A thread to discuss "literary westerns"

[Bick]

Yes, they are excellent movies I think. They are not literary novels though.

 

[Dave]

The general quality of western films might have been higher than that of "novels" though. I'm thinking of High Noon, Shane, Stagecoach and The Searchers but quite likely I'm forgetting all the celluloid pulp produced at the same time. Certainly, more recent westerns such as Unforgiven, High Plains Drifter, Outlaw Josey Wales were more than shootouts with cardboard cutout characters. I prefer A Few Dollars More to The Good the Bad and the Ugly.

I have a question though, which hopefully will take us back to "literary" books. Teresa explained why Last of the Mohicans is not a "Western" since it is really an "Eastern," but I didn't actually mention that book, I mentioned the excellent Dances With Wolves. I still can't see a reason why that wouldn't be classified as a Western so "What actually makes a book a Western?"

I also mentioned Of Men and Mice which involves itinerant agricultural workers rather than ranch hands, but otherwise surely it is Western? Does it have to involve cowboys? Obviously not because that would cut out a large number of post-Civil War, bank robber, outlaw and bounty hunter films. But clearly, there is a distinction between 'outlaws' and the 'public enemy era' of the depression.

So does it need to be set within a certain historical period? Because, in that case, why is Brokeback Mountain a western and why is Every Which Way But Loose not one?

 

[Bick]

Hmm, the definition of a "Western novel", is likely to be as contentious as the definition of a SF novel, but I'm quite sure about it myself, so I'll set it down here (as my opinion): Westerns are novels that depict the stories and adventures of the men and women of the 'old west' of America in the time that it was being settled, i.e. before the time that it had become 'civilized'. I think this constrains the time period (approximately c. 1830 - c. 1900). This period of American history is unique in the western world, I think, as offering the backdrop of almost complete freedom to do as you will, while also providing ample opportunity for danger, violence and heartbreak.

I think any modern story including cowboys wrongly gets the moniker of "western". That is rather like saying anything with a spaceship is SF. But most agree that many space operas (of the Star Wars ilk) don't satisfy the SF definition (not being speculative or possible). Likewise, presence of a cow or two doesn't make it a western. Being set outside the time frame of the settling of the old west rules it out. So, I'd disagree that "Of Mice and Men" is a western - there's nothing very 'western' about it to my mind. "Brokeback Mountain" concerns cowboys, but its not a western as its not set in the right time frame at all. If that was a western, then so was "Dallas". Films such as "Dances with Wolves" are clearly westerns, I'm not sure why there would be debate about that one. "Last of the Mohicans" probably satisfies the criteria, despite being set in the East of the country, as I don't think the exact geography is necessarily important, although it is rather early in time frame which may well rule it out. ("Every which way but loose" is about a truck driver driving around the US with his pet monkey in the 1970's. It's about as close to being a Western as the next random movie. )

 

[AndrewT]

Going back to your original post, I read the Big Sky in 1979 and was very moved by it. It was a bit sad and I disliked the outcome or I must say it would be one of the greatest books I ever read; however the vivid realness of it sticks in my memory to this day. The purity and wild beauty of the unspoiled American west were obviously Guthrie's prime manifesto.
I also read his second book the Way West but was not nearly so impressed by it. I doubt I will read any more by Guthrie but McMurtry is high on my to-read list. I recently found the original hardback Lonesome Dove in a local bookstore in nearly mint condition and grabbed it immediately. I know it is good but how do the sequels compare?

 

[Bick]

Comments on the book I'm currently reading fit here as well as anywhere else, as I've taken some advice from others and got myself a copy of Charles Portis' True Grit. It's so far a terrific book (I'm about half way through). Written from the perspective of a 14 year old girl, its a hoot, and really captivating. The girl is quite a character!

 

[Extollager]

I really liked True Grit as well -- something to relish and to recommend to others! (I've read other things by Portis, too -- he was maybe my best "new-to-me" author of the year a couple or so years ago.)

Madison Jones's Forest of the Night must be mentioned in this thread. Very highly recommended -- an exemplary "literary Western."

https://books.google.com/books?id=-7hnqQQzVCoC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=madison+jones+forest+of+the+night&source=bl&ots=06cxmq6tpd&sig=eH3-MzJnB4rLLEWl0MvybwqqRMQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WiSfVdubNYze-QHw9a3YBQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=madison jones forest of the night&f=false

 

[Vladd67]

The movies changed when Clint Eastwood showed up in those Italian jobs. Suddenly it was cool again, real believable tough guy westerns with great music and a bit of tongue in cheek ala Batman or other stuff around at the time. The graveyard scene in Good Bad n' Ugly is a great one. I've learned to play the little piece that the pocket watch plays, the gold watch/musicbox Ramone stole when he killed Angel Eye's wife.... and so far nobody has drawn down on me.

