cryogenics, corpsicles and mind uploads: a discussion "reincarnation" in Science Fiction

We might be a long way from being able to Quantify our level of consciousness.
::
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10799.full
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/
What Is it Like to Be a Bat? Thomas Nagel,
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/ahyvarin/teaching/niseminar4/Nagel_WhatIsItLikeToBeABat.pdf

::Though some parts might appear quantifiable there is a dynamic element that would require a sort of twisted overlap of quantifiable material that come close but don't address the system of entropy that might be described as the subjective part of consciousness, which so far has defied any ability to quantify it.
 
All the SF ideas and themes mentioned above are essentially thought experiments, and they certainly have their uses. But you have to be careful with thought experiments. Maxwell's Demon is an example of a thought experiment that initially seems impossible to argue against, until you realise the hidden assumption (in this case about the demon itself) that underlies the thought experiment. Once you see that, the thought experiment becomes something that can't exist in the real world. We do learn a lot from such exercises, of course.

In my opinion, the hidden assumption in much of this thread is a kind of separability between the brain and the activity of the brain, however you want to define that activity (as tinkerdan has above). Although it's true to say that the brain is essentially chemicals and wiring, controlling an artificial limb by the brain is not an example of direct connection. The brain is interfacing with the limb across a boundary. The model of the world it represents is altered, but not "melded with" - and, just as important, that model understands that the artificial limb is artificial.

I do think we have to be extremely careful with the computer/software/hardware analogies so frequently used in these discussions. To say that consciousness is software running on the hardware of the brain is in my opinion utterly off the mark. An analogy would be: time, e.g. the notions of minutes or hours, is the software running off the hardware of a wristwatch, but "time" is not an entity that is conscious, as we are. Consciousness is an emergent property that cannot be predicted from pre-existing individual components. We are conscious because the models of reality (minds) we use to survive also include other human beings, who we understand through the process of understanding, and indeed experiencing, ourselves.

I think a key factor here is "the seperability between the brain and activity of the brain". Also it is safe to assume we are talking soft SF in most cases here so everything has to be seasoned with a pinch of salt.

If I was comparing the human mind to technology I would posit consciousness to be most similar to firmware. In that the software is dedicated to the hardware and they are mutually co-dependant.

On the topic of consciousness I found the idea of "Group minds", in Stapledons Star Maker to be much more difficult to come to terms with than the AI models in Ancillary Justice.
 
Doubtlessly some of you are aware that there are actual companies that offer the freezing of a corpse in the hope that at some point the damages could be fixed and that the dead could be brought back to life.
Indeed. I froze my mother a little under a year ago with Ettinger's original organization in Michigan, now known as the Cryonics Institute. There are at least 3 more groups.

. . . are they employed as control devices used for social engineering and economic dominance, much like the religious concept, are they primarily used for something completely different?
See Niven's story entitled, I believe "Rammer", for a control scenario.

Sure you might say that once we conquer death then we will have the answer to those; but how can you be so sure?
See "Engines of Creation" by Eric Drexler. Really, I'm surprised that book isn't mentioned in this thread. IMO it is one of the 2 most important books of the last century, not counting nasty ones like Mein Kampf or the little red one. It isn't just about nanotech. Drexler is a very serious thinker.

To say that consciousness is software running on the hardware of the brain is in my opinion utterly off the mark. An analogy would be: time, e.g. the notions of minutes or hours, is the software running off the hardware of a wristwatch, but "time" is not an entity that is conscious, as we are.
A totally unsound analogy IMO. Time exists independently of wrist watches for one thing. I rather suspect that resistance to the idea that the mind is comparable to a program springs from the same psychology that vitalism does, not that I'm accusing you of that. But I can't see any other view of the matter that doesn't boil down to mysticism. I don't pretend certainty about exactly how the program is encoded in the physical substrate of the brain, but either it is, or it is magic. I don't see any alternatives. Assuming it's NOT magic, there is no reason the logic and data can't be reproduced in another substrate. Complaining that the result isn't "you" is just a nomenclatural assertion making arbitrary qualities, such as uniqueness, or protein in water chemistry, a part of your definition of "you".

1. Population: This is twofold: a) if no one dies (other than accidentally) then we would instantly have a population boom b) if we either freeze all of a woman's ova after puberty or if we manage to persuade a woman's body to keep producing eggs (would women really want to continue menstruating ad infinitum?) then the population problem increases by an order of magnitude. The difficulty is that just because we have immortality we're not suddenly going to lose the urge to procreate.
Now that is an interesting one. Imagine a population in which all people live to be 100 years old and die. What is the maximum net reproduction rate that eventually leads to a stable population? Now imagine there is no death and ask the same question. Reason it out. The answer may surprise you.

