The Hugo Awards Kerfuffle...

Oh course you can vote for whatever reasons you see fit, but I would suggest that this is still a problem if those reasons have nothing to do with the books at all (which, to me, would seem to be the case if the various sides are calling for, say, non-SFF-book-reading people to vote for their slate). Are people whose sole pastime is playing games -- or being a warrior for social justice, or any number of different non-SFF things -- and who have never even opened an SFF book/magazine/whatever meant to be our arbiters of quality fiction? No, but they will be if lots of them pile in to support their "side".

So, basically, the problem is that whatever validity the Hugo have (or have ever had) in selecting books that are worth a read would completely vanish.

Yep.

But that's democracy for you. Idiots are allowed to play in the sandpit as well if they pay the entrance fee and don't break the rules. Clearly these idiots have paid the fee and not broken the rules, otherwise their votes would be disqualified. So they get to play.

The only other option is to go the route of an invite-only sandpit, which is fine and a lot of awards do that. It has it's own drawbacks but seems to be the only way of solving the problem of people who are "problematic" taking part in the processes.
 
(my bolding)

Note that the comment to which you originally responded was pointing out the dangers in having no entrance fee.

Fair point :) I probably got muddled in which points I was addressing. My apologies. I've not had enough coffee and my brain is somewhat useless anyway :D

My basic point is that the Hugos are essentially open to the public to vote, what with the barrier to qualify being so minuscule and easy to clear. This year, the public are doing something that some people feel is extremely dumb. The public do that sometimes.

You can't make the sandpit open to the public and then complain when the public come in, with all of their weirdness and stupidity and "wrong" opinions. It's either a public sandpit or a private one.
 
If your side can't martial enough of a popular vote to defeat the other side, that's not a reason to change the rules to stop the other side voting. That's simply called "losing." It's on you to martial your support better and get more votes. And if you can't get that, you'll lose again, as you should.

I hate being this guy... but it's marshal. You marshal your support/forces. Martial means military... ie. all those US rednecks convinced Obama is trying to enact martial law and take their guns. Of course, those folks spell it Marshall because most of the people buying that nonsense didn't finish grade school. Anyway, my point is... don't be like US rednecks (y)
 
For someone that just scolded me for not checking facts, you sure do claim to know a lot about "[my] American mindset." Where are you from perchance? Let's see if we can use that to make sweeping judgments about how your opinion on this matter is irrelevant due to your worldview as well.
Are you trying to divert the discussion?

As to my birth place, ask and you will revive, behold the great and ancient nation of Absurdistan[URL="http://
Feel free to attack me about any and all government policies and nasty mindsets, as I probably oppose most of them already, however the most colorful insults I am willing to use are corrupt and incompetent"]
Feel free to attack me about any and all government policies and nasty mindsets, as I probably oppose most of them already, however the most colorful insults I am willing to use are corrupt and incompetent
.[/url]
 
But doesn't that cut both ways? Can't the PC crowd then also martial their own supporters to spend five or ten minutes clicking around to vote for the books they feel better represent "good" science fiction? It would be an even playing field, and the side that gets the most votes wins.

Since we're sort of assuming that the current "culture war" being forced on SF/F has American roots, I'm going to make some observations with regards political movements in the US.

First, I'm not on board with the term "PC crowd," as I think "PC" is an overly emotive term that tends to obscure more than it illuminates. But of course I'm not blaming you or anyone else in the thread for that--I'm just saying why I think it's the wrong term to use.

But regardless, historically speaking, movements on the hard end of the political left in the US (and in many other societies as well) tend to have "mobilization problems." They are, almost by default, riven by factionalism, doctrinal disputes and petty rivalries. The sharpest knives, it seems, often face inward.

The hard right doesn't have that problem--it's knives, as a general rule, face outward. Rather, the hard right's problem is that its views tend to be seriously unpalatable, even in the US, where the center is somewhat to the right of where it is in other industrialized societies. Hard right movements are a historical constant in US history, but they cluster regionally (in the South and "mountain West," as well as in small pockets elsewhere) and routinely struggle to expand beyond a 20% threshold. But they have sufficient mobilization capacity to dominate the news cycle and threaten to "take over." The hard left in the US simply does not.

