The Mabinogion -- Welsh myth and legend

[Extollager]

I've begun Sioned Davies's translation for Oxford World's Classics. It seems to be fine (I know next to no Welsh, though, whether medieval or modern).

Here begins some whining.

I will say I'm miffed that there is not more help with pronunciation of the names. Yes, there is help with some, and, armed therewith, the reader sets out cheerfully, knowing how to pronounce Pwyll &c. But before long here's Gwri Wallt Euryn and so on -- verbal potholes that jolt the reader's trip. Davies includes guidance with pronunciation of letters and diphthongs, but how much trouble would it have been to provide pronunciation of all of the names, including place-names too? It seems rather stingy to have so few, and then it seems a bit self-indulgent instead to have so many references to articles probably of little interest to anyone but scholars -- you know the sort of thing, about how scholars associate Rhiannon with a Celtic horse-goddess Epona, etc. (with a reference to one of the editor's books). Epona Schmepona. What I wish for could have been encompassed in perhaps two or three more pages at the front of the book.

I've been reading stories based on the Mabinogion for over 50 years now (I bought most of the Evangeline Walton books as soon as they first appeared), I've read Kenneth Morris's Book of the Three Dragons retelling (he provides some help too), I've read the Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones Mabinogion, etc. -- but I still struggle with some of the names. If anyone has the Gantz translation (Penguin) -- does that one have pronunciations for all the personal names and toponyms?

 

[J-Sun]

If anyone has the Gantz translation (Penguin) -- does that one have pronunciations for all the personal names and toponyms?

I have a Dorset hardcover of the Gantz (published "by arrangement with Penguin Books") and it only has a one-page "Note on the Pronunciation of Welsh Names". It does have a 13-page index and, somewhat as you say, it would have been very easy to include a parenthetical pronunciation after each name there.

 

[Extollager]

It looks like the British Druids have a complete pronunciation guide but you have to have permission to look at it. (rolls eyes)

 

[hitmouse]

I have the Penguin Classics edition, somewhere. I cannot remember if it gives pronunciations.

I am lucky to live in a part of the world where the names and words are still in use so it is not an issue for me. I had never really considered how frustrating it must be for those not in the same situation.

There are some fairly simple rules in how to pronounce Welsh words, but that is not quite the same as being confident how a word actually sounds, and there are some subtleties in practice. The Duolingo Welsh course is pretty handy if you want a quick intro to the pronunciation (iirc.)

Let me know if any of the names or words are causing particular vexation.

Gwri Wallt Euryn: Goowrhi Wallt Ayrhin

The ri in Gwri as in Rhiannon, with a rolled R.
Wallt is pronounced as in this song by the Super Furry Animals.

 

[Extollager]

That’s a great offer, Hitmouse, and I’ll get back to you with some names soon, probably in more than one message as I continue reading.

 

[Extollager]

I have the Penguin Classics edition, somewhere. I cannot remember if it gives pronunciations.

I am lucky to live in a part of the world where the names and words are still in use so it is not an issue for me. I had never really considered how frustrating it must be for those not in the same situation.

There are some fairly simple rules in how to pronounce Welsh words, but that is not quite the same as being confident how a word actually sounds, and there are some subtleties in practice. The Duolingo Welsh course is pretty handy if you want a quick intro to the pronunciation (iirc.)

Let me know if any of the names or words are causing particular vexation.

Gwri Wallt Euryn: Goowrhi Wallt Ayrhin

The ri in Gwri as in Rhiannon, with a rolled R.
Wallt is pronounced as in this song by the Super Furry Animals.

OK, Hitmouse -- please help with as many of the following names as you wish. Even help with just a few will be welcome. I understand about the "hissed" double-L, or I sort of understand, though I kind of have to guess about what it sounds like. But at any rate I know it's not the same as an ordinary English "L" sound, and that it's not like the double-L in llama.

