5.10 Mother's Mercy

[Wo7f]

I'm shocked and a little confused.

Most Shocking - Jon Snow. What?!!

The witch got her prediction wrong. Should have died with the rest of them. COWARD!

Most confusing - Did Reek and Sansa jump to their death? Or fall to safety?

So who is dead on the floor before Arya?
Who is this seemingly blue, new guard that carried Cersi?

 

[willwallace]

I'm shocked and a little confused.

Most Shocking - Jon Snow. What?!! Jon Snow seems more definitely dead on the show than how I read it in the book.

The witch got her prediction wrong. Should have died with the rest of them. COWARD! I hate that witch. And the Lord of the Light is a fickle s.o.b.

Most confusing - Did Reek and Sansa jump to their death? Or fall to safety? Reek and Sansa should be fine, they know how deep the snow is. Probably piles up close to the wall.

So who is dead on the floor before Arya? Don't know who that could be dead in front of Arya. Maybe no-one?

Who is this seemingly blue, new guard that carried Cersi? The Revived Mountain, I would say.

 

[Dave]

I have the same questions.

I was genuinely surprised by Jon Snow. I thought, here was a character that would last until the very end. I know nothing! They do need to leave some characters until the end or there is going to be no one left except white walkers vs remaining dragons.

If the Lord of Light's magic only works sometimes then it is as much use as rolling a die.

What is Davos going to do? He has no allegiances now. He doesn't know how the princess died and is unlikely to find out. He is a smuggler, not a commander and the Black Watch would be my least favourite place to be in Westeros. In fact, why did the witch go there? It seemed to be further away from Winterfell in Season 1 than it does now. Now it is less than half a days ride.

Reek and Sansa - I was thinking of a moat. Clearly, they weren't trying suicide, so there must have been a plan, even if hastily thought up. I was a bit confused why that particular point caused Reek to help Sansa when he had ample opportunity before but didn't.

Anya - no idea what's going on there. If the book describes it better, could someone explain because the TV series doesn't?

The Mountain - I hadn't thought of that but it seems logical. Has he lost his voice in his fall?

 

[Warren_Paul]

So the "Break the Internet" comment turned out to be exactly what every book reader knew it would be. Jon's death. But before anybody freaks out more, a couple facts that TV viewers can easily discover by reading news going around. A) Kit Harington was given a pay rise during the production of Season 5. B) He's signed a contract for seasons 6 & 7. Both of those should tell everybody that he's still going to be around in some form or another.

So now TV readers can join book readers in the speculation of how their "supposedly safe cannot be touched hero" is going to walk away from this cliffhanger.

The problem with TV compared to the book is that the book can show hints in the narrative. If TV tried to show those hints, it would give too much away, which is why they changed the Danaerys flashback scene in the House of the Undying all that time back. Because it would give too much away. Of course, they are trying to control things further by not telling the cast really what is going on, and making Kit Harington supposedly believe he is done, but the accountants are well aware of the situation... Of course, Kit Harington could also be deliberately telling half-truths to control the "rumours" himself, or at request of D&D -- He is actually dead, so he isn't lying.

The other problem with it is D&D once again not pulling the most important points from the book, and changing characters without really understanding their underlying motivations. They have really gone against the book in regards to Millisandre and her "predictions." None of the stuff she said to Jon remained present in the show, which just serves to turn the TV viewers even more against her. So many characters would be seen differently if they really understood them.

Of course, it's very possible that D&D will decide to keep Jon dead and completely change the ending of the story from what we suspect GRRM intends... That would be the real break the internet moment...


Interesting how they didn't confirm Stannis's death. I'm almost certain Brienne didn't kill him, which leaves his story arc exactly how it ended in the book. Nobody has any idea of his fate.

I would say Myrcella's death was unexpected. But she is such an insignificant character in both the show and the books that it really had very little impact and just seemed a weak, unreasonable revenge plot device.

@willwallace is right about the new kingsguard, we've known this for awhile that they were doing some weird experiment with what remained of Gregor Clegane. I'm guessing what they've done is something similar to how white walkers came into existence.

I'm not sure that I approve of how they altered the walk of shame scene. It was almost entirely faithful to the book until they got right to the end and dulled down the moment she broke. In the books she covered herself and started running if I remember correctly, then collapsed outside the red keep, and was carried inside by Zombie Mountain. To me, if they'd done it the way it was in the book, it would have had much more impact and implication on where she will go from here.