What is dead? . . . I don't even want to think what our cavemen ancestors thought on the subject.
There is a tribal group, African if remember correctly, that traditionally believed that you shouldn't consider a person clearly dead until the buzzards begin to eat them. Which strikes me as laudably conservative.

First grow back a tail, maybe work on specialized hair or fur throughout the body. Maybe cats ears and eyes.
I'll take another pair of arms, please. I want to be a Thark when I grow up.

One of the problems in medical science is that the obvious approaches to reduce the effects of aging (growth factor augmentation, anti-apoptotic agents, etc) all tend to increase the prevalence of cancers.
Only SOME of the obvious approaches. For example, increasing endogenous production of enzymes like the SODs, catalase, glutathione reductase, etc. is more likely to have the opposite effect.
Why would there ever have been an evolutionary advantage to long life?
That touches an important point in the evolutionary theory of aging. The obvious answer is because you get more chances to reproduce. And although selection takes place on multiple levels, including genes and genera, the level of the individual is still predomninant. Basically, organisms tend to accumulate maintenance genes until there is no more payoff for doing so. Oversimplifying just a tad (and you can see the refinements needed pretty easily), that happens when the collection they have is good enough to keep them healthy longer than they are likely to live anyway. In a state of nature, every day you roll the dice, and sooner or later, somebody eats you, or the plague gets you, or a tree falls on your head. There is actual evidence for this, not just a priori reasoning. There is a population of raccoons on an island where they haven't had natural enemies for a long, long time. They don't age as nearly as fast as mainland coons.

. . . it might be unsettling if every time your children look in the mirror they find you staring out at them . . .
Especially if the mirror were on the ceiling.

But if 1,000 copies are made are all of them YOU?
At that instant, sure. But I'd suggest we all take new names, cause our "younesses" are rapidly diverging. That divergence isn't any different from my divergence from yesterday's me. It's just like the comparable problems imagined in time travel stories.

If you like the concept of a spaceship with a controlling consciousness there are plenty of examples, from Anne McCaffrey's brainship books to the game System Shock.
H. Beam Piper did some very nice, funny stories with this. Baen has collected them. The something-something Patrol. Galactic Patrol maybe? Smart ships that recruit their own crews.
 
Assuming it's NOT magic, there is no reason the logic and data can't be reproduced in another substrate. Complaining that the result isn't "you" is just a nomenclatural assertion making arbitrary qualities, such as uniqueness, or protein in water chemistry, a part of your definition of "you".

But if you made a copy of you in this way, would you experience both beings (your original body/mind and the new one) at the same time? I think it much more likely that Mk2 would have its own awareness, which wouldn't be shared by the original you. Which means that if the original you died, your awareness would cease; it wouldn't then leap into Mk2.

Mk2 would experience itself as being a continuation of you (from the point of its creation), but you would experience nothing. This method wouldn't be "immortality" as far as the original you is concerned. So the data-upload or whatever wouldn't fit the definition of "me" as I apply the term, even if all memories etc were perfectly reproduced.
 
But if you made a copy of you in this way, would you experience both beings (your original body/mind and the new one) at the same time?
Neither "you" would, but each "you" would experience 1 self, so, yes, 2 "you"s, collectively, would experience both, 1 each. I don't think either "you"'s sense of identity is more valid. At T-0 they are identical. Immediately they cease to be identical as they accumulate new experience. And each will designate itself as "I" and the other as . . . um, I really should started this with a different pronoun . . . well "the other guy".

But my point really is that the equation of "immaterial" with non-existent or magical or mystical is false. Pi is immaterial. i is immaterial. Programs are immaterial. The English language is immaterial. But neither are non-existent, nor mystical, nor magical. I think this matter-centrism if you will, is an over-reaction to the supersticions of religion. It's almost like a child discovering that the books they've been reading are fiction; therefore books are all a pack of lies.
 
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Just reading Peter Hamilton's "Pandora's Star" for 2nd time. It's quite good, but IMO the rejuv, reincarnations/resurrection/clone, memory inserts, edits, backups are just Magic, not SF, more easy to swallow if they suddenly had "Wizards" appearing (via evolution, aliens, or revealing they were hidden) The excellent story would be even better without them!

