If white people were described like people of colour in books

[TheDustyZebra]

I'm afraid that a work of fiction utilizing the Von Luschan Scale or the Fitzpatrick Scale for skin descriptions would score very low indeed on the J. Evans Pritchard scale.

But I'm tempted, nevertheless.

 

[Ursa major]

What has this got to do with books or writing - which is specifically what this thread's about as reminded several times.

Actually, it has everything to do with books and writing, and on a number of fronts.

First of all, it's the same sort of problem that any word that means different things in different places brings: the information contained in the word is, inevitably, misunderstood by some readers. (Some examples -- met before in other threads -- which aren't so loaded: vest; pants; chip(s); biscuit; momentarily...).

Secondly.... While we, as writers, can (in theory) get around this by being very specific about a character's ethnicity -- although we have to be careful that we don't confuse ethnicity with nationality** (or even a region of a country) -- it rather falls down if we have narratives that are closely bound to characters in the book (whether first person narrators or PoV characters), because they may not have the knowledge or vocabulary to use the precise words (or even know that they're missing a difference about which some readers might know... or think they know).


** - Even assuming that the setting is on Earth, or a place that closely resembles it, down to having the same countries.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

I'm afraid that a work of fiction utilizing the Von Luschan Scale or the Fitzpatrick Scale for skin descriptions would score very low indeed on the J. Evans Pritchard scale.

But I'm tempted, nevertheless.

Well, lots of SF writers try to sneak maths into their writing or engineering. That's boring sh*te to me, so seeing an overly technical description of skin pigment would strike me as type VI humour.

 

[Mirannan]

Ursa - The comedian Jasper Carrott made a sketch out of that sort of misunderstanding; it was hilarious. One thing I did learn from it is that in Australia, Durex is a brand of sticky tape.

I find it interesting that American English diverged from British English starting before independence - but now they are converging again, undoubtedly because of modern communications and the film and TV industries.

 

[allmywires]

I was reading a book recently where I thought the author was going a bit overboard with the description of one of the characters - pale/pure/lilywhite/milky/marbled/sensitive skin and I think it's a very interesting thought about what exactly drives a writer to use that sort of imagery. In this case I think it was very much of a fetishisation (or to use a less extreme word) of the character, who is very innocent and virginal, thus the very un-inventive parallel.

I've had a few thoughts about this, which might or might not build into something coherent.

One was that I wondered if people choose food metaphors (where they do: I can't say I've come across many) because there aren't many other ways of differentiating between exact shades of brown that many readers would be familiar with. Who, for example, would know how beech wood compared to oak in colour? Or raw umber versus burnt umber, etc?

Having said that, I don't know why writers would feel the need to be so exact about the colour of a character's skin (or hair, or hat) unless it was particularly striking to the POV character. But when using food, that raises the problem of why the viewpoint character thinks of someone else's skin in those terms? It suggests the desire to taste, and this could be romantic or creepy, depending on context. What it isn't is neutral. (Even before taking into account the thing about commodities.)

Someone in the thread's previous incarnation raised the example of "peaches and cream" to describe a white skin, but I think that's equally non-neutral. Would anyone use it of a male character, for example? I can't see that happening (though I'd be happy to be pointed towards examples). And if it's used only of women, rather than men who share the exact same skin-tone, why?

In a writing context, I think the key thing is to be aware, especially when editing, of what your choice of words might be conveying, chiefly about the POV character.

^^ or, in more eloquent terms, this exactly.

 

[Denise Tanaka]

Although as writers we should not shy away from portraying characters of various ethnicities. The problem is when the labeling, such as "Asian" is used as a shortcut to avoid the work of actual character development. That's when it becomes offensive, if you write a 2-D cartoon character who behaves a certain way because he/she comes from such-and-such. If one does the homework, however, it can be a powerful tool. Ethnicity and cultural heritage can shape a character's composition not just because of where they come from but how the society stereotypes them. Instead of shying away from issues, it can be an opportunity to confront issues with honesty and compassion.

 

[The Bluestocking]

Cheers for the recommendation - I'll take a look.

It's interesting to see that Lee Child tends to describe skin colour for all his characters - white is not used as a default, either.

