That's the point - it's not always gratuitous. If done well it can be humourous, immersive, and authentic; or, it could be aggressive, jarring... and authentic.
Cursing?
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That's the point - it's not always gratuitous. If done well it can be humourous, immersive, and authentic; or, it could be aggressive, jarring... and authentic.
Yes. I avoid it, Jo. (Unless I wrote a totally despicable character)
pH
pH
There's a good GRRM quote from Asha Greyjoy in ADWD: “C*** again? It was odd how men like Suggs used that word to demean women when it was the only part of a woman they valued.”
So it does have a place, albeit a limited one. And as Ph said, I thought that word would have been the absolute perfect title - witty, vulgar, subversive - for a particular piece of his, but ultimately it would never get published anywhere with a title like that.
ratsy
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I haven't used a lot in my writing, but I do use the odd one. I have no real problem with reading books with swearing. If it fits the characters and the story, then it's all good with me. I've never thought, 'this book could use some swearing' if it doesn't have any though.
Anushka Mokosh
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I have a question. Does anyone know an author who uses language more foul than Martin? I want to test the library lady here and see how she'd react if a 13 year-old kid tries to borrow it. XD
Ihe
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@Jo Zebedee, I guess if the setting is realistic and down-to-earth enough, it could feel natural to have cursing. But I feel the fantastical elements kinda give you a free pass if you don't want to cuss, without much repercussion in the realism or the disbelief suspension. Example of a reader in such situation: "Hmm, the MC could've cussed his heart out in this scene, and he didn't, it just doesn't seem natur—Whoah! The cyber-unicorn just impaled that vampire overlord in the head!" 
I didn't blink at Martin's... Try Irvine Welsh or Roddy Doyle. Or Bob Geldof's autobiography, which I read when I was 14.
I'm not being awkward here but kids go to secondary school at 11 (here) and the playground is full of curse words. Why should having words they hear everyday be a reason to recommend or not a book for them? Better to have an open discussion about it, and talk about the context of swear words and respect for others and times when things are appropriate/not appropriate. Kids are smarter than we sometimes believe, and they're wrestling these things all the time - if they're sheltered from them, how does that help anyone? Instead of worrying about the swear words in Martin and the effect they'd have on a 13 year old, I'd be more worried about the mysognistic overtones, the violence and the graphic nature of the books. Perhaps finding books like that and seeing if your librarian would recommend them might be even more interesting than focusing on swear words (in which case, run Prince of Thorns past her and see if she recommends Lawrence for a YA. It's shockingly scary how many adults consider it appropriate for YAs...)
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Like I said earlier, you'd have to go someway to improve on the fine filth used by Irvine Welsh in some of his stuff.
Snap!
I wonder if it's genre-specific, too. I don't blink when Stephen King uses obscenity (it's very frequent sometimes in his work!). When I started watching GOT 18 months ago, I called my sister who reads fantasy (and worked in Waterstones a few years ago), and asked her if GRRM used that kind of language in his books because the idea of fantasy using expletives was incredible! She confirmed he did. I was shocked.
And yes, Dan, I agree re that title; because the MC was one ...
pH
And yes, Dan, I agree re that title; because the MC was one ...
pH
Indeed he was, both in the pejorative sense, and eventually in the, er, other sense...
I'd keep the "alternative" title on ice for when you publish it in your own anthology
I'd keep the "alternative" title on ice for when you publish it in your own anthology
Zebra Wizard
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made up swears words are ONLY good when used in conjunction with real ones. Otherwise it's sounds horrible, and pulls you out of the immersion. In fantasy this is the same problem. If they are going to use made up swear words why not use real ones, if they are suppose to be curse words?
Maybe it's different in america, but in EU swearing is part of the language, and removing it, is just a way to make it family friendly. If you want to strive for realism, definately use it. Even the most well cultured, high society swear. So i expect real ones to swear too.
But you need to know how to use swearing just like any other kind of words, swearing is like poetry, it has to roll of the tongue which can bring humor or character to a situation, adding too much in one sentence is vulgar and painful as someone said.
Maybe it's different in america, but in EU swearing is part of the language, and removing it, is just a way to make it family friendly. If you want to strive for realism, definately use it. Even the most well cultured, high society swear. So i expect real ones to swear too.
But you need to know how to use swearing just like any other kind of words, swearing is like poetry, it has to roll of the tongue which can bring humor or character to a situation, adding too much in one sentence is vulgar and painful as someone said.
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Feck worked in Father Ted - it worked rather less well in a fantasy series I read.
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I find it more than a bit odd (and honestly quite hilarious) that some of the same people who defend endless violence, incest, torture, pedophilia, and rape in fiction are the same people who practically swoon when so-called vulgarity is mentioned.
"Yes, of course the author can have as many incestuous rape-torture scenes as they want, that's art. But they better not dare use the f-word, that's naughty."
"Yes, of course the author can have as many incestuous rape-torture scenes as they want, that's art. But they better not dare use the f-word, that's naughty."
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The posters whose history includes defenses of the violence, rape, and torture prevalent in the grimdark subgenre who also happen to be outraged by so-called vulgarity.
Smeg isn't a made-up work. It's sort for smegma:
Smegma (Greek smēgma, "soap") is a combination of shed skin cells, skin oils, and moisture. It occurs in both female and male mammalian genitalia.
It was still a made up swear. Smerrrrr-heeeeeeeeed!
Zebra Wizard
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I think it works alot better in comedy, where immersion isn't something they strive for. And feck works well with father ted because of his crazy accent.
But I also noticed that some authors do shy away from profanity but include all those other things (rape etc).
I think it comes down to how comfortable the author is with using it. And it seems like many are not.
In the fantasy world, Scott Lynch for example swears alot (a tad too much for even me and im british), and you can see he has no issue using it in his writing. Brandon sanderson almost never swears and is a devout christian so his works are full of made up words.
tinkerdan
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I don't find this to be true at all and I'm not sure what posters you mean
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What I usually see after sorting out the few who might go too far off the rails about all of the above::
There are those who are mostly concerned about the overuse of any of them including both the language and the violence and rape and torture and such because overuse tends to butt up with general notions of poor writing and tropes and in some case what people believe is offensive to some group or another.
I can't say I've ever seen where someone defended the violence, rape, torture and turn to condemn the vulgarity. In fact most understand that within the definition of grim dark are all those element.
But it could just be that I've tuned out those people who do that because it makes no sense.
.
What I usually see after sorting out the few who might go too far off the rails about all of the above::
There are those who are mostly concerned about the overuse of any of them including both the language and the violence and rape and torture and such because overuse tends to butt up with general notions of poor writing and tropes and in some case what people believe is offensive to some group or another.
I can't say I've ever seen where someone defended the violence, rape, torture and turn to condemn the vulgarity. In fact most understand that within the definition of grim dark are all those element.
But it could just be that I've tuned out those people who do that because it makes no sense.
AnyaKimlin
Confuddled
Like gob-smacked was used before Chris Patten said it - smeg & smeghead was used before Dave Lister.
My children swear sometimes - they don't do it every other word and keep it for when they need it. They also don't seem to have the rotten obsession about what is and what is not a swearword their friends seem to have. In the end I stuck a certain picture of Winston Churchill on my wall.
In my books I keep it to a minimum but I also have some made up ones - What on Litae? = What on Earth?