Curiously a lot of that is similar to Iain M. Banks, though I'd forgotten "Pandora's Star" when reading "Look to Windward". I since obtained "Consider Phlebas", but not read it yet.

Similarly the AI / SI / RI seem pointless in Iain M. Banks & Peter Hamilton. You might as well have a wizard put a brain in a jar.

I don't regard AI, reincarnations/resurrection/clone, memory stuff and most "nanotech" as portrayed since 1980s as SF, but an egotistical wish for humans to be as gods, and more suited to Fantasy genre than SF. I've got and read* far more fantasy than SF, so I recognise the difference.

Personally I'm aware both SF and Fantasy is fiction. I don't expect either to reflect the real world, but I dislike Magic disguised as Science. I do like books with Magic.

[*For about 50 years]
 
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Now that is an interesting one. Imagine a population in which all people live to be 100 years old and die. What is the maximum net reproduction rate that eventually leads to a stable population? Now imagine there is no death and ask the same question. Reason it out. The answer may surprise you.
Okay I'll bite; I'm not sure what you are getting at here?

That touches an important point in the evolutionary theory of aging. The obvious answer is because you get more chances to reproduce. And although selection takes place on multiple levels, including genes and genera, the level of the individual is still predomninant. Basically, organisms tend to accumulate maintenance genes until there is no more payoff for doing so. Oversimplifying just a tad (and you can see the refinements needed pretty easily), that happens when the collection they have is good enough to keep them healthy longer than they are likely to live anyway. In a state of nature, every day you roll the dice, and sooner or later, somebody eats you, or the plague gets you, or a tree falls on your head. There is actual evidence for this, not just a priori reasoning. There is a population of raccoons on an island where they haven't had natural enemies for a long, long time. They don't age as nearly as fast as mainland coons.
But that is not the case; at least not for women.

Another problem with the body is that some parts would have to be replaced with artificial parts: teeth wear out eventually and aren't replaced; all the joints of our bodies wear out. Neither of these are cases of simple cell death that could be fixed genetically; these are simple cases of accumulated wear and tear.
 
teeth wear out eventually and aren't replaced; all the joints of our bodies wear out. Neither of these are cases of simple cell death that could be fixed genetically; these are simple cases of accumulated wear and tear.
You'd need to edit our genes. Guinea pigs (which are not quite rodents), many rodents and other creatures don't have the same problem with teeth (they have a different one if they don't gnaw). Similarly you'd have to edit how our bones are repaired. A break is repaired but a joint is tricky.

I was reading comments by a geneticist, we can now sequence genes, analyse DNA, RNA, Mitochondria etc. We can do cut & paste editing to an extent. The recent identification of what gene results in red beak in one bird and red feathers on a canary (crossed with finches originally) led to identifying whic gene gives the enzyme for the bird to turn yellow coloured stuff it eats into red / crimson. The interesting thing is we have still no idea how to design a gene or know what a gene is for just by examining it (without creating or testing a selection of creatures with & without it than normally have the opposite state as in the two bird studies). We are like kids with one of those plug in Electronics kits (Philips started them in 1960s, many still exist) one with the paper templates showing where parts go to make "Morse code oscillator", "AM radio" etc, without any idea how the individual parts work or how to create a new design with same parts not in in the instructions, or why one combination works as a radio and the other makes a musical note.
 
But that is not the case; at least not for women.
Fertility also falls off for men, but not in the same way.
Most creatures can reproduce till they die. Some die BECAUSE they have reproduced, others live for years non-sexually then metamorphise and have a day to do it (Woodworm beetles, Mayflies). Others can take more time (butterflies, some amphibians).

As people get richer and better off they have less children, to point were the "nation" isn't self sustaining (which needs about 3 children because not all offspring mate and produce offspring). One aspect of this seems to be selfishness. As long as people are not actually immortal, the population size would stabilise and start to decrease if everyone had a life of luxury. Eventually people would be paid to have children (did this effectively happen already in Germany and Japan?).
 
Well the fertility problem could be fixed with freezing eggs I guess - are all female mammals born with a fixed number of eggs or is it just humans? And as we do already produce a second set of teeth I imagine genetic editing to produce additional sets wouldn't be too unlikely. But I struggle to see how bone could keep repairing the joints whilst they are still in use. But maybe I just don't have enough faith in what genetics might be able to achieve.
 
But I struggle to see how bone could keep repairing the joints whilst they are still in use. But maybe I just don't have enough faith in what genetics might be able to achieve.
Yes, that does sound difficult.
It's not a question of faith, but lack of knowledge, we can edit by an idiot level delete,copy & paste, but we can't design genes yet, nor know what a gene does without identifying the effect of addition/deletion of it in new offspring.

