Crowdfunding...

[Ray McCarthy]

I'm happy to name the whisky my characters drink

I'll test it if you like?

I went to a blind "tasting" of USA, various Scotch and various Irish. I didn't think I'd like the USA stuff, though I'd never tried it. It was easily recognised and I didn't like it.

 

[Boneman]

Its not crowdfunding but I live in the place where most of the Scotch whisky is made (I think it has nearly half of the distilleries). I've noticed my characters drink a lot of malt so I've just drafted a letter to some of the still locally owned distilleries to see if I can get sponsorship. I'm happy to name the whisky my characters drink - heck I'd do it for a bottle of their 16 year .... or actually if they stock the book in their shop.

Yeah, product placement, excellent idea. I mentioned Marmite in my book, but nothing yet...

 

[The Big Peat]

It feels like taking before I've worked for it.

Is that any different to taking an advance from a publisher, something that I feel most people here wouldn't baulk at should they be offered one?

I don't see why writers shouldn't take money up front, particularly not if that ends up as more money for them. As long as there are happy customers at the end of the day, then the money is earned honestly, and earning money through writing is difficult enough as is without turning down opportunities.

And I don't think that taking money from crowd-funding (or indeed an advance) means you have to quit the day job either. As long as the book is with the person paying for it at the agreed time, what the author does as well as that is nobody's business but theirs.

Which is not to say I'm advocating doing crowd-funding. But I don't think there's anything wrong with it, the same way I see nothing wrong with the fact some restaurants have me pay at the end and some at the beginning and a few ask for a deposit just to book a table there to begin with.

I am dubious about the idea that doing a Kickstarter is better for an author than simply writing the book and selling it mind.



I see Patreon as a very different thing; it's a tip jar and/or a subscription to monthly shizzle, instead of Kickstarter/IndieGoGo, which is more paying up front.

I think to do it successfully, you need to be doling out monthly shizzle. Short stories, early drafts, little character pieces you wrote which will never go in and deleted scenes... I might consider chipping into a Patreon for that. If a writer is churning out that sort of stuff anyway, why not see if someone wants to pay money for it?

Elsewise, it is just a tip jar, and that gets slightly awkward because a) People are already paying for your work (unlike webcomic artists) and b) There's not really an etiquette on tipping authors. Given the hideously low price most books go for these days, maybe that should change but it's new ground and I'd feel iffy doing it myself. But would equally consider tips for authors I liked.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Is that any different to taking an advance from a publisher, something that I feel most people here wouldn't baulk at should they be offered one?

I think so. The publisher is "spread betting" across many authors and if they are not "winning" they go out of business. it's part of their business model (like an advance when signing a pop group). It's not at all the same as taking money off individuals (who are often not business savvy), the majority of indie go go or kickstarter proposals are not viable. if it's not a curated "crowdfunding" site it quickly attracts scammers, fake snake oil salesmen etc too.
I also think people crowdfunding weddings, honeymoons, holidays, random purchase of gadgets etc as exploitive, selfish and greedy. I am mystified why people donate to these selfish causes when there are so many actually deserving charities.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

how does Patreon differ from Kickstarter, btw? If there was a model I thought most viable, it would be that one. I produce stuff on a weekly basis through the blog, but I've mostly seen that as an exposure thing (and I like blogging.)

 

[thaddeus6th]

I could be wrong, but I think Kickstarter is about funding specific projects, whereas Patreon is more a sort of subscription approach (so, in a writing perspective, those who subscribe might get extra backstory to a world, or maybe free short stories).

 

[The Big Peat]

People asking for money for their wedding or honeymoon is, imo, a completely different kettle of fish to people selling their product and should not be mentioned in the same breath.

And, as someone who's lumped into plenty of Kickstarters, and keeps a close eye on the RPG community in general (which is rife with them), I would say I simply don't recognise what you're talking about in terms of unaware consumers, unviable proposals, and scammers as if it was anything like standard practice. Particularly the first and last - which is not to say they don't happen, but are exceedingly rare, and should not be held up as the norm. Overly ambitious proposals, well there's been a few of those and I know some who've been burned, but that's still rare.

