting rights were free then anyone with enough interest and time could simply click a button and vote. Sounds good till you consider Brad T. and VD reached out to the GamerGate crowd. They're more than willing to spend five or ten minutes clicking around to stick it to the PC crowd, but they're far less likely to drop $40 a head to do so.

But doesn't that cut both ways? Can't the PC crowd then also martial their own supporters to spend five or ten minutes clicking around to vote for the books they feel better represent "good" science fiction? It would be an even playing field, and the side that gets the most votes wins.
 
But doesn't that cut both ways? Can't the PC crowd then also martial their own supporters to spend five or ten minutes clicking around to vote for the books they feel better represent "good" science fiction? It would be an even playing field, and the side that gets the most votes wins.

Sure, except there's one small problem. Hate and vitriol are far better motivators than love and caring. There was an article directly relating to this early on in the big break of the story and the initial rush of digital ink spilt. It's basically the same reason the right tends to win mid-term elections in the US. The right simply gets their voters out more consistently and more aggressively every time, year after year, whereas the left can only manage a decently sized push for the big years. In off years the right destroys the left. Now apply that to the Hugo voting. Then there's the trolls. Those who otherwise don't give a damn about the Hugos or SFF, but just want to get a good jolt of Schadenfreude off some people crying on the net. Consider the scene on Twitter related to GamerGate. For every 1 person standing up for the women being harassed, there's at least 5 men making threats, and 10 more cheering them on. If you only want to see a non-Puppy nominated accidentally once a decade or only after the rules are changed yet again, then open things up to everyone for free.
 
Sure, except there's one small problem. Hate and vitriol are far better motivators than love and caring. There was an article directly relating to this early on in the big break of the story and the initial rush of digital ink spilt. It's basically the same reason the right tends to win mid-term elections in the US. The right simply gets their voters out more consistently and more aggressively every time, year after year, whereas the left can only manage a decently sized push for the big years. In off years the right destroys the left. Now apply that to the Hugo voting. Then there's the trolls. Those who otherwise don't give a damn about the Hugos or SFF, but just want to get a good jolt of Schadenfreude off some people crying on the net. Consider the scene on Twitter related to GamerGate. For every 1 person standing up for the women being harassed, there's at least 5 men making threats, and 10 more cheering them on. If you only want to see a non-Puppy nominated accidentally once a decade or only after the rules are changed yet again, then open things up to everyone for free.

With the greatest respect, I don't see how that's a problem as relates to a book award. The basic principle of any popular vote is "the side that gets the most support wins."

If your side can't martial enough of a popular vote to defeat the other side, that's not a reason to change the rules to stop the other side voting. That's simply called "losing." It's on you to martial your support better and get more votes. And if you can't get that, you'll lose again, as you should.

I think that's what has me scratching my head about this whole thing. The basic argument appears to be:

"People whose politics are not mine are voting for books they like, in an award in which they are entitled by the rules to vote. We must stop this."

That confuses me.
 
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If your side can't martial enough of a popular vote to defeat the other side....
But there's the problem in a nutshell: sides.

Voting in the Hugos is meant to be voting for books/stories/etc. one liked reading, not trying to win for one's only-vaguely-book-related side (and thereby "defeating" one's only-vaguely-book-related opposition).
 
But there's the problem in a nutshell: sides.

Voting in the Hugos is meant to be voting for books/stories/etc. one liked reading, not trying to win for one's only-vaguely-book-related side (and thereby "defeating" one's only-vaguely-book-related opposition).

Oh don't misunderstand me, I get where the irritation comes from, but if I'm qualified to vote (I'm actually not) for what I think is the "best" book then I'm entitled to decide what the "best" is on whatever subjective criteria I like. That can be anything from "I thought it was the best book because of the prose” to “I thought it was the best book because of the plot”, to "my mate designed the cover,” to "this author is way overdue for recognition" to "I want to stick it to those nerdy lefties/facist righties” to “the SkyGod BlooBloo told me through the TV static that unless I voted for this book, he would unleash the second coming of the Petulant FrownSnakes.” If you’re eligible to vote under the rules of the ballot, you’re allowed to have whatever reason you like for thinking it’s the "best" book, even if it looks like a dumb reason to other people.

I get the irritation, but I don't understand the desire to change the rules to make sure only the "right" people vote. I don't know how you do that. It's either a popular vote or it isn't, and the impulse to take the vote away from people with "wrong" politics is something that makes me uneasy.
 
Oh course you can vote for whatever reasons you see fit, but I would suggest that this is still a problem if those reasons have nothing to do with the books at all (which, to me, would seem to be the case if the various sides are calling for, say, non-SFF-book-reading people to vote for their slate). Are people whose sole pastime is playing games -- or being a warrior for social justice, or any number of different non-SFF things -- and who have never even opened an SFF book/magazine/whatever meant to be our arbiters of quality fiction? No, but they will be if lots of them pile in to support their "side".

So, basically, the problem is that whatever validity the Hugo have (or have ever had) in selecting books that are worth a read would completely vanish.
 

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