Well the fertility problem could be fixed with freezing eggs I guess
If people lived for hundreds of years would many want to have children "disrupting" their lifestyle?
Yes, obviously some as oldest now is 70, but why would most want to? Desire to have babies seems to fall with age and wealth, hence declining birth rates in some countries. Less people having babies, who marry later is more deliberate than an actual drop in real fertility.

There is no real fertility problem related to age in a sense in that it's often selfishness or lack of a mate or other fertility issue that some women don't have a child before menopause. There are other fertility problems, at the most extreme, some women have no womb (Now there have been successful temporary transplants, it's removed after baby's birth) or even no eggs. The great mystery is why women actually want to have a second child naturally. I've been there and seen the process six times. Women are obviously very brave, possibly there is a reason for very high rate of "CS" in some countries. Certainly women past the menopause HAVE had babies with implanted egg(s), sometime their own, sometimes from another (and even in one case allegedly stolen!) up to age 70 now is the record. A minority of women want to have babies when much older than 40s and most only object to the symptoms of menopause apart from infertility.
 
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But that is not the case; at least not for women.
My bad, I didn't word that well.

By "The obvious answer"
I didn't mean:
"The answer, which is obvious,"
which would imply exclusivity,

but rather:
"The (obvious answer)"
intended to imply there are probably other, less obvious answers.

Anyway, the (obvious answer) still applies to males -- and genes that are conserved because of their benefit in males, will normally still affect females. Only if there is some positive drawback in the opposite gender is there any reason for them to become sex linked.

Menopause is NOT a common phenomenon. Clear examples are only known in 2 other animals, both cetaceans, and some claim the chimpanzee. Notably, they are all long lived, brainy, social species. The borderline example, the chimpanzee, is the least long lived of the 4. Most would say they are NOT the least brainy, but I wonder if that might be primate prejudice. I doubt this is coincidence. Maybe it is similar to the hypothetical kind of kinship selection that some biologists have suggested might make a certain frequency of genes conducive to homosexuality an Evolutionarily Stable Strategy or ESS, by increasing the ratio of adults to children.

It would be interesting to know quantitatively how lifespan has evolved in different lineages. Possibly these species exhibiting menopause have lengthened their lifespans fairly recently, accumulating these genes for kinship selection reasons, but, if the environment remained stable long enough, maybe the reproductive apparatus would catch up. Maybe this kind of leapfrogging process is why brains and longevity are correlated when you compare species.

Okay I'll bite; I'm not sure what you are getting at here?
I'll return to this later. But I should mention that I chose that expression, net reproduction rate, because it has a precise, quantifiable, standardized meaning. For a definition see:
Net reproduction rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Menopause is NOT a common phenomenon.
It is for humans...

It would be interesting to know quantitatively how lifespan has evolved in different lineages. Possibly these species exhibiting menopause have lengthened their lifespans fairly recently, accumulating these genes for kinship selection reasons, but, if the environment remained stable long enough, maybe the reproductive apparatus would catch up. Maybe this kind of leapfrogging process is why brains and longevity are correlated when you compare species.
There is a lot of speculation and unconnected dots in that.
 
My bad, I didn't word that well.

By "The obvious answer"
I didn't mean:
"The answer, which is obvious,"
which would imply exclusivity,

but rather:
"The (obvious answer)"
intended to imply there are probably other, less obvious answers.

Anyway, the (obvious answer) still applies to males -- and genes that are conserved because of their benefit in males, will normally still affect females. Only if there is some positive drawback in the opposite gender is there any reason for them to become sex linked.

Menopause is NOT a common phenomenon. Clear examples are only known in 2 other animals, both cetaceans, and some claim the chimpanzee. Notably, they are all long lived, brainy, social species. The borderline example, the chimpanzee, is the least long lived of the 4. Most would say they are NOT the least brainy, but I wonder if that might be primate prejudice. I doubt this is coincidence. Maybe it is similar to the hypothetical kind of kinship selection that some biologists have suggested might make a certain frequency of genes conducive to homosexuality an Evolutionarily Stable Strategy or ESS, by increasing the ratio of adults to children.