Actually the watch is from For a Few Dollars More and it is El Indio who took the watch from Colonel Mortimer's sister. Ramon was in A Fistful of Dollars.

 

[J Riff]

Right, right... El Indio, but a lovely little tune in Dmi, terribly sad.

 

[JD Lone Bear]

Michael Blake's Dances With Wolves.

 

[hitmouse]

A Study in Scarlet
The Sign of the Four
Both Sherlock Holmes novels by Arthur Conan Doyle, with significant Western sections. If on can call Holmes literature, that is.

 

[gerard_blalock]

I'm not sure how literary it is, but I really love Owen Wister's The Virginian. I don't necessarily agree with its conclusions, but it asks some interesting questions about how American society can simultaneously value individualism and equality.

 

[Cat's Cradle]

I've recently read Cormac McCarthy's Border Trilogy, and No Country for Old Men. He writes beautifully - to me, stirringly - and his characterizations can be remarkable, and memorable. There is a spirit to these novels that makes it, to me, perfectly reasonable to consider them western in genre, even though their time frame is not that of the classic Old West in America. And as with any great storytelling, their scope goes well beyond the classification of any single genre. Literary? IMO, yes, definitely. Highly recommended.

 

[Vaz]

Well, Cats beat me to it! Came here to recommend Cormac, he was the first author I ever read.

My favourites books of his are The Road & The Crossing, both wonderful.

 

[BAYLOR]

Ive read a few Western , Shane by Jack Shaffer, Riders of the Purple Sage by Zane Grey The Oxbow Incident by Walter van Tilburg Clark . For the most part I liked these books.

 

[2DaveWixon]

I'm not sure how literary it is, but I really love Owen Wister's The Virginian. I don't necessarily agree with its conclusions, but it asks some interesting questions about how American society can simultaneously value individualism and equality.

At least one of my (female) high school English teachers felt that The Virginian was literary enough to be talked about in her class.

 

[2DaveWixon]

Ive read a few Western , Shane by Jack Shaffer, Riders of the Purple Sage by Zane Grey The Oxbow Incident by Walter van Tilburg Clark . For the most part I liked these books.

In the years when I began to read, I quickly became voracious, and could not find enough to read. While I quickly learned that I loved SF, I could not find enough to fill that void, and so I read whatever came to hand -- and learned, from my Dad, to like westerns. In those days I read all three of the books you name above -- actually, buying two of them (in paperback) through a program sponsored by my high school. And, having discovered a company that was selling the complete Zane Gray collection of westerns, I bought, and read, all of those, too...

 

[2DaveWixon]

Hmm, the definition of a "Western novel", is likely to be as contentious as the definition of a SF novel, but I'm quite sure about it myself, so I'll set it down here (as my opinion): Westerns are novels that depict the stories and adventures of the men and women of the 'old west' of America in the time that it was being settled, i.e. before the time that it had become 'civilized'. I think this constrains the time period (approximately c. 1830 - c. 1900). This period of American history is unique in the western world, I think, as offering the backdrop of almost complete freedom to do as you will, while also providing ample opportunity for danger, violence and heartbreak.

I think any modern story including cowboys wrongly gets the moniker of "western". That is rather like saying anything with a spaceship is SF. But most agree that many space operas (of the Star Wars ilk) don't satisfy the SF definition (not being speculative or possible). Likewise, presence of a cow or two doesn't make it a western. Being set outside the time frame of the settling of the old west rules it out. So, I'd disagree that "Of Mice and Men" is a western - there's nothing very 'western' about it to my mind. "Brokeback Mountain" concerns cowboys, but its not a western as its not set in the right time frame at all. If that was a western, then so was "Dallas". Films such as "Dances with Wolves" are clearly westerns, I'm not sure why there would be debate about that one. "Last of the Mohicans" probably satisfies the criteria, despite being set in the East of the country, as I don't think the exact geography is necessarily important, although it is rather early in time frame which may well rule it out. ("Every which way but loose" is about a truck driver driving around the US with his pet monkey in the 1970's. It's about as close to being a Western as the next random movie. )

Largely agree with you on most of the above, I think -- you put a lot into those two paragraphs, though, and so I haven't digested it all yet... (And I apologize that in any discussion of Westerns, I will likely include movies -- I just cannot separate them, sorry.)

I agree with you that "Dallas" and "Brokeback Mountain" don't count as "Westerns." Nor "Of Mice and Men." But yes, "Last of the Mohicans" is indeed a Western, as were the very similar YA books of Joseph Altschuler, set in much the same setting and in the slightly later Revolutionary War period.