More to the point, there is no reason that has to happen to any individual Kickstarter. There is no reason people can't be completely and totally professional about what they do with it, which is the norm, and do well with it. It is up to the person to running it to make it so. I would like to think everyone here would be capable of running a perfectly acceptable Kickstarter that gave people what they pay for and I would be insulting people otherwise.

how does Patreon differ from Kickstarter, btw? If there was a model I thought most viable, it would be that one. I produce stuff on a weekly basis through the blog, but I've mostly seen that as an exposure thing (and I like blogging.)

With Patreon, I'd be making a standing order to pay the sum of X to someone a month. In return, I get stuff for them (usually concept art, since most of the Patreons I'm considering are web comic artists). It's a constant income flow in exchange for constant stuff.

With Kickstarter, it's a one off payment for a one-off product. An extreme version of pre-ordering, to look at it another way.

Personally, I wouldn't turn a blog into a Patreon. Partly that's because I don't think the increase in funds would be worth the limited exposure you get from making the blog pay to access, and partly because I can't see a standard blog attracting that much interest. I think something above and beyond might be worth considering.


Ah! One thing I have thought of where a Kickstarter might be useful is for an established e-book author who's looking for whatever reason to have the book printed as paperback/hardback. In that case, there's relatively little risk (as the product already exists, just a matter of conversion), but the costs of doing a big enough run to make it worthwhile would be pretty high straight up for relatively little guaranteed return. A Kickstarter would a) guarantee the author's return as it would only go through if enough people wanted it and b) gives them the funds for a print-run before hand.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

@The Big Peat - Personally, I wouldn't turn a blog into a Patreon. Partly that's because I don't think the increase in funds would be worth the limited exposure you get from making the blog pay to access, and partly because I can't see a standard blog attracting that much interest. I think something above and beyond might be worth considering.

This, for me, would be the killer with it. Would I be in danger of having to produce so much stuff for Patreon that I don't have time to write the books. I think that's the real danger coming out here, that it's another time-drain.

(I should just say, btw, to everyone that I'm not sitting here planning to crowdfund myself. But I do like to be educated about the options available.)

 

[The Big Peat]

I completely agree and think it would only really make sense for one of the two following:

a) People who creating all day every day. They have time to take on small projects like that and probably do need every possible income stream.

b) People who just naturally create a lot of excess product anyway.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

a) People who creating all day every day. They have time to take on small projects like that and probably do need every possible income stream.

b) People who just naturally create a lot of excess product anyway.

KDP and Smashwords make even more sense if you are creating every day and have a lot of "excess product". Assuming any is worth reading. People with volume are at an advantage with eBook publishing.

 

[Tim Murray]

I'm resurrecting this thread. One of the things first mooted was that this sort of funding didn't suit individual authors, yet
I noted on Kameron Hurley's website she links to Patreon. This, despite making 50k at writing last year (according to her own figures.) which shows that some writers are finding it working for them). There does not appear to be a backlash. It seems to becoming the accepted way to go forwards - as if those who don'd are missing out on the current trend.

I find myself in two minds. On the one hand, I'd like more time to write and, like most of us here, that time is squeezed amongst work and life. But, I have great support out there and would, perhaps, be the sort of writer who could benefit from something like this.

But it feels wrong. It feels like taking before I've worked for it. It feels like asking individuals to pay my wages, instead of the outcome of my graft. I also wonder if, as a trend, it's coming close to saturation. (To be open and upfront, I don't support others through crowdfunding, but buy their book instead. There are so many, every day, on every platform, I'm being asked to donate and I simply can't.) I'd hate for anyone to feel they Should support me, even if they are stretched to do so.

But, on the other hand, money does trickle down from it via writers to cover artists, to copy editors etc. It does, perhaps, provide income the arts need and a new business model.

On the other side of the coin, I have applied for grants to support my writing (but know it is unlikely they'll go to genre writers in NI) and have no problem with that) and wonder why it feels different.

I find this a real dilemma, one that is relevant to all of us, given the prominence of crowdfunding. My head says I should look into crowdfunding more closely. My heart says no. Mostly, though, I trust my gut.

But what do others think? Am I mad not to go for it? Or right to listen to my instincts?

Been there and bought the T-shirt!!! I did a lot of research before I crafted my campaign. I saw some books and proposals get funded. But it's a crap shoot, IMO. I even saw a "proposed" trip to china get fully funded, with only a promised product. I think my proposal was too grand and I asked for and offered too much for the perks. The more modest requested funding, and offered perks seemed to get the best response. Good fortune in your quest!

