Cursing?

[Phyrebrat]

Don't get me started on overuse of rape. That's lazier than swearing, not to mention misogynistic and often a sign that the author doesn't understand his (as it's usually male writers who're guilty of this) characters or himself, let alone the dynamics behind rape.

Like I said: don't get me started...

pH

 

[SilentRoamer]

That statement is the reason I would hate to try to write a rape scene.

 

[JunkMonkey]

I swear. In real life I swear a lot but in books it doesn't work for me at all. Unless it is very well placed and well timed. The "Oh f*ck!" towards the start of Neal Gaiman's Stardust made me laugh out loud. (My 10 year old daughter who read it after me laughed at that point too.)

"Frell" in Farscape worked well.

The endless "pee poo will bum fart - look at me I'm being rude!" swearage that is the hallmark of the 'Bizarro' school just looks puerile. There's no point in even opening books like Rico Slade Will F*cking Kill You, Zombies and sh*t, and F*ckers of Everything on the Crazy Sh*tting Planet of the Vomit Atmosphere - because I know they're crap before I've got to the end of the titles.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I didn't blink at Martin's... Try Irvine Welsh or Roddy Doyle. Or Bob Geldof's autobiography, which I read when I was 14.

I'm not being awkward here but kids go to secondary school at 11 (here) and the playground is full of curse words. Why should having words they hear everyday be a reason to recommend or not a book for them? Better to have an open discussion about it, and talk about the context of swear words and respect for others and times when things are appropriate/not appropriate. Kids are smarter than we sometimes believe, and they're wrestling these things all the time - if they're sheltered from them, how does that help anyone? Instead of worrying about the swear words in Martin and the effect they'd have on a 13 year old, I'd be more worried about the mysognistic overtones, the violence and the graphic nature of the books. Perhaps finding books like that and seeing if your librarian would recommend them might be even more interesting than focusing on swear words (in which case, run Prince of Thorns past her and see if she recommends Lawrence for a YA. It's shockingly scary how many adults consider it appropriate for YAs...)

I'm aware, but nowadays I find the debate about it quite astonishing for both language and themes. I guess that language is what I wanted to test since it is the subject of the thread and I wondered if a kid who is 13 today (in this case, my brother) would be able to get away with something I got away when I was 13 or something even "worse". I do agree that the important thing is to talk. In a way, not limit the exposure, but have the kids and teens understand the topics and use of language in works of fiction. Like how we have an unspoken rule that while you may hear many things and see many things on TV or read about in books or see from other people, you should know what is polite behaviour and not repeat any of what isn't.

It is really the discrepancy between what I read in papers and hear from online friends about happening elsewhere (predominately USA which tends to flush the entertainment industry with their own standards) where a Cluster of F Bombs warrants an R rating in an otherwise pristine film and the way my own surroundings functions where cursing is entirely ignored as long as it doesn't involve something holy and it is something kids aren't shielded from by any real mechanism. Croatia isn't a liberal country by a long shot really. It is a country where the influence of Catholic Church is still rather strong and it is very obvious in many topics such as introducing SexEd in schools (FanFact: We've actually had SexEd as part of Biology classes as early as age 11. Just that nobody cared. And nobody still cares about that one.) or gay marriage. However, when it comes to censoring materials due to language, themes, and content based on age, we simply don't do it.

Sure, TV has a guideline about what is age appropriate (and mind you, that is a relatively new concept that not many even notice), but 90% of parents doesn't care at all. In a way, I only encountered the age appropriate concept when I entered the internet and understood standards western society (of which Croatia is actually a part of yet doesn't seem to apply this) seems to have. There are many things by those standards that would be entirely inappropriate for certain ages and at the same time, I'm aware that this is by what internet and media taught me and not my own surroundings. It also creates a discrepancy in my own thinking in a way where when I recommend something online, I actually pay attention if something is age appropriate while I don't do that in everyday life. It just fascinates me in a way as something simply different that morphed my own way of thinking to a degree.

Like I said earlier, you'd have to go someway to improve on the fine filth used by Irvine Welsh in some of his stuff.

I'll try. Thanks.

 

[J Riff]

I agree with Ray. I would not use any swearing, and haven't. It could cost you readers and I can't see it impressing anyone in any signifigant way.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

I can't take anyone seriously as a reader or writer if they wilt in the presence of the Naughty Words, oh those terrible pernicious and foul things that they are. The inability of an adult to handle the language as used is far more indicative of a juvenile mindset than any writer using the word f*ck in their novel.

 

[Zebra Wizard]

I can't take anyone seriously as a reader or writer if they wilt in the presence of the Naughty Words, oh those terrible pernicious and foul things that they are. The inability of an adult to handle the language as used is far more indicative of a juvenile mindset than any writer using the word f*ck in their novel.

I'm in the same boat. Especially in dialogue when even the author knows there needs to be profanity but decides to use made up words instead. This baffles me, because the reader knows what hes trying to say, but instead of using the correct and fitting words they shoehorn something else in that doesn't work.

