A thread to discuss "literary westerns"

[2DaveWixon]

The discussion of Steinbeck reminds me of my surprise as a kid when first reading Dashiell Hammett's Continental Op short stories (I think the collection The Big Knockover) some of which included horseback riding in the arroyos around (as I recall) San Francisco, or maybe somewhere between San Fran and L.A. It's hard to believe now, but 100 years ago Southern California was still largely open plain or desert, that L.A. was really desert area -- the water rights issues in the film Chinatown were really issues there.

Anyway, it momentarily took me out of the story when the chubby, gruff Op mounted a horse to investigate a crime. And I think you see some of that Western feel again in Hammett's first novel, Red Harvest. Craig Johnson's recent Walt Longmire mysteries sort of complete the cycle.

And I would similarly point out that a couple of Rex Stout's books (he was the author of the Nero Wolfe series, along with a few other things) also involved western settings.

 

[2DaveWixon]

Walter van Tilburg Clark's The Ox-Bow Incident

Frederick Manfred's Lord Grizzly

Bick, I think Extollager here has pointed you to a very good source of "literary" Westerns -- Manfred, I mean.
Lord Grizzly, which Extollager recommends here, was the first great success of Manfred (and is, by the way, a fictionalization of the story of Hugh Glass, the character portrayed in the recent, and highly-regarded, movie The Revenant.

Manfred's writing ranged widely. He started out in journalism in the Twin Cities, and was an acquaintance of Cliff Simak; he also got involved in politics, playing a role in Hubert H. Humphrey's rise in Minnesota politics -- Humphrey came out of South Dakota, which I suspect might have been part of the connection between them....

Some of Manfred's writing, though, principally the "Buckskin Man" books, was set in what he called "Siouxland," an area generally encompassing SW Minnesota, NW Iowa, NE Nebraska, and much of South Dakota -- so the setting meets your locational requirement.

Other titles I think you might like include The Manly-Hearted Woman and Conquering Horse.

Enjoy!

 

[Bick]

Wow, lot's of posting for me to catch up on there, Dave. Many thanks for your interest and discussion. I don't have time to address all your points and recommendations right now, but a few points that I can talk to straight away:

(i) Its a long time since I saw Every Which Way But Loose - I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that its closer than I might have claimed;

(ii) I agree that the definition of a Western has as much to do with attitude as the setting and so forth. It does have to deal with frontier type issues and non-governmental approaches to lawlessness though, I think. The presence of cowboys with hand guns, sporting ladies and disputes over ranch boundaries helps

(iii) To define 'literary' is a big ask! But I know I raised it, so its a fair question. For the purposes of this thread, can I suggest that 'literary' for me requires a certain quality of writing, combined with a depth of meaning and impact that extends the work in its value beyond simple entertainment. When I read pulp fiction I frequently enjoy the experience and I think it's a perfectly worthwhile way to spend my free time. It doesn't change me or the way I look at the world, however. When I read The Big Sky by Guthrie, it had a literary power that left an indelible mark on me, changing in me (subtly) the way I regard the value of wild places, of personal freedom, of overcoming adversity, etc. It was also beautifully written - an important requirement for me. Pulp/airport/non-literary fiction doesn't/cannot have that sort of impact, and it lacks the depth that suggests its author ever hoped it might have that kind of impact. I've not read Louis L'amour, so I cannot comment whether it fits my definition or not.

 

[2DaveWixon]

Actually, that's not my favorite out of that "Man With No Name" Trilogy -- I prefer the first one. But you give me occasion to note that A Fistful of Dollars is a blatant reframing of a Samurai movie done earlier by Kurusawa (as was The Magnificent Seven, clearly adapted from The Seven Samurai).

Specifically, Fistful was based on the Samurai movie Yojimbo...

 

[Bick]

I just read Walter Van Tilburg Clarke's The Ox-bow Incident. Terrific book, and most certainly a literary western. Its thesis and examination of the nature of evil, pack mentality, justice and democracy is very well handled and illuminating. Clarke is telling us that democracy and the majority rule of law is nothing without strong individualism that insists it's followed humanely. Highly recommended.

 

[The Bluestocking]

Not a fan of Westerns but I am a fan of Elmore Leonard and he wrote a few Westerns in the early part of his career (not sure how literary they are though):

http://www.elmoreleonard.com/index.php?/weblog/more/the_westerns_novels_of_elmore_leonard
http://www.elmoreleonard.com/index.php?/weblog/more/the_westerns_novels_of_elmore_leonard
And in 2009, he was honoured by the Western Writers of America for his lifetime contribution to the genre:

Western writers honour Elmore Leonard

 

[Cathbad]

Literary what!?

 

[Bick]

Literary what!?

Westerns. The clue is in there somewhere...

 

[Cat's Cradle]

I should thank you, Bick, for this thread. I have The Big Sky, by Guthrie queued on my Kindle now. Looking forward to starting it very soon.

Just a little warning in case anyone is thinking of purchasing Guthrie's book at Amazon...Amazon sells another western with a similar title Big Sky, by a man named Nathan Blackford. I bought this last year in a moment of careless consumerism, while looking for the Guthrie book. This other book wasn't bad (and what a name for an author of westerns - 'Nathan Blackford'), but it's not the classic I'm expecting the Guthrie novel to be.