Hmm... yes, interesting note about Child. Now that I think about it, he only really uses the actual colour term like "black" or "hispanic" + height and size and in a very quick sketch, then moves back to the action. He does notice women's features *ahem* a bit more but when I read it, I do have to give a wry smile and think: "Ah. So is that how straight men assess women's attractiveness?" (and none of that "Score her from 1 to 10" nonsense).

Another author who is good at depicting diversity is Benedict Jacka - his world of mages and adepts are peopled with everyone from Asians (South and East) to Middle Eastern people to Caucasians (though he does state if they are Eastern European etc). It's usually a quick skin colour mention like "tan" or "dark". Maybe a distinguishing feature like a scar or baldness that sets the character apart from their cohorts (mages and adepts seem to always run in pairs or packs in his world).

Cassandra Clare (yes, I see a few eyerolls here) also does diversity well though her descriptions are pretty Romance-Novel type sometimes (though I suspect that's why her male protagonists seem to be prime Book Boyfriend fodder). I like that one of her most popular characters (Magnus Bane) is Southeast Asian and that one of her male protagonists (Jem Carstairs) is half-Chinese. She didn't just call them "Southeast Asian" or "Half-Asian". She specified where they are from (Magnus Bane = Indonesia; Jem Carstairs = Shanghai, China) and with Jem, she specified "half-Chinese".

 

[Ursa major]

She specified where they are from (Magnus Bane = Indonesia; Jem Carstairs = Shanghai, China) and with Jem, she specified "half-Chinese".

Not that saying that someone "comes from Indonesia", a very large and populous country spread out over countless islands, is a precise guide to their ethnicity**.... Though this descrption is, of course, more precise than many of the terms we've been discussing.


After my father retired (at 65), he carried on working, but as a consultant. (He was an engineer specialising in rolling mills, and his expertise and long experience was very useful to companies that wanted to buy second-hand mills and had to be sure that these could be successfully adapted to their new... er... roles ). His best customer was a company based in eastern*** Java, but most of the people he met there were from China, or descendants of recent migrants from China****. (Not all "non-indigenous" Indonesians are of Chinese ethnicity: people have come to the country from all over the place.) Obviously, most -- but not all -- of the other people he met would have been Javanese.


** - At the risk of 'teaching my grandmother to suck eggs', using a not always reliable text book -- but realising that not every Chronner knows everything -- Wikipedia states:

Indonesia is a very ethnically and linguistically diverse country, with around 300 distinct native ethnic groups, and 742 different languages and dialects.

*** - So nowhere near Krakatoa....

**** - Some had, if I recall correctly, adopted more "Indonesian-sounding" names.

 

[galanx]

Another example is Neil Gaiman's "Anansi Boys" where all but one of the main characters are of black Caribbean descent, but he never mentions their colour. The only non-black main character, Daisy Day, is of Ethiopian/Hong Kong Chinese mix, which is talked about as part of her background.

 

[Phyrebrat]

I can't comment on minorities who are not of Afro-Carribean descent, but as someone whose social circle and work life consists majorly of black people, I'd say this: The terms mocha, coffee, honey, chocolate, molasses, brown sugar, treacle etc are widely used as badges of pride or desirability amongst them. Consider the immense catalogue of soul music with names of such sweet food in the title.

I recall someone posting a similar link years ago and the feeling I got from the blog post was that it was more about their own awkwardness with their whiteness than anything else.

As a writer you write from your standpoint with sympathy and empathy, and intelligence. If you can't do that, it's something that hopefully your betas will flag up.

I have many African characters in my writing. I'd be happy to justify my use of describing - for example - Ayo, as having honey skin, if someone called me on it.

pH

 

[Zebra Wizard]

Not that saying that someone "comes from Indonesia", a very large and populous country spread out over countless islands, is a precise guide to their ethnicity**.... Though this descrption is, of course, more precise than many of the terms we've been discussing.

These kinds of nationality statements cannot be used for general observation unless your POV/narrator is ignorant or would do it themselves.

It's the same as saying, that person looks Irish or that person looks British. It's not a description. As I said previously ethnic grouping is purely visual where nationality is not. The same if you pointed out someone as a chinese man when you don't know who they are.

This is ofcourse fine if the POV already knows their nationality or it is revealed.

