5.10 Mother's Mercy

[Judderman]

If the Lord of Light's magic only works sometimes then it is as much use as rolling a die.

What is Davos going to do? He has no allegiances now. He doesn't know how the princess died and is unlikely to find out.

The magic did work as the snow retreated. But that doesn't stop half the army deserting because their King is apparently crazy.

Davos probably will find out as there will be rumours from survivors of the army.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Just because he was horrendously poisoned, his skin has gone a horrible colour, may not be able to talk, has been operated on and probably had chemicals/weird medicines used on him doesn't actually mean he is a zombie or real magic was involved.

I agree, he hasn't been resurrected as he didn't die. Qyburn was originally castigated for his 'too bold' experiments, operating on living creatures. He told Cersi after the fight in which he was wounded that he wouldn't be the same again. I think Qyburn not only took the opportunity to heal Mountain but also to conduct some experiments on him. If he was dangerous before, who knows how formidable he is now?

As for Jon, the Lord of Light has returned people from the dead before, and with Melisandre - one of the LoL's chief acolytes - in attendance, Jon could too. Is it too far fetched that Melisandre raises Jon, Stannis returns to the Wall with the help of Brienne and they team up with the Wildlings to attack Winterfell? Leaving Bolton banners in flames, Stannis King of the North and all of Melisandre's predictions come true?

 

[Warren_Paul]

The magic did work as the snow retreated. But that doesn't stop half the army deserting because their King is apparently crazy.

Davos probably will find out as there will be rumours from survivors of the army.

[...]

Just because he was horrendously poisoned, his skin has gone a horrible colour, may not be able to talk, has been operated on and probably had chemicals/weird medicines used on him doesn't actually mean he is a zombie or real magic was involved.

Very true, it was never confirmed that the Mountain actually died from the poison. Quite possibly he didn't.

Seems to me he already knows what Melisandre did. The look they exhanged when he asked about the princess seemed to tell me, he knows all he needs to know about Stannis and Melisandre's actions.

This.

As others have said, that look exchanged between Melisandre and Davos at the end says all. He knows, and he won't be happy about it come season 6 -- once he's mourned her death. But as for the magic, she certainly thinks its her magic that caused the thaw. For all we know, the thaw was coming regardless of what actions she did. I think her prediction will come true though, just in a round about way.

 

[REBerg]

I don't think Arya is permanently blind. She just got a friendly warning from the Many-Faced God to make her think twice about killing unassigned people and borrowing faces before she gets her library card.

Why would any god fail to see the promise of an assassin trainee who picks such a deserving target and kills with such gusto? I mean, both eyes, a gag, a lecture, and a slit throat? Advance to the head of the class, Arya.

It was freaky when Arya peeled face after face from the “dead” Jaqen and finished face-to-face with her own face before losing her sight. I'm thinking that was a little bit too heavy to be foreshadowing.

 

[Koopa]

Arya is a bit of a mind boggler. Her link to Nymeria, other stuff make it seems like she'll never completely lose her Stark personality. However she is getting ever deeper into the faceless men cult. And farther away from ever living again as Arya Stark. Even that last scene, can be thought of in different ways. You could think, Arya needs to 'kill' off her former self, that this was part of the lesson. Or you could think that Arya killed No One, and that Arya therefore could not become no one in truth. Which she was being trained more or less to become.

 

[Gnrevolution]

Seems to me he already knows what Melisandre did. The look they exhanged when he asked about the princess seemed to tell me, he knows all he needs to know about Stannis and Melisandre's actions.

All i got from that look was that she confirmed that Shireen is dead, but not how. Davos may suspect though...

 

[REBerg]

Arya is a bit of a mind boggler. Her link to Nymeria, other stuff make it seems like she'll never completely lose her Stark personality. However she is getting ever deeper into the faceless men cult. And farther away from ever living again as Arya Stark. Even that last scene, can be thought of in different ways. You could think, Arya needs to 'kill' off her former self, that this was part of the lesson. Or you could think that Arya killed No One, and that Arya therefore could not become no one in truth. Which she was being trained more or less to become.

OK, now you've managed to put my mind in boggle mode -- as if the string of cryptic statements from Jaqen weren't already sufficiently boggling. I'll pick the figuratively killing the original Arya Stark you offered as the most stabilizing explanation of that last scene. There. I feel better.

My guess is that Arya's powerful personality will prevent her from becoming either "no one" or "someone else." She won't be absorbed by the Faceless Men Cult, but she won't be getting her diploma from the House of Black White Assassins Academy. She will leave with a set of new skills to aid in crossing off the rest of the names on her kill list.