From The Four Branches

PERSONS

Casnar Wledig

Cymidei Cymeinfoll

Euroswydd

Gruddieu

Gwawl

Gwyn Gohoyw

Gwrgi Gwastra

Hyfaidd Hen

Llasar Llaes Gyfnewid

Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Davies does give pronunciation for Lleu)

Teyrnon Twrf Liant

Unig Glew Ysgwydd

Wlch Minasgwrn

PLACES

Annwfn

Dyfed

Glyn Cuch

Maentwrog

Pen Llwyn Diarwya

Saith Marchog

Ystrad Tywi

 

[hitmouse]

OK, Hitmouse -- please help with as many of the following names as you wish. Even help with just a few will be welcome. I understand about the "hissed" double-L, or I sort of understand, though I kind of have to guess about what it sounds like. But at any rate I know it's not the same as an ordinary English "L" sound, and that it's not like the double-L in llama.

From The Four Branches

PERSONS

Casnar Wledig Casnar ooledig. Oo as in towit towoo

Cymidei Cymeinfoll
Come-i-day Come-main-voll short i as in idiot

Euroswydd ayrosswith

Gruddieu greetheeaye. Dd as in with

Gwawl as it is spelled. Hard G.

Gwyn Gohoyw Gwin go-hoy-you

Gwrgi Gwastra gorgi goo-astra. Or as in either/or

Hyfaidd Hen huh-vye-th hen

Llasar Llaes Gyfnewid llasar llice guv-newid e as in bed, wid as in width

Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Davies does give pronunciation for Lleu) llay llaw guffess u as in up, ffess as in confess

Teyrnon Twrf Liant tayrnon two-r-non

Unig Glew Ysgwydd. Ee-nig glew usgwith . e as in spend

Wlch Minasgwrn oolch meenasgoorn. Ch is a welsh vowel. Aspirate throat-clearing sound , not as in church.

PLACES

Annwfn. An-ooven

Dyfed Duved. U as in up. Emphasis on the second syllable.

Glyn Cuch glin keech

Maentwrog mine-two-rog

Pen Llwyn Diarwya. Pen lloin dee-ar-oo-ya. Ar short and hard as in Hearth. Ya as in yabby

Saith Marchog. Sigh-th marchog. Th as in thesis

Ystrad Tywi. Uh-strad tuh-wee

 

[hitmouse]

This is the first in a decent series on Welsh pronunciation. All on Youtube. Quite nice because it has narrators from north and south Wales to illustrate the quite distinct differences.
Tells you how to say Ll.

 

[Extollager]

I'm very grateful for your help, Hitmouse, and will check the YouTube link.

If I write a review of the Davies translation for Amazon, may I mention that edition's incomplete pronunciation help and include your information?

 

[Extollager]

Here are names of persons and places, and the name of one game, from the Peredur story, Hitmouse, if you would enjoy giving pronunciations of any of them, since Davies does not do so.

PERSONS

Angharad Law Eurog

Edlym Gleddyf Goch

Gwyar

Hywel son of Emyr Llydaw

Peredur Baladr Hir [Davies gives pronunciation for Peredur]

Urien

PLACES

Caerloyw

Wysg

Ysbidinongyl

GAME

gwyddbwyll

 

[Extollager]

Having just reread "Peredur" -- I'm struck by how this tale belongs at the Märchen end of an Arthurian continuum that has near-historical legend at the other end. Arthur himself contributes almost nothing to the story except to signal to the reader that this is a story of knightly courage, fair ladies, frequent perils -- but in a fairy tale mode of bold vows, highly repetitive heroic tasks, inhuman creatures, serpent and lion, witches, etc. One thing follows another rapidly with almost nothing being made of marvels such as the procedure at the court of the King of Suffering whereby a dead warrior, washed in a tub of warm water and anointed, returns to life; the story hurries on to the next incident. Peredur distinguishes himself in battles in which he easily kills a hundred warriors in a day. In passing we're told that, after one of his exploits, he lives with an empress (in India?) for 14 years, but this has no bearing on his other romantic associations in the story, e.g. with Angharad. Peredur was raised by his mother and other ladies and knew nothing of knighthood till he saw knights for the first time and asked what they were (his mother tells him they're angels, i.e. not human beings, not wanting him to dedicate himself to a life of chivalry). Peredur makes good despite his unpromising beginnings, as one expects of a fairy tale hero. It seems to be a good example of a medieval wonder-tale.

