The Mabinogion -- Welsh myth and legend

[hitmouse]

Tree-oith ( as you said) uhnis pre-dine (e as in the, not thee)

 

[svalbard]

Look up John Koch. He has numerous papers on Academy.edu and published works. He is a renowned Welsh linguist. I go back to him all the time for research.

 

[Extollager]

I take it the reader here is the Gwyn Jones who with Thomas Jones produced the Everyman's Library edition of the Mabinogion, so his pronunciations must have high credibility. However, I would have expected a name such as Branwen to be pronounced with A as in father rather than, as Jones speaks it, closer to hat.

 

[Extollager]

Look up John Koch. He has numerous papers on Academy.edu and published works. He is a renowned Welsh linguist. I go back to him all the time for research.

Would you like to say something about your research interests?

Koch looks like a super-scholarly guy, pursuing the "genetics" of linguistics. I would assume 99% of what he writes would be way over my head.

 

[svalbard]

Koch is indeed super-scholarly as you say. He places his study of linguists within the history of the time. Gives a historicity to the legends, placing them within their time and how they would have been perceived by the people. For example his work on the Y Godiddon poem examines the etymology of the wording. If I remember correctly he places the poem at the time of it's supposed composition in the early 7th century, although the earliest extant version is I believe 14th century. With that it can help us place the named characters in a historical setting. Now I have not come across any of his work of The Mabinogion, but that is not to say he has not done any.

He is one of a number of scholars I look to in helping in my passion. Sub-Roman Britain 410-600. History, stories, legends, culture.

 

[Extollager]

Svalbard, were there, say, one or two or three books or articles that first produced this passion and that still intrigue you?

 

[svalbard]

Growing up in Ireland during the 70s and 80s we were taught that all things Celtic were Irish. So I was steeped in the mythology of Ireland. It came as quite a shock in my teens when I discovered Lady Charlotte Guest's Mabinogion and that there was another Celtic culture out there.

Then I came across such authors as Henry Treece and particularly Rosemary Sutcliff who wrote of this twilight of Celtic Britain after the Romans left and the Saxons arrived.

Because we know so little, and despite some scholars claims, the archeology is still not that extensive. For example Ken Dark has just discovered the graves of up to 60 native British rulers from this period. It is a period of history that is still writing itself.

 

[Extollager]

Intriguing!

With this talk, there's a reading list. I suppose you'll see some old friends there. What are they missing that you would love to have seen included?

 

[svalbard]

I will give it a listen. Haven't heard that one yet and I am a fan.

Just had a quick listen to the start. Bragg mentions Llwellyn of Gwynedd. In Welsh he is given the epitaph of olaf which means last. The meaning being their Last Leader.

In Norse Olaf means relic or ancestral heritage.

I find that type of thing fascinating.

 

[hitmouse]

I take it the reader here is the Gwyn Jones who with Thomas Jones produced the Everyman's Library edition of the Mabinogion, so his pronunciations must have high credibility. However, I would have expected a name such as Branwen to be pronounced with A as in father rather than, as Jones speaks it, closer to hat.

Branwen as in hat is correct.

 

[Extollager]

Thanks, Hitmouse! Sioned Davies acknowledges that a can be short or long, but because her edition failed to provide pronunciations for all names instead of a stingy handful, you don't know what to think sometimes. For all I know, Davies begged OUP to let her provide more and the very short list is not her fault. But it is a fault of the edition & it ticks me off. The Jones version, which is what I first read, has no helps at all so far as I remember without checking. I don't get this, I don't get why publishers don't help us poor English-speakers more. Oh well.

In contrast, by the way, a Bible I was given as a boy of 11 or so helps with the pronunciation of names every time they appear. Some readers would find that intrusive and annoying. I didn't. And I have never (so far as I remember) felt intimidated by the Old Testament names of people and places. I always wish that lectors would, you know, like know how to pronounce the words before they stand there and stumble around, as some of them do.

 

[THX1138]

I don't have anything to add to the thread, except that it is really fascinating to learn about how far back legends go. And the different reginal/ethnic (if appropriate to say) adaptations just bring a whole new view and some more understanding of these stories for me.
I'm not much into fantasy stories, but stories like these and others had a purpose and reason for the people of the time. And seeing how they change over time, or are forgotten, I find interesting and insightful from both the human and story point of view.
I need to get a copy of the Mabinogion!