I'll also be reading Lonesome Dove soon (a very long book; the mini-series was amazing)...and as always: give Cormac McCarthy's westerns a chance!!

 

[Bick]

I should thank you, Bick, for this thread. I have The Big Sky, by Guthrie queued on my Kindle now. Looking forward to starting it very soon.

Just a little warning in case anyone is thinking of purchasing Guthrie's book at Amazon...Amazon sells another western with a similar title Big Sky, by a man named Nathan Blackford. I bought this last year in a moment of careless consumerism, while looking for the Guthrie book. This other book wasn't bad (and what a name for an author of westerns - 'Nathan Blackford'), but it's not the classic I'm expecting the Guthrie novel to be.

I'll also be reading Lonesome Dove soon (a very long book; the mini-series was amazing)...and as always: give Cormac McCarthy's westerns a chance!!

I hope you enjoy The Big Sky, CC. Most folk who have read it tend to consider it even better than its sequel The Way West, which won the Pulitzer. I'm one of them I guess.

 

[Cathbad]

Westerns. The clue is in there somewhere...

No offense meant. After a couple Louis L'Amour titles, I begged off westerns.

 

[Danny McG]

It's defining 'literary' that causes the problem. One man's classic is another man's pulp (man meaning person of course) and a few decades back I was really into the Dusty Fog series by JT Edson. To me at the time they epitomised literary reading, they mentioned real times and events and had mammoth footnotes on a lot of pages to explain these things.
His later series of 'modern day' westerns about the highly trained Sheriff of Rockabye County (who wore a customised combat rig and could draw, fire and hit his target in quarter of a second) was pure pulp but still very enjoyable as light escapist reading

 

[Bick]

It's defining 'literary' that causes the problem. One man's classic is another man's pulp (man meaning person of course) and a few decades back I was really into the Dusty Fog series by JT Edson. To me at the time they epitomised literary reading, they mentioned real times and events and had mammoth footnotes on a lot of pages to explain these things.
His later series of 'modern day' westerns about the highly trained Sheriff of Rockabye County (who wore a customised combat rig and could draw, fire and hit his target in quarter of a second) was pure pulp but still very enjoyable as light escapist reading

First off, you suggest there is a problem, but I'm not sure there is. Secondly, I think 'classic' is (a) a bit overused and (b) not equivalent to literary. A 'pulp classic', almost by definition will not be 'literary'. Edson (to my mind) didn't write literary fiction. If you search the web for the finest western novels, you will find no references to Edson in any list, which probably tells us something.

 

[Danny McG]

Yeah, fair enough, as I said a few decades back was when I was reading 'em and, to my late teen mind, they seemed very worthy and literary books at the time. I genuinely thought then that I was well read and 'bookish' because I'd made my way through the series!

 

[Vince W]

No offense meant. After a couple Louis L'Amour titles, I begged off westerns.

You aren't the only one to dislike L'Amour. I've read many westerns but I could never enjoy L'Amour. Like reading about paint drying his books.

 

[2DaveWixon]

Yeah, fair enough, as I said a few decades back was when I was reading 'em and, to my late teen mind, they seemed very worthy and literary books at the time. I genuinely thought then that I was well read and 'bookish' because I'd made my way through the series!

And of course, the same applies to a lot of SFF...

 

[soulsinging]

Anyway, it momentarily took me out of the story when the chubby, gruff Op mounted a horse to investigate a crime. And I think you see some of that Western feel again in Hammett's first novel, Red Harvest. Craig Johnson's recent Walt Longmire mysteries sort of complete the cycle.

Specifically, Fistful was based on the Samurai movie Yojimbo...

To link these two western tangents, Yojimbo is often said to have been a loose adaptation of... Red Harvest! Might be why Fistful was always my favorite of the trilogy as well.

I'll add my support for Lonesome Dove here. A real epic, and has some of the most memorable scenes in literature for me. I'll never forget the snake crossing. It's one of my favorite novels, period.

 

[KiraAnn]

I’ve seen several express good feelings about Lonesome Dove but I have to excuse myself in that one. It really is a fictionalization of Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight and their relationship even to the point of Goodnight dropping everything to go get Loving’s body and take it home to south Texas.

And it’s not even attributed. That’s what gets me.

 

[AndrewT]

I’ve seen several express good feelings about Lonesome Dove but I have to excuse myself in that one. It really is a fictionalization of Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight and their relationship even to the point of Goodnight dropping everything to go get Loving’s body and take it home to south Texas.

And it’s not even attributed. That’s what gets me.

I am pretty sure that the whole book is not based on their relationship. Just the idea of the body being moved at great difficulty as a tribute to the supreme loyalty between these men in the covenantal fulfillment of the dying man's wish was copied or based on historical fact. The rest of the book is completely original. There's no need to attribute something like that. Readers that know about it understand.

 

[tegeus-Cromis]

I'd say these ones definitely qualify;

Charles Portis, True Grit
Jack Schaefer, Shane
Oakley Hall, Warlock
John Williams, Butcher's Crossing
David Markson, The Ballad of Dingus Magee (this one happens to be both a western and a comic novel. It's hilarious! From a writer who went on to be considered one of the great American avant-garde novelists.)