 

[hitmouse]

PERSONS

Angharad Law Eurog Angharad (ang as in hang) law (as in allow) ayrog. Angharad is a common first name in Wales.

Edlym Gleddyf Goch Edlim glethiv goch. The ch as in Bach: no vocal cords involved.

Gwyar Gooyar. the w is closest to two

Hywel son of Emyr Llydaw Huh-wel Emir (as in the Emir of Kuwait) lluhdaw daw as in down

Peredur Baladr Hir [Davies gives pronunciation for Peredur] Peredeer baladr (a short slightly rolled R) Heer (rhymes with deer)

Urien Ear-re-en re as in real, en as in end

PLACES

Caerloyw Car- loy (as in lawyer) oo (see previous)

Wysg Whisk

Ysbidinongyl Us-bid-in-ong-ill ong as in wrong

GAME

gwyddbwyl gwith-boil

 

[Extollager]

Any time you would prefer to stop taking the time on these, please do -- in the meantime, Hitmouse, here are several more. I'm grateful for the help. I'm suspecting that my enjoyment of the Mabinogion has been damped down more than I was aware of, due to the (to me) forbidding look of some of the names.

The Dream of the Emperor Maxen (spelled thus by Davies)

PERSONS

Elen Luyddog

PLACES

Caerfyrddin
Eryri
Y Freni Fawr

Lludd and Llefelys

PERSONS

the Coraniaid
Nyniaw

PLACES

Dinas Ffaraon Dandde

 

[hitmouse]

PERSONS

Elen Luyddog Ellen (as in Degeneres) loy-thog th as in other

PLACES

Caerfyrddin Carveerthin Carmarthen in English. Merlin's fort. Lots of towns called caer-something. Caer is a motte and bailey sort of affair.
Eryri er-i-ree er as in peril, i as in pinch. Snowdonia, a mountain range in north Wales
Y Freni Fawr Uh Vrenny Vawr Vaw sounds like vowel

Lludd and Llefelys LLeeth, Llevelis

PERSONS

the Coraniaid coronee-eyed
Nyniaw none-yow

PLACES

Dinas Ffaraon Dandde Deenas Far-aeon Danth-e

 

[Ian Fortytwo]

This book tells part of the story and many other great myths. Well worth a read.

 

[Extollager]

Your help, Hitmouse, influenced my decision to order a copy of Trioedd Ynys Prydein : The Triads of the Island of Britain by Rachel Bromwich.

Yesterday evening before bedtime I was browsing in a library copy and happened to see an entry about St. Teilo. There’s the triad about the Three Bodies which God created for Teilo. It seems that, after the saint’s death, three churches quarreled about who should get to bury his body. Fasting and prayer were resorted to, and a miracle took place according to which three identical corpses were created, one for each church! But the “redactor of the story leaves no doubt that he favors” Llandaff! I went to bed but started chuckling about this anecdote, and gave up trying to fall asleep. In the early morning hours I was wide awake but probably grinning like a dope. Like I am now as I type.

 

[Extollager]

Hitmouse, you might be interested in Kenneth Morris's suggestions (to American readers) regarding Mabinogion name pronunciations, in his Book of the Three Dragons. I have a very battered library discard copy of the first edition.

 

[Extollager]

 

[hitmouse]

Thats quite interesting.

Llan, as in Llandaff, is very common prefix for Welsh place names, meaning parish, essentially. So Llandaff is the parish of the Taff, the river running through Cardiff (Caerdydd).
Llandeilo is the parish of St Teilo. Lovely place it is too.

 

[Extollager]

I thought Trioedd Ynys Prydein might be pronounced something like Tree-oith (th as in those) In-nis Prud-ine. Zat about right?