 

[Dave]

So, what you are inferring is that Jon Snow is going to do an Obi Wan Kenobi on us? And that nothing else that we think we know is certain. I agree that the walk of shame scene would be more dramatic that way. I'm going to need more information about 'Zombie Mountain' next season. There has been no indication before that that motley crew left in Kings Landing could perform such powerful magic.

 

[Warren_Paul]

So, what you are inferring is that Jon Snow is going to do an Obi Wan Kenobi on us?

Nobody really knows. There's a lot of theories going on but nothing confirmed. There is a real possibility though that he might well be dead and done, gone for good. I don't believe that though.

 

[Koopa]

the Sansa and Reek thing, seemed badly visualised. Most likely the show writers wanted it to feel like a cliffhanger as well, making you wodner if Sansa and reek still live. In the books Fake Arya and Reek survive their jump.

As for melisandre, their is quite a bit of speculalation that she'll play a part in Jon surviving that ordeal in some fashion. Like Jon wargs into ghost, melisandre saves the body a la Thoros of Myr, and his mind unlike Beric Dondarrion isn't altered cause that part of him got to stay in Ghost till Jon's body is healthy again or something like that. So her returning to Castle Black right before Jon Snow gets stabbed will probably be added fuel to those who support those theories.

I want to believe Jon Snow lives. Cause for one Ghost still lives. Plus we've followed his POV for 5 books already, in which we see Jon growing into his potential albeit screwing up very hard at the hand (for reasons not shown in the tv series). His basically close to reaching the very potential he was groomed for. For him to be killed off seems pointless, unless grrm's wants to make his story arc, the story arc of failure. The hope/promise that didn't deliver.

There is also quite abit of speculation on the outcome in the battle between Stannis and the Boltons. In the books you're left wondering. My guess is after seeing the show is that Stannis basically did his part and will be removed by GRRM in the future. However it won't happen like it did on the tv show. More like the northern alliance not shown in the show but somehow represented by Brienne will come to the forefront. With a possible alliance being made between them and Asha Greyjoy.

There are quite a bit of question the book readers are left pondering. Myrcella for one. She was pegged at the one to wear a golden shroud, but somehow survive. In the show she's shown to be poisoned and possible dead... .

 

[willwallace]

They haven't shown how much body shifting was going on in the show versus the books, which seemed to create more possibilities than there are now.

 

[svalbard]

It was Jon's decision in the books to march on Winterfell that tips the Watch into killing him. In the books Shireen is still at Castle Black and I think Mel is going to sacrifice her to bring Jon back to life.

I thought Stephen Dillane was excellent as Stannis and really got across how broken he was at the end.

 

[Culhwch]

Reek and Sansa - I was thinking of a moat. Clearly, they weren't trying suicide, so there must have been a plan, even if hastily thought up. I was a bit confused why that particular point caused Reek to help Sansa when he had ample opportunity before but didn't.

My take was that Miranda (I think that's her name?) was talking about taking pieces of Sansa until there was nothing of her left but a broken shell, and I guess that snapped Reek back into being Theon - a simultaneous protective instinct to prevent the same happening to Sansa, and a determination to show that for all Ramsey's efforts, there was still a shred of Theon left in Reek.

 

[Warren_Paul]

My take was that Miranda (I think that's her name?) was talking about taking pieces of Sansa until there was nothing of her left but a broken shell, and I guess that snapped Reek back into being Theon - a simultaneous protective instinct to prevent the same happening to Sansa, and a determination to show that for all Ramsey's efforts, there was still a shred of Theon left in Reek.

Exactly this. Sansa's plight triggered that part of him buried deep down inside where he still cared for his family, and it outweighed everything Ramsey had done to him.




In other news...

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
An article surfaced that is an interview with Kit where he says he isn't coming back next season. Which is pretty damning, but also kind of deceptive. Note he said "next season", he didn't say he wasn't ever coming back. He's saying exactly what he needs to say without actually lying. Which pretty much is everything he knows. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Even if his character does come back to life somehow, perhaps by the work of a Red Priestess who just so happened to arrive back at Castle Black in convenient timing to be present for his death, (can't be a coincidence) even so, he might not be back "alive" until season 7. Which means he'd do a Bran and stand the next season out. Hence, he's not coming back next season.