But this maybe a culture thing. I'm british, so "swear" words are more often in a positive manner or heightened expression. But at the end of the day, words are words, it just depends how you use them.

When it comes to publishing, theres plenty with and without naughty words, so I don't see anything wrong with going either way, maybe some editors dislike profanity also, but evidently there are plenty who do not mind.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I don't swear a lot in real life, but when I do--

My writing is the same. Swear words are very few and far between, but I'm writing real people, in my head, at least, and real people can say things like 'oh f**k when something bad happens.

One short story I wrote was littered with swearing because the MC was an ex-convict and he reflected the language of the prison. If I'd written him saying 'oh dear', he would have been a cardboard cut - out drawn by a four year old instead of a hulking great thug with a broken nose and scars!

If I'm writing a gentle romance (yes, I do write these -- I just don't show anyone!), or a YA, then there wouldn't be a swear word to be seen. Surely it depends on the target audience but also on the character and setting you're trying to bring alive?

 

[Ray McCarthy]

If done well it can be humourous, immersive, and authentic;

However I've seen that vanishingly rarely.

 

[Toby Frost]

Not the *@~#~ing grimdark argument again...

 

[J D Foster]

I feel like there is already enough swearing in the world without me adding more. I don't use the harsher curse words in my stories at all. I do find it hard to write what I feel are realistic "low lifes" without the use of at least some mild swears.

I foolishly started writing a story set on a prison hullk and then realised that I couldn't have hundreds of gnarled rough edged prisoner's who said things like "pardon me old boy, terribly sorry have bumped into you just now."

Its just the way things have changed isn't it? Everything about modern life is more graphic than say in the fifties, but possibly not as graphic as it was in medieval times? I recall Chaucer has some shockingly graphic parts to the miller's tale. Things I wouldn't dream of writing...

I wonder if Sci Fi tends to have less swearing as it is written and enjoyed by the more cerebral members of society? Everyone else is watching the Real housewives of somewhere aren't they?

 

[Ursa major]

The presence of swearing in normal people's speech is, I would argue, not that relevant. Let me explain.

When we write dialogue, we usually aren't documenting what people would really say -- not, at any rate, every sound they make while speaking -- but what we feel is the most effective way of delivering something to the reader (whether that something is, say, the information contained in the dialogue, or putting across the character of the speaker, or giving an indication of the emotional or mental state of the speaker). If we take this approach (and, in the case of other aspects of dialogue, we are encouraged to take it), we should ask ourselves what purpose each and every swear word serves (just as we should** ask why every word in the dialogue is there). So if it's important that a swear word should be there, then it ought to be (unless the target audience is such that (certain) swear words would not be acceptable*** at all). And the appropriate -- appropriate to the effect required AND to the character speaking it -- swear word should be used.

Based on the above, I would argue for minimising the use of swear words, partly because they lose their effectiveness -- even tend towards becoming invisible -- if they keep popping up every few words. It is effectiveness that we should be seeking, and this is best served by verisimilitude rather than out-and-out realism. I think a reasonable analogy is the use of dialect words: use them enough to give the reader a sense of its presence; limit their use so that their presence doesn't become more important than what the words are trying to convey (UNLESS that really is the most important thing in that particular bit of dialogue).


By the way, the same is true of the narration. In a purely omniscient narrative, one would expect the swearing to be very limited or entirely absent, unless the author wishes to give a proper character to that omniscient narrator. But in First Person and Close Third Person, one might expect to see some swearing, though possibly less than in the dialogue, as people to tend to be a bit more formal when committing their thoughts to paper/digital storage (only possibly, because the author might want the narration to come across as a verbal retelling).


** - We should, but some of us find it hard to write (and edit) in such a controlled way.

*** - Obviously this depends on all sorts of things, so it's a matter of knowing one's audience (and what your prospective agent/publisher thinks about such things).

 

[Ihe]

I agree with @Ursa major. Cussing basically amounts to filler most of the times. When writing concise dialogue and later editing for word-content efficiency, swear words will be scraped to the barest minimum 95% of the time. When you edit, you'll find taking out the swear word from the dialogue will change nothing most of the time. In which case it means that that word was cruft.

What message/content/nuance do swear words convey that can't be done in a more concise manner? Insulting someone else with a generic swear word is kinda bland if you wanna do meaningful writing, and conduct will often do a better job portraying surprise, toughness, obscenity, discourtesy, impudence, lack of education or income or functional family life as you'll have to show it, making writing tighter. Cussing is a bit of a cheat, as it feels more like telling, IMO ("this MC talks dirty, so he must be a crook. Characterization done, moving on..."). The thing is, cussing is not the domain of thugs and lowlifes anymore. Everyone partakes in it nowadays, from upstanding citizens to children to intellectuals. It's not special. Its true meaning and anti-establishment and uneducated vibe has been lost.

I'm not saying cussing doesn't have its place depending on very specific story settings, but it's a small place, at least in SF&F IMO. As I said before, it's just another taste in the menu. But in genre, it's a taste very few will miss if it wasn't there.

