DISCUSSION -- July 2015 75-word Writing Challenge

[Luiglin]

Aha ... Minion it's worked, he's left his account logged in. You're a genius. I'll dictate, you type. Let us see how much trouble we can get him into...

Ashleyne B. Watts
Norman hates armour, it gets stuck in his teeth.

Michael Coorlim
The dead are always fun to talk too, very cryptic, like having a conversation in crossword clues.

farntfar
I’m not sure about the technology but any tale that includes a skeleton is good with me.

Luiglin
Totally unrealistic, stereotypical and one dimensional.

Cat’s Cradle
My sort of speech, full of lies and mistruths. I could do with a new herald that talks like that.

Juliana
Ha ha ha... nothing better than a good comedy. Perfect plot for a theatre farce.

Bowler1
Hmmm... Minion seemed to like this one for some reason. He was quite emphatic about it.

willwallace
What they need to do is raise him as a zombie. At least he could be useful round the house then.

BigJ
He’s in the best place believe me. Rising time and time again as I have done is a right pain.

telford
Like a snippet of my love life, except with aliens and blasters... and a woman I suppose.

Hex
Ah... the good old double-cross hide in wheat field tactic. I’ve gone all misty evil eyed.

Titanium Ti
Gods? Interfering lazy things. Always getting one over the peasants. I mean, that’s my job.

Venusian Broon
Askrad and Keith? Great couple, met them last year at the Evil Doers Conference. Real snappy dressers.

Victoria Silverwolf
Strange, I’ve tried this scheme before. The big flaw? I can’t help being perfect.

Vaz
I have dreams like this. I think it’s due to Minion’s mushroom flapjacks.

LittleStar
Mother had a mirror that was cursed to show you the opposite. Lucky for me I don’t have a good side; I’m evil all the way through baby.

AJB
What’s one man’s abomination is another man’s Norman. I side with Norman.

David Doherty-Jebb
I like this Queen, my sort of woman and treasuring the tears? That’s pure evil class.

Jo Zebedee
The Minion says the movies is a cut throat business. How much are tickets to Hollywood?

Mad Alice
Any tale with madness in it gets a big three thumbs up from me.

Robert Mackay
I can’t see what the fuss is all about, sounds like a reasonable conquest to me.

Ihe
Boo hiss. I want to hear about hermaphrodite wizards toting maser cannons. Norman pop round to this Ihe and give him my “compliments”.

Germinad
Yes, sneaky. I like it. I could use him in my guard.

DG Jones
There’s no room for sentiment when slaughtering the populace. Give those Stormtroopers a medal.

A. Fare Wells
Prophets are fun, especially the mad ones that mutter, gibber and drool. Which coincidentally can be the same result of too much Bourbon the Minion says.

Cascade
Succubi, they love ya and leave ya… normally as a dried out husk, but what a way to go.

 

[Dan Jones]

Dark Lord for Moderator!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Ofc the choice is conscious, but an underlying bias remains all the same. You can't help it and you might not realize it, but it's there.
And about taste, that's another thing entirely. Ofc taste plays a part in voting, even if it was anon. I don't mind people's taste. I'm complaining about something else.



I agree. But you could still match story to author once the big reveal happens, so I think that's a non-issue. I do agree about the immediate feedbacks. It would be a pity to lose them.

I'm not sure the bias harms things. For instance, I love @alchemist's writing and vote for him obscenely often. But if his story doesn't appeal, I don't vote for it. It has to be the writer plus the story. So, yes, I might pay more attention to his, and a few others, because I know I enjoy their style - much as I'd sample a favourite author over someone new, although that's changing as I know more and more new authors - but if the story isn't the best one, to my taste, I don't vote for it.

What I'm largely saying is sure, knowing who wrote it might get them a closer readthrough (and I'm not sure it does - often if it doesn't grip me I move on) but it doesn't get them the vote. Ever....

 

[Remedy]

@Ihe I think you make a good point and a convincing argument. Undoubtedly a subconscious part of us is at work, whether we like it or not. But that in itself has been a longstanding part of the 75 and 300.

So perhaps an additional challenge within the challenge (challenge-ception) is to win someone away from their subconscious bias? It can be a tremendous feeling when someone who has never mentioned you before, gifts you with notice. Especially someone whose writing you greatly admire (and it happens, believe me)

We have the 100-anon for true impartiality which is brilliant. But I think making all the challenges the same would be taking something away from them. By our awareness of the author, there is a further element of difficulty - thereby making the challenge all the more challenging which can only be good.

 

[Droflet]

Thanks for the review, Luiglin. If your love life is anything like that you truly are the Dark Lord.

 

[Luiglin]

Thanks for the review, Luiglin. If your love life is anything like that you truly are the Dark Lord.

Damn, how'd he get on? Those are the Dark Lord's words not mine, or maybe the Minions, as his awfulness is a complete technophobe.

 

[HareBrain]

I agree there can be influences on voting that might not come into play if it were anonymous. If an entry makes no sense to me at first, but it's by a writer I think is normally good, I might spend a little more time looking for what I've missed. And as others have said, it cuts both ways -- someone I'm friendly with on the forums, or who I've voted for recently, would have to impress me more to get my vote.