What she needs to ask Jaqen next season is "Who does a girl have to kill to get out of this place?"

 

[Judderman]

Probably a Stark!

 

[Tulius Hostilius]

I must say that this last episode was brilliant! I didn’t read the books, but I am very annoyed when in a TV show I know all that is going to happen.

Here I just don’t know. It is not predicable… and I like it that way…

Besides characters really change, we feel that change…

 

[REBerg]

Probably a Stark!

Hmmm. Not many of those left. Hope Arya isn't stark-raving mad when she runs into any of her surviving siblings.

 

[Koopa]

Catelyn got the mad stark angle covered. Wait, does Stoneheart exist in the tv show. I forgot.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Catelyn got the mad stark angle covered. Wait, does Stoneheart exist in the tv show. I forgot.

Nope, she got cut.

 

[REBerg]

Interesting how they didn't confirm Stannis's death. I'm almost certain Brienne didn't kill him, which leaves his story arc exactly how it ended in the book. Nobody has any idea of his fate.

Despite the off-camera sword swing, I think the frontrunner in the Iron Throne Marathon was beheaded by Brienne. She couldn't possibly miss her mark with Oathkeeper, right?

Stannis was permanently at the top of Brienne's “kill list.” His and Melisandre's smoky lovechild had murdered her favorite Baratheon brother, and the Lady Knight clearly has some anger issues.

I was starting to worry that Brienne might take an arrow to the head while she dilly-dallied with her pre-chopping pronouncements. I guess summary judgment protocol simply cannot be ignored.

Despite being seriously wounded, Stannis had showcased his kingly fighting skills by killing the pair of Bolton-side boys who happened upon him after the battle was over. Other than that, the man didn't have a whole lot going for him.

Stannis had sacrificed his sweet daughter for naught. The Bolton raid had left this soldiers without food, and they were about to barbecue their dead horses. His wife had hung herself. Half his army had deserted, taking with them their weapons and horses. His witchy woman had bugged out as soon as the Lord of Light was unable to deliver more than a little melting snow to speed Stannis to his doom.

Is it any wonder he told Brienne “Do your duty”?

 

[paranoid marvin]

But her duty is also to Sansa Stark. She's now seen that she has little chance of attacking Winterfell and rescuing Sansa herself, or even of rallying others to do so. Stannis on the other hand undoubtedly has reserves and has the same goal as Brienne; revenge on the Boltons.

Whilst in this case the enemy of my enemy may not be my friend, they may at least be someone I can work with; especially when that person is now in my debt.

Also from what we know of Brienne it is unlikely she is the kind of person to kill a man with little chance of defending himself. Having said that, if she knew that he'd had his daughter burned alive she may make an exception.

One alternative could be that she captures Stannis and takes him to Winterfell in order to gain easier access to Sansa (obviously unaware of the fact that bird has flown).

 

[Warren_Paul]

It's that "Do your duty" comment that makes me truly believe Brienne changed her mind at the last moment.

Just because we saw Brienne swing the sword doesn't mean she actually killed Stannis. And because they didn't show us, it's almost certain that he did survive. That's TV. It's a pretty cliché moment to be honest. So many other shows have done that same trick, usually showing somebody pointing a gun then firing it off screen, only for the next episode to show they didn't actually shoot the person we were lead to believe they had.

There is every possibility she swung the sword either out of frustration, or to intimidate Stannis, but had already decided against killing him right there and then, so she fell short of her mark intentionally.

Of course, they might be deliberately doing the cliché moment only to turn around and tell us she really did kill him. Anything is possible.



In other news: came across this panel I'd missed earlier in the year. It lets the "warg" out of the bag in regards to Jon Snow's future. I tried to link it to start at the right spot, but the forums keeps trying to be helpful by ruining my link. 22m into the video is the relevant bit.

Pay close attention to what Dan Weiss says after they are done laughing at Kit Harington's comment about wanting to be a warg. "I've got two words for you, Season Six. Season Six."

So, they actually confirmed they were adapting a popular theory amongst the book readers before the season even started. So I'm pretty confident with what I suggested earlier, that he will spend season 6 inside Ghost. It appears they haven't lost the plot after all.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Despite the off-camera sword swing, I think the frontrunner in the Iron Throne Marathon was beheaded by Brienne. She couldn't possibly miss her mark with Oathkeeper, right?