 

[Idealect]

I've always disliked food descriptions of skin colour but the non-sweet and mundane ones almost ruin the analogy in my mind. In my memory it has always been exotic and sweet foods used (which is kind of the complaint isn't it: that it's fetishisation? and sometimes not in the more general sense). I mean perhaps those are only the ones that have irritated me enough to remember, but then again I can't imagine an author choosing to write "brown like a somewhat burnt lasagne crust" or "like (brown) bread" (or something way better I don't seem to be coming up with, but in the same vein)


Looking at those quotes I find it hilarious that most of the white foods that aren't just failing the analogy are extremely plain, default, straightforwardly nice foods. Vanilla, cauliflower, marzipan, mozarella to some extent, and apple -if you take out the embellishment of suckity-suck-suck-lumpiness-not-niceness. (do white people even have lumpy skin?)

The offensive (not a fan of the word, but it'll do) ones that don't fail the analogy, or don't really work, tend to be lasicivious by analogy to gluttony, or mixed feelings of unhealthy eating (and perhaps partial disgust): glazed donut, mayonnaise, chicken (I certainly {used to} eat chicken like a glutton). That is, they are consumed rather than appreciated and savored.

I'm not sure if this is an artifact of the way these have been drawn up or if it actually corresponds to anything (I might also be wrong, but that isn't a source of uncertainty) But if it holds, then the takeaway might be that if you're going to be fetishising skin to be doing so in the broader sense: to taste the skin lightly in your mind (or even not at all!) rather than running your tongue all down their... your-imagination-them-arm.



edit: (I did not read the post by allmywires which used the word fetishisation before i posted this. interesting convergence. edit: or the post by phyrebat mentioning sweetness. I'm pretty surprised.)

 

[tinkerdan]

As with everything else; if something is written well these kind of things don't show up.

 

[The Bluestocking]

Not that saying that someone "comes from Indonesia", a very large and populous country spread out over countless islands, is a precise guide to their ethnicity**.... Though this descrption is, of course, more precise than many of the terms we've been discussing.


After my father retired (at 65), he carried on working, but as a consultant. (He was an engineer specialising in rolling mills, and his expertise and long experience was very useful to companies that wanted to buy second-hand mills and had to be sure that these could be successfully adapted to their new... er... roles ). His best customer was a company based in eastern*** Java, but most of the people he met there were from China, or descendants of recent migrants from China****. (Not all "non-indigenous" Indonesians are of Chinese ethnicity: people have come to the country from all over the place.) Obviously, most -- but not all -- of the other people he met would have been Javanese.


** - At the risk of 'teaching my grandmother to suck eggs', using a not always reliable text book -- but realising that not every Chronner knows everything -- Wikipedia states:

*** - So nowhere near Krakatoa....

**** - Some had, if I recall correctly, adopted more "Indonesian-sounding" names.

1. It still feels much more specific to me since I live in a country right next door to Indonesia and there's plenty of cross-border migration across the Straits of Malacca.

2. The Javanese do have Chinese blood - the result of centuries of trade migration from China to Southeast Asia. Magnus Bane (or at least the depiction of him on book covers, in the movie, in the TV show, and in my head before anything else) always looked like he was Javanese with Chinese blood in him.

3. In Indonesia, it is the law of the land to have an Indonesian name regardless of your ethnicity (and as is pointed out - there are hundreds of ethnicities within the same country).

 

[Toby Frost]

Years ago I read an Isaac Asimov novel in which some colonists had declared independence from Earth. They were described as having olive skin. Because they were from space, and I hadn't heard the phrase before, I assumed that they were bright green, like an olive. It was years before I realised that they weren't.

 

[Ursa major]

1. It still feels much more specific to me since I live in a country right next door to Indonesia and there's plenty of cross-border migration across the Straits of Malacca.

I live near the coast. Travel due south and one soon reaches France. Telling me that someone is French says nothing about their ethnicity (although the likelihood would be that they were whatever ethnicity we would consider "indigenous" French people to fit within).

If one wants the reader to know what ethnicity a character is, telling them the character's nationality is no longer enough. And if one wants one's readers to know what a character looks like, by far the best option is to describe what they look like, and not rely solely on the (probably stereotypical) images that an ethnicity (let alone a nationality) would evoke. Of course, if it is a character's nationality that is important, by all means state what it is.