So in that sense I think @Ihe has a fair point, but I don't think it outweighs the problems of changing things.

I think the Mod that removed Parson may have some explaining to do when they see God.

Fortunately I run fast, and there are two of me.

 

[Juliana]

The Dark Lord's reviews made my day. @Luiglin you should leave your account logged in more often! Although he was a little harsh on yours... I wonder why?

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

Cascade -- When involved in the complex rituals of courtship, we may practice deception in order to appear more attractive. Taken too far, this could poison a relationship.

Remedy -- In order to avoid panic, authority often deceives the public when danger threatens. The trouble is that dishonesty quickly becomes a habit.

 

[Ihe]

It has to be the writer plus the story. So, yes, I might pay more attention to his, and a few others, because I know I enjoy their style - much as I'd sample a favourite author over someone new...

Well, if it was anon, you would still enjoy the style and probably still vote for him, but not knowing which is whose would keep you equally vigilant to all the stories.
Just the fact that there isn't truly equal consideration for all--depending on who is who and what we know or don't know from other writers--is a considerable bias IMO, and logically, this can lead to biased mentions, if not votes. As you say, it might not sway your vote at all (consciously, at the very least), but even small variations in our effort to savour and understand different stories is already a tad unfair.
The story itself, stripped of everything else, deserves our full consideration, always, every time. It's the art we love; the reason we are all gathered here, and we owe it that much. Even if absolutely NOTHING changed results/mentions-wise, making it anon would still undoubtedly honour the spirit of the art. Just fair and full consideration, it's all a writer/participant rightfully expects and rightfully deserves--not praise, not a vote, not a mention, not even a commentary. You can prod a finger at his/her lack of talent AFTER you've given him/her your unclouded attention. It's all we owe each other, artistically.

I guess my rants are mostly for upholding the spirit of the art. Any changes to anything in Chrons that derive from this would be secondary effects.

But I think making all the challenges the same would be taking something away from them

Salvaging variety, a valid point.

So in that sense I think @Ihe has a fair point, but I don't think it outweighs the problems of changing things.

The issue of what is more important is the main reason I started this discussion. If Chrons at large think that my suggestion is outweighed by other factors, (and indeed they do think it) I don't mind backing down. I've been given enough reasons against my idea to admit that the cost of the means eclipse the cost of the result (which would probably be an invisible one, on the qualitative side). I abide by the ruling. I'll drop the issue now .

Nevertheless, it's something to mull over.

PS: if anyone took my rants as anything other than purely constructive criticism to cold, hard voting mechanics, I apologize.

 

[Venusian Broon]

@Ihe If it makes you feel better , when I cast my vote, I try as fully as I can to divorce the story from who posted it. I too think the story should stand on it's own legs. Hence after I've posted mine I'll leave the thread till judging time and then go through all the stories, so that they all get the same treatment from me in the same frame of mind. Basically I mentally put a piece of cardboard over any names on the screen and try and make them anonymous.

This also means that I'm actually a little careful about following threads like this - as its strikes me that people posting glowing reviews of others work that go up piecemeal might influence me...however thinking about this it might actually be negative, as I may be far harder on people that I remember getting great reviews. I don't like being told what I should like, man

Anyway that's how I want to do it, but really I don't mind how everyone else gets to their vote/s. I see these challenges as fun personal exercises and I think there is plenty of room for loads of approaches and levels.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Bearing in mind the fact that stories that get votes or mentions are often really stretching the link with genre and/or theme, I think the point of changing it to anonymity to ensure fairness is a moot point (in the Murican sense of the word ie redundant).

I get all the points you raise however, and if the 100 anon challenge didn't exist then maybe it would be something to explore but I'm firmly of the 'if it ain't broke ...' camp.

pH

 

[Cat's Cradle]

Thank you, Victoria, for the very nice review. And Luiglin, thanks so much for allowing the Dark Lord some computer time--his reviews were terrific!

It's great, Ihe, to hear your perspectives on voting. I've been on the site 17 months, and I love the writing challenges. I'll just mention that, in my opinion, and in my observations since I joined, the system works. I love when a new, unusual talent joins the site, and the challenges. It's thrilling to see new entrants, and I often find myself drawn to these newer folk because of their fresh voices. If I look at the people whose stories I list each month in the voting rounds of the challenges, it runs the gamut from newbies, to the most seasoned of the Chrons membership. We're human beings, and we have biases, but this site has a remarkably fair, and open-minded membership. IMO it all balances out. Good stories get listed, and win challenges. And I think stories that affect people according to their biases for particular story types (some people prefer fantasy, some SF; some people enjoy slapstick comedy, some more serious, erudite storytelling) have a better chance for votes than stories written by any particular member.
Finally, I'll mention that in my opinion a big problem with having the challenges be anonymous is that people would lose the opportunity-of-moment to glow, before praise from their peers. When I started, I had no idea that I could win a challenge; I was/am an amateur writer, and just thought it beyond belief that I would be allowed to enter a story in a writing contest with a group of truly talented people. But then each month, some wonderful member--someone I admired--would praise my story...or list it...or even, sometimes, miraculously vote for something I'd written. And in that moment, I was ecstatic; and it gave me a feeling of pride; and other people would read the thread wherein I, and they, and others, were singled out for acclaim. And in an anonymous challenge* those moments of shared pride are deferred...perhaps even forgotten, by the time the challenge runs its course, and the author-reveals are posted. It may sound as though I am being overly dramatic, but honestly, just being publicly praised by people you admire can be such a spirit-lifting thing. Just my 2 cents, CC

edit--wow, that's long...I had no idea! So, more like my 4 cents!
*our on-going anonymous challenge is, of course, also wonderful, and offers its own unique challenges, and rewards. So we have that going for us, too!