Also on this point, Season 6 is apparently going to involve some Iron Islands characters and do a little catchup there. If season 6 is going to deal with the ironborn then it might not have time to show much of the Wall if any at all. And they also haven't caught up to where Arya's storyline ended in ADWD yet either, so that's something that season 6 will have to deal with.

Apparently the pay rise rumour was just that, a rumour, so he claims, but that's also something he's not allowed to confirm because it would likely be in breach of his contract, people typically aren't allowed to discuss such things publicly. But he didn't say the entire thing was wrong, he only said parts of it were inaccurate. He didn't specify what parts, and he hasn't denied having signed a contract for season 6&7 either. But he has talked about doing other things so... perhaps he really believes he's done. Perhaps he really is...

Personally, I think the answers in the article are deceptive and intended as deflection to keep the drama coming. If everybody thinks Jon Snow isn't dead for good, then it wouldn't be the "Break the Internet" moment they wanted it to be. But I also wonder if Jon Snow's return to the story will be played by a different actor. Whatever process they use to bring him back might change him physically. Perhaps he will warg into Ghost and run around as a direwolf for an entire season, or perhaps he will turn white walker and be the TV version of Coldhands...? Heir to The Night's King, anybody?

I guess we will have to wait and see. They've veered off here and there, made some acceptable changes and streamlined things a bit, but nothing major that appears would change the entire outcome of the story... until now. I'll probably stop watching if D&D, in their ignorance, have gone and ruined GRRMs vision for the story.

 

[REBerg]

So, what you are inferring is that Jon Snow is going to do an Obi Wan Kenobi on us? And that nothing else that we think we know is certain. I agree that the walk of shame scene would be more dramatic that way. I'm going to need more information about 'Zombie Mountain' next season. There has been no indication before that that motley crew left in Kings Landing could perform such powerful magic.

Jon being magically resurrected seems just as believable as walking, unsuspectingly, into that trap. His long-lost uncle is still alive, really?
Shades of Julius Caesar! Jon is stabbed by a string of individual, “For the Watch” underlings, but not fatally, it seemed, until the final “et, tu, Olly?” thrust.

I thought Cersei's walk of atonement, with the highly intimidating, giant dungeon matron ushering her along (“Shame! Shame! Shame!" Ding!) was kind of hilarious. Nice job of hostile crowd control by the Sparrow squad. I got the distinct feeling that the good citizens of King's Landing are not Cersei's biggest fans.

I didn't think that Cersei was actually atoning for her partially confessed sins, until the tears starting rolling. Was she crying because she was truly ashamed by her transgressions or because she was a haughty, naked queen being humiliated? I suspect it was the latter.

Boy, oh, boy, are the High Sparrow and Faith Militant ever going to catch hell next season from Cersei's new, moutainesque, fully armored champion. Knock, knock! Hello? Ser Gregor, are you in there? No? Then, perhaps someone/thing Qyburn has sewn together from the dwarf heads and other spare body parts he collected in his laboratory? Had King's Landing experienced any lightning lately? It's alive!

 

[Koopa]

Well, jon might indeed just become a white walker... i doubt it though.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I didn't think that Cersei was actually atoning for her partially confessed sins, until the tears starting rolling. Was she crying because she was truly ashamed by her transgressions or because she was a haughty, naked queen being humiliated? I suspect it was the latter.

Boy, oh, boy, are the High Sparrow and Faith Militant ever going to catch hell next season from Cersei's new, moutainesque, fully armored champion. Knock, knock! Hello? Ser Gregor, are you in there? No? Then, perhaps someone/thing Qyburn has sewn together from the dwarf heads and other spare body parts he collected in his laboratory? Had King's Landing experienced any lightning lately? It's alive!

See that's what I was getting at. After that episode we are left with the impression Cersei is going to get revenge. But when I read the book version of these events, it left me feeling that her fight was over, that she had lost the battle, that they'd broken her, and now all she wanted was to be with her family. The way D&D handled this scene gave completely opposite feelings to the book, at least for me.

Jon being magically resurrected seems just as believable as walking, unsuspectingly, into that trap. His long-lost uncle is still alive, really?
Shades of Julius Caesar! Jon is stabbed by a string of individual, “For the Watch” underlings, but not fatally, it seemed, until the final “et, tu, Olly?” thrust.