 

[Hex]

Sometimes swearing just feels right. It adds emphasis, it changes the rhythm of the dialogue, it expresses surprise in a particular way. My characters swear, some of them more than others.

Even Mrs Weasley used the odd bad word.

 

[Toby Frost]

For anyone writing pseudo-medieval fantasy, it’s worth pointing out that swearing in those days was very different, because different things were taboo. Descriptions of sex and going to the toilet were crude and simple, but anything religious would be considered very serious (Cromwell’s England, that jolly place, had specific punishments for blaspheming and I'm sure plenty of others did too). The comical “Zounds!”, as used by swashbuckling types, was really “God’s wounds!” and as such carried more weight than we might think. The trouble is that most swearing along these lines tends to sound a bit daft to modern ears (“By Grabthar’s hammer!”).

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think the big thing missing in a lot of these posts is the 'in my opinion' statement.

In my opinion, as a close character writer, it can add a lot. Some of my characters swear a lot. A streetwise teen, forced to be tough to survive and invasion, in Belfast to boot - he can't not swear. It would be completely unrealistic. It would be laughably so, the worst fudge imaginable. Taking the swear words out of his dialogue - and thoughts - would change him completely.

But my political space president? She swears very little, if at all.

This isn't something I sit down and plan. It's simply what the characters are. So, what it adds, for me, is character. And that's what my books are all about.

There are two sides to this argument, neither is right or wrong, both opinions are valid. For those who don't wish to swear, don't (but don't be surprised if it feels unrealistic to some readers and they walk away - others will love it), for those who wish to, do so. Of course, think about it - every line of John, my swearing teen (who isn't that bad - he says other words much more often than his curse words)'s dialogue has been reviewed, betaed, edited (by three different editors, including a YA specialist agent), reviewed again and they stand. That's what he'd say. In my opinion, as a character writer, they add to the character and the book and they absolutely need to be there. Since I'm the writer, and he's my creation, and talking in my head, no one else can know that. Only me. To be told that it's wrong, and I've got him wrong is a bit - um - worrisome. To be told, in someone's opinion they'd have preferred him without the swearing, I can live with that.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Yeah, what Jo said....

 

[J D Foster]

I agree with @Ursa major. Cussing basically amounts to filler most of the times. When writing concise dialogue and later editing for word-content efficiency, swear words will be scraped to the barest minimum 95% of the time. When you edit, you'll find taking out the swear word from the dialogue will change nothing most of the time. In which case it means that that word was cruft.

I have a dodgy character in my current wip. I have been feeling that he had too many (albeit soft) swear words. I'm going to have a go at removing some to try out your idea.

The thing is, cussing is not the domain of thugs and lowlifes anymore. Everyone partakes in it nowadays, from upstanding citizens to children to intellectuals. It's not special. Its true meaning and anti-establishment and uneducated vibe has been lost.

I do think that (how to put this tactfully) that less fortunate people swear more. We rarely swear in our house and when we do it will be soft swears. It is far more commonplace these days than say 30 years ago. All the more reason to cut it out of my stories I feel.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

do think that (how to put this tactfully) that less fortunate people swear more. We rarely swear in our house and when we do it will be soft swears. It is far more commonplace these days than say 30 years ago. All the more reason to cut it out of my stories I feel.

Not in my neck of the woods, I'm afraid. Swearing - just... is. It's an expression, nothing more. It's one whose appropriateness you judge. I rarely swear in public, if at all. I don't say much worse than 'butt' in front of my kids - who are getting up now, anyway. I don't swear in front of my mother, or at work. But in the company of friends who I know it doesn't offend (because they're just as bad) - heck, yes. And those friends include social workers, teachers, doctors, managers, accountants....

But I am aware as a nation the Irish, North and South, are fairly tolerant of it. But, in my experience, all levels of society swear here - although some are more discreet than others (which is, I think, sometimes governed by people's jobs. I'm certainly more circumspect because I'm in a professional role)

 

[Ihe]

I think the big thing missing in a lot of these posts is the 'in my opinion' statement.

A-ha! I got 2 "IMO"s in my last post here, so I walk away scot-free!

Ofc it's not wrong if cussing comes with the character and setting calls for it. As long as it's not the defining trait of the character's personality and invades and interrupts every line of dialogue, it can be justified and done right. Don't get me wrong, I will use some swear words here and there in writing, but after careful consideration. Not everyone has proper criteria when sprinkling their work with profanity. And I imagine close character studies play by different rules when concerning swearing, so I'll abide by more experienced opinions on this part.

It's just that swear words are kinda incompatible with the crisp, direct, no-nonsense writing concepts I've been drilled with in SF, where all that matters is efficiently conveying content. Some nuance can come with cussing, granted, but even if I write it into the story, by the end of an intense self-editing session, I find I've scraped nearly all the cussing and summed up the intended nuance with some behavioural line. I love irreverent characters. I think everyone does, but I still don't know if cussing can be part of the MC's essence to the extent some writers go with it, and many works cannot justify such intense foulmouthedness.

PS: IMO. There, all fixed up.