(But while I agree that "Every Which Way But Loose" is probably not a "Western," I would argue that it's closer to being such than you indicate -- not because of its setting, but because of the attitude of the hero -- and no, I'm not arguing that we should call it a "Western;" I'm only arguing, at this point, that it's closer than you suggest...)

On the matter of a definition of "Westerns," though: to simply say it's a story that takes place in the area encompassed by the western two thirds of the United States, and within a certain period, does not satisfy. Rather, to me "Western" is a state of mind, something to do with an individual having to rely on himself to protect himself and those around him from certain kinds of lawless behavior generally to be found in a "frontier" setting, in which more conventional governmental institutions/protections, and more conventional codes of ethics, are not available or don't work...

Thus, the Cooper stories, although set in upstate New York and featuring a lot of European colonists, counts as a "Western" -- it's about people (mostly men) having to deal with "frontier" sorts of problems.

Similarly, the John Myers Myers book The Wild Yazoo, although set in 1820's Mississippi, counts as a Western: it features "Western" sorts of problems that arise, at least in part, out of the fact that in the 1820s Mississippi really was "frontier" (as were Kentucky and Tennessee, etc.).

That the "West" moved -- er -- west doesn't really affect the analysis. (In fact, the "West" need not be in the area we know as the "United States" at all: please recall the movie Quigley Down Under (starring Tom Selleck as a western gunfighter who for some reason is hired to come to Australia and use his peculiar skills on behalf of a rich rancher) -- I'm not sure whether that came out of a book or not, but it clearly falls into what I see as the "Western" category).

It's certainly true that not every story involving cowboys is a "Western," as we mean that term (and however we mean that term)...

I suspect that if we ever manage to pin down the meaning off "Western," we will be eligible for Ph.D.'s in English Literature (now there's a misnomer!)

Dave

 

[2DaveWixon]

You beat me to it. I was going to ask who could watch The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly and not be totally captivated by it. One of my favorite movies, if not my favorite.

Actually, that's not my favorite out of that "Man With No Name" Trilogy -- I prefer the first one. But you give me occasion to note that A Fistful of Dollars is a blatant reframing of a Samurai movie done earlier by Kurusawa (as was The Magnificent Seven, clearly adapted from The Seven Samurai).

I would suggest that this indicates that "Western" -- as we use the term now -- is less about the setting and time period than about what I've come to call the "attitude..."

 

[2DaveWixon]

Interesting question why a fan of pulp Space Opera would be averse to a little pulp Horse Opera. I, personally, never feared to dip into a little Louis L'amour; but I guess that would hardly qualify as "literary."

As a fan of L'Amour, I object!
...for one thing, would someone -- Bick, you started this! -- please define what "literary" means in this context?

As a fan of L'Amour, I would suggest that if his books (many of which are basically exciting thrillers that often carry a freight of western (non-fictional) lore) are not "literary," then neither is Heinlein (who is also one of my favorites).

 

[2DaveWixon]

...I can't really speak for libraries at present, but 35 years ago the Western shelves were very busy places in libraries. However, the vast numbers of books being borrowed didn't seem very literary to me. Much of it looked like the same kind of pulp fiction as the pulp SFF that was around, and the Mills and Boon romance. If the genre is maligned then I think that would be the reason, much as it was with SFF at the same time. The main thing I noticed was that almost all of the people reading it were elderly men; men who will no longer be still around to read it today. So if you are looking as to why the genre has become unpopular you need to look much further back to the 1950's and 1960's, and ask why young people back then stopped reading it. And it is certainly true that the genre as a whole has become less popular. Western films have still been made, but there was clearly a spike in the 1940's and 1950's when all those John Wayne films were made, and a gradual fall off through the Spaghetti Westerns to the present day.

Now that clearly wasn't the same with SFF. I can't tell you why but young people were still borrowing that pulp SFF. I was reading it myself. I was also borrowing all the PK Dick anthologies I could find, long before Hollywood discovered him. And there were new young SFF writers too, producing fresh books. I think the whole Star Wars thing in 1977 might be partly responsible, because on the back of that success, SFF films were being produced on a scale they never had done. Then you had things like cyberpunk come along.

Alternative view: one reason the Western faded was precisely because of the rise in popularity of SFF -- Westerns (many of which you characterize as "the same kind of pulp fiction as" SFF) primarily existed for their entertainment value, and I would suggest that the same need for emotionally satisfying (read "thrilling" or "exciting") fiction that was once satisfied by Westerns is now (and has increasingly been) satisfied by SFF...Westerns were the place to find that before Space made its way into the public's imaginations. (Raising a question about what might replace SFF in the future -- but that's not a question for this thread...)

"Entertainment" is itself a literary value, I would suggest...