To quote Dan Weiss himself: “In a show, everybody sees it for what it is. It’s that rule: ‘If [you] don’t see the body then they’re not really dead.’
Source: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead

They were talking about Jon in this instance, but the same rule applies to any other death in the show. They use Ned as an example in the article.

 

[REBerg]

It's that "Do your duty" comment that makes me truly believe Brienne changed her mind at the last moment.

Just because we saw Brienne swing the sword doesn't mean she actually killed Stannis. And because they didn't show us, it's almost certain that he did survive...

There is every possibility she swung the sword either out of frustration, or to intimidate Stannis, but had already decided against killing him right there and then, so she fell short of her mark intentionally.

Of course, they might be deliberately doing the cliché moment only to turn around and tell us she really did kill him. Anything is possible.

I guess I put myself waaay out on a limb by pronouncing Stannis dead. Brienne's cry as she was swinging Oathkeeper could very well, as you observed, have been one of frustration. As much as she wanted to avenge Renly, her knightly sense of honor may have kicked in and prevented her from completing the act.

Then, Stannis had not been relieved of his weapons, only the ability and strength (and apparently the will) to use them. Those sentenced to death are rarely armed when the execution is carried out. Stannis' confession to the murder of Renly should have cleared Brienne's conscience for what she was about to do.

To quote Dan Weiss himself: “In a show, everybody sees it for what it is. It’s that rule: ‘If [you] don’t see the body then they’re not really dead.’

I appreciate how the showrunners like to mess with our minds in their off-camera dead-or-not scenes. I don't know if they are religiously following their "no body, no death" rule because I have no doubt that Shireen is gone, not that much of a body would have remained to display.

I must be subconsciously following the rule, though, because I was unsure it either Tywin or the Hound was dead at the end of season 4. They produced Tywin's corpse in the season 5 opener, but I still hold hope for the reappearance of the Hound.

Maybe it boils down to how everyone feels about the character in question. I hate Stannis for burning his daughter alive, so I want him dead. I like the Hound, despite his checkered past and motives in protecting Arya, so I want him alive. Everybody loves Jon, so, regardless of the convincing pool of blood in the closing scene of this season's finale, fans (myself included) universally want him resurrected ASAP and by any means possible in season 6.

Working his return into the opening credits would be nice.

Thanks for the links. Both the video and the article were insightful. I liked the sense of humor displayed by the producers and cast members in the panel.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I must be subconsciously following the rule, though, because I was unsure it either Tywin or the Hound was dead at the end of season 4. They produced Tywin's corpse in the season 5 opener, but I still hold hope for the reappearance of the Hound.

Maybe it boils down to how everyone feels about the character in question. I hate Stannis for burning his daughter alive, so I want him dead. I like the Hound, despite his checkered past and motives in protecting Arya, so I want him alive.

And that's what I hate about what D&D have done to some of the characters. The book Stannis was a much better character that you could actually get behind and support. He never would have burnt Shireen. Selyse would have though. They got the character reactions back to front in the show. So sad that D&D made him into such an unlovable character. I'm not sure if it's because they didn't really understand the motivations of the book characters, or perhaps they thought this made them a better character for the show...?

But don't worry, turns out I'm wrong in this case, apparently they broke the rule for the sake of not being "gratuitous."

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/gam...e-jon-stannis-deaths-david-nutter-1201520137/

There’s also speculation about whether Stannis is truly dead. We didn’t see Brienne deliver that final, fatal blow.

I think that was basically in the script. Dan and David felt it best not to be gratuitous with that. You really got a sense that Stannis had nothing else to live for. Brienne’s life-long mission had come to an end. It’s a situation in which Stannis was ready to die and prepared to die. It would have been gratuitous.

Of course, that could be more deception, like the Jon death. Which I notice he won't confirm whether he's coming back or not.



Most people think Sandor Clegane is still alive. There is a popular theory going around about him and a certain gravedigger from the books.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Re: Brienne and Stannis - in the books I remember Brienne being sent to find and save the Stark girls. In the TV series, how did she end up with a personal vendetta against Stannis?

 

[Gnrevolution]

Re: Brienne and Stannis - in the books I remember Brienne being sent to find and save the Stark girls. In the TV series, how did she end up with a personal vendetta against Stannis?

Not sure if I'm misinterpreting, but the whole Renly thing was the basis of the vendetta, trying to clear her name apart from anything else as most people thought she had done the deed. She says that the shadow that killed Renly wore the face of Stannis, which was how she knew (or thought she knew) that he was behind the assassination.