There is precedent for it. The red priest, Thoros of Myr, raised Beric Dondarrion from the dead multiple times, one such time actually on the show in season 3. So they wrote into the show that R'hllor has the power to resurrect people. On the show he also told Melisandre how he uses that power, potentially putting the idea in her head. Melisandre happens to be at Castle Black right now... Whether D&D are stupid or not determines whether they make use of the plot device they themselves introduced.

 

[Gnrevolution]

What is Davos going to do? He has no allegiances now. He doesn't know how the princess died and is unlikely to find out.

I can't believe that Davos won't find out, all those men that deserted are likely to talk, and word will get back about what happened. But I'm guessing by then Mel may have Easter Sunday'd Jon and be under her protection. I think it is very deceiving in the show as to how much time has passed, Mel seemed to get back very quickly, but no quicker than Davos who looked to only recently arrived (and who left only the day before).

Not sure what to make of the poisoning of Myrcella, it's not like the boat was days out, surely they would just turn around head straight back and confront Prince Doran who will immediately know what happened and have the sand snakes executed (or at least the mother). Assuming she is dead of course, far too many people are on cliffhangers at the end of this season it's difficult to predict what will come next. I guess that's D&Ds plan though, will keep pulling everyone back...

 

[Ursa major]

Of course, it's very possible that D&D will decide to keep Jon dead and completely change the ending of the story from what we suspect GRRM intends... That would be the real break the internet moment...

...at which point we'll have to remind book readers that just because a show that has being moving away** from its source contains certain events and particular consequences, it does not necessarily mean that the books that come later have to follow suit.


** - Quite rightly, given that the show will end before the last book appears.

 

[REBerg]

Not sure what to make of the poisoning of Myrcella, it's not like the boat was days out, surely they would just turn around head straight back and confront Prince Doran who will immediately know what happened and have the sand snakes executed (or at least the mother). Assuming she is dead of course, far too many people are on cliffhangers at the end of this season it's difficult to predict what will come next. I guess that's D&Ds plan though, will keep pulling everyone back...

When Myrcella became the unlikely recipient of a Dorne departure kiss from Ellaria, I was immediately suspicious. After all, poison is the Sand family trademark, Ellaria is stupidly vengeful, and her lips were unnaturally rosy.

Myrcella seemed to be beyond surviving the time it would take to get back to shore. Maybe Trystane Martell is carrying one those handy little vials of antidote. In a poison-proud culture, no one should leave home without one.

Fortunately for Jaime, his lips did not meet Myrcella's during their father-daughter talk. Good to see the man has boundaries.

I wonder if Jaime will ever stop being surprised at who knows about his relationship with Cersei. Bronn knew. Ellaria knew. Even Myrcella seemed amused that he thought she didn't know. Could be the worst-kept secret in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

[Koopa]

I can't believe that Davos won't find out, all those men that deserted are likely to talk, and word will get back about what happened. But I'm guessing by then Mel may have Easter Sunday'd Jon and be under her protection. I think it is very deceiving in the show as to how much time has passed, Mel seemed to get back very quickly, but no quicker than Davos who looked to only recently arrived (and who left only the day before).

Seems to me he already knows what Melisandre did. The look they exhanged when he asked about the princess seemed to tell me, he knows all he needs to know about Stannis and Melisandre's actions.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Who's to say that the Melisandre's prediction is false? She didn't say WHEN the events would happen. My guess is that Stanis is still alive , and that he will head back to the Wall. Whether it's his troops or White Walkers or even dragons that cause Bolton banners to burn, who knows?

As for Melisandre returning to the Wall quickly - well don't forget the snows have melted , so travel will be much easier/quicker.

I'd say it's 99% certain that the grim knight at the end was the Mountain. Qyburn was the one tasked to heal him, and so he now presents the finished article.

In my opinion the ending will be a climatic battle between the several factions. The the White Walkers will intervene and the combined forces of the Seven Kingdoms will destroy them with dragons taking the leading role.

 

[Judderman]

is right about the new kingsguard, we've known this for awhile that they were doing some weird experiment with what remained of Gregor Clegane. I'm guessing what they've done is something similar to how white walkers came into existence.

Just because he was horrendously poisoned, his skin has gone a horrible colour, may not be able to talk, has been operated on and probably had chemicals/weird medicines used on him doesn't actually mean he is a zombie or real magic was involved.