It would be interesting to know quantitatively how lifespan has evolved in different lineages. Possibly these species exhibiting menopause have lengthened their lifespans fairly recently, accumulating these genes for kinship selection reasons, but, if the environment remained stable long enough, maybe the reproductive apparatus would catch up. Maybe this kind of leapfrogging process is why brains and longevity are correlated when you compare species.
Not sure if that quite answers my question. Is the menopause purely driven by running out of eggs? So do the species that do not have the menopause continue to generate new eggs throughout their life. I don't mean continue to ovulate, I mean to actually create within their bodies genuinely new eggs. Or, like humans, are they born with a fixed number and simply don't (currently) live long enough to exhaust that supply? The distinction is potentially important as, if it's the former, it would be a more radical genetic change to have humans continually creating new eggs, whereas if it's the latter then the genetic coding (once pinned down) could be borrowed from those species making such a change easier or at least more plausible in humans.
I'll return to this later. But I should mention that I chose that expression, net reproduction rate, because it has a precise, quantifiable, standardized meaning. For a definition see:
Net reproduction rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Based on that then if all death (even through illness or accident) was eliminated the net reproduction rate would have to be 0 anything else would create a steady increase in population.
 
Very good, thoughtful, interesting questions.
Is the menopause purely driven by running out of eggs?
I don't think so. But I may be totally wrong. Interesting idea. I'll be looking it up.

So do the species that do not have the menopause continue to generate new eggs throughout their life. I don't mean continue to ovulate, I mean to actually create within their bodies genuinely new eggs. Or, like humans, are they born with a fixed number and simply don't (currently) live long enough to exhaust that supply?
A VERY interesting question. The second would be my guess if I had to bet, but I really have no idea. That I'll definitely be looking up.

The distinction is potentially important . . .
I agree. I'm not sure we think so for the same reason, but I definitely agree.

if it's the former, it would be a more radical genetic change to have humans continually creating new eggs, whereas if it's the latter then the genetic coding (once pinned down) could be borrowed from those species making such a change easier or at least more plausible in humans.
I believe you've reversed former and latter, saying the opposite of what you intended. Or i may just be stupid with fatigue and not understanding you. Assuming you've reversed it, yes, I agree.

Based on that then if all death (even through illness or accident) was eliminated the net reproduction rate would have to be 0 anything else would create a steady increase in population.
No. 0 would certainly do it, but it isn't the maximum. Consider the definition. Parse my question carefully considering ALL the words. I just re-read it and I don't think any of the wording is really tricky (but I'm on an Agatha Christie jag, so my judgement may be distorted). It is the IDEA that is a little tricky. Use pencil and paper. Think in terms of generation 0, generation 1, etc. I'll get back to you. Oh, and remember, there are no fractional children. Fractious, maybe, but not fractional. Now I must sleep.
 
I believe you've reversed former and latter, saying the opposite of what you intended. Or i may just be stupid with fatigue and not understanding you. Assuming you've reversed it, yes, I agree.
Yeah I'm not sure how clear I put my point on that one. What I was trying to get at is that if all mammals are born with a fixed number of eggs then genetically changing that behaviour could be quite hard. Whereas if there are mammals that genuinely create new eggs during their lives then that behaviour may be 'borrowable' genetically making it a more realistic (easier) possibility. Hope that's clearer! :)
No. 0 would certainly do it, but it isn't the maximum. Consider the definition. Parse my question carefully considering ALL the words. I just re-read it and I don't think any of the wording is really tricky (but I'm on an Agatha Christie jag, so my judgement may be distorted). It is the IDEA that is a little tricky. Use pencil and paper. Think in terms of generation 0, generation 1, etc. I'll get back to you. Oh, and remember, there are no fractional children. Fractious, maybe, but not fractional. Now I must sleep.
Maybe I'm looking at this too simply - But it seems to me that no matter how long people live, if they eventually die then they can only have one child per person. Which will eventually result in a stable population. How big that population is depends upon just how long the lifespan is and at what point in that lifespan they have that one child. If no one ever dies then having any children at all will result in a steadily increasing in population.
 
But it seems to me that no matter how long people live, if they eventually die then they can only have one child per person.
Um, two unless you are giving men wombs*. Also more than two as not all women will have children** and some might die before being able to reproduce (due to accident & murder & manslaughter even if you eradicate disease).

I agree, only immortality is problem vs a lifetime of 50 years or 5000 years, eventually if births only equal deaths.

[*Or abolishing males, which is technically possible and probably easier]
[**Either by choice, (maybe not finding "Mr Right to have sex with", not every woman that wants to have child wants to be married or wants any random 'father' for it, which isn't exactly the same as choice) or possibly unsolved infertility problems]
 
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