 

[chrispenycate]

For one period in my voting I developed my own anonymous list, so as not to be affected by either 'I've voted for this person last month, can't do so again' or 'I know I can trust this person to do something good'. I duly agonise over each vote.

But really, getting a citation, a mention, is very nearly as good. The 'challenge' in these challenges is not really in competition with others, it's you against the - computer, nearly, as what interest does the universe have in your failure? Can you be proud of your piece, and look at all the people you admire who are reading and rereading it. Mine, it's never the ones I liked the best that got votes, but they go on having a special spot in what I use for emotions.

 

[farntfar]

I think that Cat's has expressesed it so well.

The anonymous challenge is fun, because it allows you to try out new ways of writing, and then having others suggest your story was by someone who you admire is a great buzz.
But in the real/official challenges it's just lovely to see your name in a short list or even a vote.
Some months ago someone said something like 'and prize for the best title goes to Farntfar.' in the discussion. I wandered around with a smile on my face for days.

As for always voting for the same people, I definitely don't. I find that I like different styles at different times apart from anything else. Life keeps getting in the way of my consistency. And anyway there are always such a lot of great stuff to chose from.

So my vote is to keep it as it is.

 

[Mad Alice]

I have as an not-yet-voter been following Ihe's argument from an outside perspective. I went over the last three months of stats and stories to correlate the authors to the outcomes, then went over Chrispennycate's stats log he has accumulated and posted. There doesn't seem a definite pattern to the voting. Other then that any story that I wouldn't find out of place in a magazine or other literary vehicle seemed to accumulate more votes and mentions.

There were unfortunately a few stories that would not meet this standard by my book. Whether because of inadvertent hijacking of a plot from another published work, ( I am death on plagiarism, I'm afraid, even if inadvertent. How can we expect others to honour our copy-write if we do not do likewise?), or spelling or context errors (you're/your, to/too/two type thing), some simply did not pass, even though they were fairly well writ. I noticed that these well written pieces were mentioned, though not given votes for.

Then I really thought. Would I vote for someone truly villainous, say if it were Charles Manson or Idi Amin on here? I really weighed it, then came to the conclusion that I would not. In that situation then yes, I would agree. The only possible course would be to make the challenges anonymous.

So since that does not seem to be the case, (Carefully avoids looking in the direction of the Dark Lord's 'Sacrificial Altar', (Especially after his thumbs up review, Ta!)) round and about here, it seems largely unnecessary.

So perhaps there is the key. Something new and shiny, error free, and not written by a baby axe murderer or ilk.

 

[farntfar]

"Well I ain't got know 'ope then". He said twindling his moustache.

 

[Ihe]

Re-reading our back-and-forths, I see I came on a bit intense maybe? I feel I need to clarify that I'm not fretting over this and people's retorts in no way antagonized me. I think it is my way of arguing that gives that impression of me. I will argue just as passionately and persistently over the last chip in the bag, or over who gets to sit shotgun. (Did I ever tell you about the time I incorporated hyenas' reproductive cycle in my argument over who deserved the biggest slice of cake at a birthday party?).

PS: insta-like and admiration to whoever weaves a convincing argument/story with just those elements mentioned above, which might or might not have been based on a true story.

PS2: My near-OCD love and respect for the challenges has not dwindled the least bit.

 

[farntfar]

Ihe,

One of the truly great things about this site is that you can get as passionate as you like and have almost everyone disagree with you without anyone getting upset or blaming you at all. So don't worry about it. As long as you're not actually offensive, people here are generally quite happy to have you express your own thoughts whether they agree on not. But don't be surprised if they argue right back, and don't yourself feel aggressed by it. It's all healthy and respectful disagreement.

As for the anonymity question itself, I think it's an idea that a lot of us have had at one time or another and it's the reason why the 100 word anonymous challenge was set up.
The suggestion was made in the autumn of last year, I think, of changing the challenges in just this fashion.
The "office" didn't want to and explained their reasons, most of which you've heard here. However they said 'If you want to do your own one in an unofficial fashion and run it yourselves, then why not. But choose your times so as not to conflict with the proper challenges.'
Since then different people have acted as the receiver/poster each month on a voluntary basis, and that's about it. The 100 isn't run in the same month as the 300 so as not to overload people.

 

[Remedy]

Ihe, don't worry, you've generated discussion... in the very thread for such things

While I do not totally agree with your suggested changes, I applaud your tenacity for suggesting them and making me think about it. I also like to see an argument well debated, which I think you did valiantly.