2. The Javanese do have Chinese blood - the result of centuries of trade migration from China to Southeast Asia.

Isn't that a rather sweeping, yet imprecise, statement? Do we assume a Javanese character must have some Chinese forbears (though why would or should we)? Do all people defined as Javanese have Chinese blood (which would seem unlikely**)?

3. In Indonesia, it is the law of the land to have an Indonesian name regardless of your ethnicity (and as is pointed out - there are hundreds of ethnicities within the same country).

All I know is that some of the people my father knew had names that sounded, to me at least, Chinese (which is where they, or their recent ancestors, had come from). Now it may be that these names are also thought of as Indonesian names (in the same way as someone with Lee as their surname might be Chinese, English, or Korean (or, given that names are not always a good guide to ethnic identity or nationality -- the name, Magnus Bane, being a rather obvious example of this -- anything, really.)


** - Until recent times, most people did not travel significant distances from the village where they were born. It seems rather far fetched than someone who's ancestors never moved very far from their village(s) in the interior of Java must have ancestors from China.

 

[The Bluestocking]

** - Until recent times, most people did not travel significant distances from the village where they were born. It seems rather far fetched than someone who's ancestors never moved very far from their village(s) in the interior of Java must have ancestors from China.

I take your points (which are all salient, including the fact that you probably can't exactly tell if someone with a certain nationality/citizenship is definitely of a certain ethnicity) but the explanation below is why I pictured Magnus Bane as Southeast Asian Chinese looking. It could be just me projecting and identifying with him, being that I am a Southeast Asian of Chinese descent myself but there's also that reason behind my assumption:

The Chinese who settled in Southeast Asian countries (including Indonesia) had their own immigrant communities (like the one I'm from - I'm 6th generation) and also - many also intermarried with the local people. So the Chinese traders, coolies etc went TO the countries and met the locals, not the other way around.

Trade has been robust between China and all the way south down the Pacific Rim to what used to be known as a the Spice archipelago/islands of Southeast Asia (including Indonesia and Malaya [now divided into Malaysia and Singapore]) for centuries. And the Chinese have a long history of travelling great distances for economic reasons. One common reason for leaving is due to the inheritance system - not only is it male-biased, but it's also biased towards the eldest son. So if you are one of several younger sons, you do not stand to inherit much (if anything) and must make your own way. If you had the misfortune of not having the ability to pass the exams needed to become a government bureaucrat or if you had no other route for advancement open to you, you migrated to where there would be a chance for you to make your own way (or even build a fortune). Many of them (including my great-great-great grandfather), chose to head to Southeast Asia to try their luck.

And Java and some parts of Indonesia did have an influx of Chinese immigrants over the centuries who intermarried in or settled down into immigrant enclaves. Those who intermarried called themselves the Nonya (or Baba Nonya) and there used to be large communities of them in both Indonesia (including Java) and Malaya. Southeast Asia has had a long history of being a melting pot in many ways.

So me saying that the Javanese do have Chinese blood may be imprecise but it would probably also be partially correct as several generations back in many families, someone may have intermarried. They don't have to be half or quarter Chinese - it could be that their great-great-great grandparent was Chinese... the same way some Indonesians may well have Dutch blood due to Indonesia being Dutch territory (in 1824, the British and the Dutch colonialist had a trade and colonial agreement dividing the spice islands - the Dutch got Indonesia and the British got Malaya and thus carve up the spice trade down that route as well as mine the natural resources of the countries concerned ranging from rubber plantations to tin mining).

Anyway, in current-day Indonesia all Indonesians born in Indonesia with Indonesian citizenship have Indonesian names even if they are ethnic Chinese. It's the law the same way all Malay Malaysians are automatically registered as Muslims. The Javanese your father met would probably have been recent Chinese migrants who are permanent residents who got to keep their Chinese names.

 

[Ursa major]

So the Chinese traders, coolies etc went TO the countries and met the locals, not the other way around.

I didn't suggest otherwise. But there's still an in-built assumption that people from China went to every corner of Java, which seems unlikely.

Trade has been robust between China and all the way south down the Pacific Rim to what used to be known as a the Spice archipelago/islands of Southeast Asia (including Indonesia and Malaya [now divided into Malaysia and Singapore]) for centuries. And the Chinese have a long history of travelling great distances for economic reasons.

So just like Arab traders. And Dutch ones, and those of any number of other trading peoples.