I think that dynamic is reflected in the US side of SF/F fandom. I believe, from observation, that most SF/F fans are either casually supportive of left causes (like greater visibility for women writers), don't really care one way or the other, or are unaware of the politics. But very few are committed to the causes. A larger proportion, I suspect, are committed to hard right causes, or to opposing the pursuit of causes by the committed left of fandom, but it's still a relatively small proportion of the overall field (say, 20% to the hard left's 10%). So if we are talking mobilizing the hardcore, the hard right has big advantages over the hard left--not just in numbers, but also in mobilization capacity. However, if we are talking about the entire field, as it stands, then I see the left having some big advantages there, in the sense that the casual version of their causes do resonate more broadly. And so, when casual versions of left causes take root, they can garner more support than hard right opposition can (and still, I'll note, among a minority, given the large chunks of fans who either don't care about or are unaware of the issues). But that's soft rather than hard left.

Notable, in US fandom as well as US politics on a larger scale, it often seems as if the hard left and hard right ultimately aim the sharpest knives at the soft left.
 
But there's the problem in a nutshell: sides.

Voting in the Hugos is meant to be voting for books/stories/etc. one liked reading, not trying to win for one's only-vaguely-book-related side (and thereby "defeating" one's only-vaguely-book-related opposition).

THIS.

THIS is why I hate slate voting, and why I could never support a slate mobilization strategy--regardless of who organized it or why.
 
I think there have been at least three warnings now. If the personal attacks don't stop then I'm closing this thread. End of!

I'd appreciate it if you, or another mod, also noted that blanket statement denigrating all people from a specific country (whose residents make up a significant proportion of regular posters on this board, I might add) are also over the line.

There's no need for that kind of low-level BS--especially not on a board like this one, which prides itself on fostering an atmosphere of decorum and high level discourse.
 
Why not just delete the posts of people incapable of being polite and give them a time out until they cool down? No reason to kill the thread when there are so many of us interested in a polite discussion.
 
But regardless, historically speaking, movements on the hard end of the political left in the US (and in many other societies as well) tend to have "mobilization problems." They are, almost by default, riven by factionalism, doctrinal disputes and petty rivalries. The sharpest knives, it seems, often face inward.

I don't live in the U.S., or have any real contact with the American hard right. Even on the internet, I rarely across Tea Partiers, militia types, or biblical literalists in the places I hang out. When I do come across them, they're almost always ridiculed outsiders. So I don't have much personal reason to be wary of them. I do, however, come across a lot of Americans of the hard left in my online sojourns. Typically, identity-politics zealots who police conversation for wrong-think and language transgressions. Sometimes, they present more fundamental challenges to my classically liberal outlook, such as a hostility to empirical evidence that doesn't fit their preferred narrative. What typically happens is I challenge a post-modern leftist shibboleth, such as the myth of the blank slate, and then I'm instantly presumed to a right-winger, called out as such, and heaped with opprobrium. Any soft-left participants in the discussion retreat in silence, either because they assume I'm on the other side and they're happy enough to make common cause with the radical left in the American culture wars ("their hearts are in the right place"), or because they don't want to be the next one accused of being a bigot. Those experiences have made me very wary of the self-appointed culture police. Now, I feel whatever powers of insight and persuasion I have are better employed in the interests of classically-liberal goals and methodology - which puts me in opposition to both the hard right and hard left - than becoming another mild-mannered ally of the left in a foreign culture war.
 
I think there have been at least three warnings now. If the personal attacks don't stop then I'm closing this thread. End of!

Though I can appreciate the mod staff's need to keep things civil, it seems like bad form to not allow everyone else who's capable of simply discussing the topic to continue to do so because a few people feel the need to attack. Wouldn't it be far better to admonish those making the attacks than allowing them to scuttle the entire conversation?
 
The thread is still open for now, and posts which have been reported will be looked at (as they always are). If you feel any post is out of line, please report it rather than respond directly.
 
I've removed some posts. I'll send messages to the posters explaining why I did. If I removed one of yours, please have patience -- I will explain why.
 

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