 

[Gonk the Insane]

I mentioned Marmite in my book, but nothing yet...

Give them time. They probably haven't decided whether they hate the publicity or love it yet

 

[pambaddeley]

Had a look at the writing link on Patreon and it seems some at least are writing co-operatives who produce chapters on a regular basis as a kind of serial. People who subscribe do so at various tiers, getting more goodies at each tier. At least one I looked at said it was like a TV series and the 'book' didn't have to end as long as people wanted more of it!

So I'm sharing Jo's scepticism and reservations about this for individual authors who are time poor.

 

[pambaddeley]

Oh and an individual writer produces short stories and novellas and one of the goodies that subscribers who pay a certain level can get is a video of her actually writing ......

 

[Charles Parkes]

Been there and bought the T-shirt!!! I did a lot of research before I crafted my campaign. I saw some books and proposals get funded. But it's a crap shoot, IMO. I even saw a "proposed" trip to china get fully funded, with only a promised product. I think my proposal was too grand and I asked for and offered too much for the perks. The more modest requested funding, and offered perks seemed to get the best response. Good fortune in your quest!

Very helpful advice for those of us looking to hear from people who've given it a go! Thanks : )
I'm semi-tempted to have a look at crowd funding for my sequel - figuring that if I'm writing content, short character pieces and commissioning artwork, potentially I can work these in to the perk/patron systems on these sites (but still feeling very daunted about giving it a go).

 

[The Big Peat]

If you are thinking of giving it a go, a useful exercise is to go look at the Patreons of several people doing the sort of thing you'd like to be doing, work out a rewards scheme yourself and be very sure you can produce that each month.

Then, start collecting the rewards for a good 3 months (6 would probably be better) before you even launch. That way, if something comes up, you've got a good buffer. Obviously you're still producing your monthly supply so the buffer stays there indefinitely, and you release what's timely and what not, but always having a buffer can be the difference between being the professional who always fulfils his promises to his fans, and the amateur with a gnawing sensation in his stomach going "Oh gods oh gods are they going to kill me".

 

[Charles Parkes]

Then, start collecting the rewards for a good 3 months (6 would probably be better) before you even launch. That way, if something comes up, you've got a good buffer. Obviously you're still producing your monthly supply so the buffer stays there indefinitely, and you release what's timely and what not, but always having a buffer can be the difference between being the professional who always fulfils his promises to his fans, and the amateur with a gnawing sensation in his stomach going "Oh gods oh gods are they going to kill me".

Thanks. This is a really useful suggestion and one that hadn't even slightly occurred to me : )

 

[Adrian Christopher]

Jo, a writer friend in England recommended a website called Unbound.

It is a site that specialises in crowdfunding of books. I have no personal experience of using it, but it looks pretty exciting if you are considering going down that route.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Jo, a writer friend in England recommended a website called Unbound.

It is a site that specialises in crowdfunding of books. I have no personal experience of using it, but it looks pretty exciting if you are considering going down that route.

Interesting link, thank you. I had looked at them before and had some concerns not answered in their FAQ* (and their lack of response to questions asked concerns me a lot)


1. How much do I get paid, when, and is it only the amount to fund the book. Where is my profit in it? How much do they get to keep vs what I do
2. That they tie down editorial services. Frankly, I'd rather use editors I'm familiar with and trust to know my thinking - so @Boneman @Teresa Edgerton @TheDustyZebra - than use an editor I know nothing about and I'm not sure they allow that.
3. 10 months from point of sourcing to the book coming out is pretty long for me. I can turn around a sp book in about 4, once it's complete. In fact, 4 is luxurious and gives me time to twiddle my toes.

So, I suppose, in short, I'm wondering what exactly they do offer over and above what's already out there, except the convenience of having it all in the same place. It's a nice looking site with good testimonials, though, so my questions might not be anything to worry about.

*for context, I have three books out in the wild, two with a publisher, one self published, so I'm not coming at this as a first-book project, and might a. not need as much hand-holding as they're offering or b be too independently minded to relinquish the control they seem to be seeking**

**which, actually, I think is a positive thing as they're obviously upholding internal quality standards and not just publishing anything.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

It's sobering that one has to sell about 400 to 500 copies of an eBook to "crowd fund" a professional final edit & proof and professional cover.
Still I'm committed to up dating existing SP eBooks when mistakes are found, or if there are sales to have it done professionally.