One common reason for leaving is due to the inheritance system - not only is it male-biased, but it's also biased towards the eldest son.

Which is very common amongst many peoples, hence the "one to be the heir, one to be the spare, one to join the military, one to join the church, etc..." meme.

So if you are one of several younger sons, you do not stand to inherit much (if anything) and must make your own way. If you had the misfortune of not having the ability to pass the exams needed to become a government bureaucrat or if you had no other route for advancement open to you, you migrated to where there would be a chance for you to make your own way (or even build a fortune). Many of them (including my great-great-great grandfather), chose to head to Southeast Asia to try their luck.

As did people from Europe.

And Java and some parts of Indonesia did have an influx of Chinese immigrants over the centuries who intermarried in or settled down into immigrant enclaves. Those who intermarried called themselves the Nonya (or Baba Nonya) and there used to be large communities of them in both Indonesia (including Java) and Malaya. Southeast Asia has had a long history of being a melting pot in many ways.

No-one is saying that this didn't happen, just that it's an assumption that it was in any way universal in terms of providing ancestors for people who are, in effect, indigenous to a place.

So me saying that the Javanese do have Chinese blood may be imprecise but it would probably also be partially correct...

So it's neither particularly useful** or, actually, correct.

...as several generations back in many families, someone may have intermarried. They don't have to be half or quarter Chinese - it could be that their great-great-great grandparent was Chinese... the same way some Indonesians may well have Dutch blood due to Indonesia being Dutch territory (in 1824, the British and the Dutch colonialist had a trade and colonial agreement dividing the spice islands - the Dutch got Indonesia and the British got Malaya and thus carve up the spice trade down that route as well as mine the natural resources of the countries concerned ranging from rubber plantations to tin mining).

No-one would deny all this; or that, if we go far enough back, all our ancestors come from somewhere in Africa. The point is that it isn't useful in the context of this thread, which is about how one describes (when one wants to) how people look.

The Javanese your father met would probably have been recent Chinese migrants who are permanent residents who got to keep their Chinese names.

I didn't suggest otherwise. In fact, I think this is likely to be the situation in most cases.

To cut a long story short: I take your points (which are all salient, including the fact that you probably can't exactly tell if someone with a certain nationality/citizenship is definitely of a certain ethnicity) but the explanation above is why I pictured Magnus Bane as Southeast Asian Chinese looking. It could be just me projecting and identifying with him, being that I am a Southeast Asian of Chinese descent myself but there's also that reason explained above for my assumption.

I think that this projection of yours -- something we all do -- is the problem (for writers). For instance, most people might not think that there was much movement of Chinese people into Java*** (other than in and around the port cities/towns). What you assume, most people would probably not. In fact, without a description of the character, the name mentioned would, with their nationality, suggest someone of (mainly, if not necessarily wholly) Dutch descent, not someone who had Chinese ancestors.


** - There is little point replacing stereotypical (and, potentially, offensive) physical descriptions with imprecise terms that mean different things to different people unless that is the intention (so that a wider number of people -- the kind of people who are less likely to embrace a character because that character isn't enough like them -- will identify with a character).

*** - Note that that I introduced the ethnic identity, Javanese, into the thread; the book you mentioned seemed to use the national identity, Indonesian.

 

[NbDawn]

I've read novels that gave a limited description of the characters and I've read some that go into great detail. Personally, I like the vagueness because I can fill in the blanks with my own imagination. If there's too much description, I lose track of who the person really is because I'm so busy trying to put together all the physical details of the character. Personally, I try to highlight only a few striking features of my characters. I believe this helps readers develop an image of the character, yet leaves much left to their imagination. I also think a distinct feature or two helps make each character unique. If I'm trying to distinguish a character of one race from another in my make-believe fantasy or sci-fi worlds, I may use skin color as a striking feature. But I'm pretty sure I don't use food references to describe them. I generally keep it simple by saying they have a light or dark complexion.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

Neil Gaiman has blooged about this recently, today I think.

Though I admire a lot of Mr. Gaiman's writing, I think his approach is a tad naive. Especially in the modern world with relatively easy travel so widely accessible, simply stating a character's country of origin isn't quite the guarantee of ethnicity it used to be. To further complicate matters, there are many countries that are fundamentally multi-ethnic states.