If white people were described like people of colour in books

[MWagner]

Put me in the camp who thinks detailed descriptions of character features are almost always a sign of clumsy writing. And in stories set in worlds different from our own - which accounts for most SF and Fantasy - there may simply be no analogues to Earth 2016 ethnicities anyway. Give the readers what they need to know about characters to bring them alive - their mannerisms and any striking characteristics - and let them fill in the rest with their own imagination.

 

[Denise Tanaka]

I can't comment on minorities who are not of Afro-Carribean descent, but as someone whose social circle and work life consists majorly of black people, I'd say this: The terms mocha, coffee, honey, chocolate, molasses, brown sugar, treacle etc are widely used as badges of pride or desirability amongst them. Consider the immense catalogue of soul music with names of such sweet food in the title.

I recall someone posting a similar link years ago and the feeling I got from the blog post was that it was more about their own awkwardness with their whiteness than anything else.

As a writer you write from your standpoint with sympathy and empathy, and intelligence. If you can't do that, it's something that hopefully your betas will flag up.

I have many African characters in my writing. I'd be happy to justify my use of describing - for example - Ayo, as having honey skin, if someone called me on it.

pH

I remember reading Toni Morrison's SONG OF SOLOMON and being struck at her descriptions of characters skin colors.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Another example is Neil Gaiman's "Anansi Boys" where all but one of the main characters are of black Caribbean descent, but he never mentions their colour. The only non-black main character, Daisy Day, is of Ethiopian/Hong Kong Chinese mix, which is talked about as part of her background.

Likewise my own Muezzinland.

 

[galanx]

Neil Gaiman has blooged about this recently, today I think.

Though I admire a lot of Mr. Gaiman's writing, I think his approach is a tad naive. Especially in the modern world with relatively easy travel so widely accessible, simply stating a character's country of origin isn't quite the guarantee of ethnicity it used to be. To further complicate matters, there are many countries that are fundamentally multi-ethnic states.

Don't see where he does this in the quote from the link- like the original questioner, I had a "default whiteness" switch; it took a while getting into the book for that to change.

 

[Montero]

I'm another one who always thought of olive as green.

I also find peaches and cream mind-jarring - as I picture a bowl of peaches and cream and the sliced peaches are orange.
"Rose" complexions also tend to make my wheels spin a little as I have to remember they probably mean pink. Not yellow, or scarlet, or mauve......

Thinking about my own writing (fantasy) I mainly do functional descriptions of people - as in a girl probably being a dairymaid as she was hefty (from all the hauling of buckets of milk and butter churning) and clean. (That coming from my re-enactment knowledge - there was more cleanliness in the past than people think. Especially around food preparation. They weren't daft.)
Or someone wearing a countrywoman's practical jacket and boots.

In terms of ethnicity, to me it is the society/culture that is of greatest importance, not the personal appearance. Maybe one is a signal for the other, but as others have effectively said, one size does not fit all - not all of one culture necessarily have the same ethnicity and vice versa. If I were to write something contemporary, I would hesitate a lot about writing people who were not from a culture I'd personally experienced as I suspect it wouldn't ring true. I do for example notice that when people write scientists, sometimes they get it quite wrong as to motivations, reactions and interests. (Someone who gets it really right is Julie Czerneda with her Migration Imperative series.) There is always a risk when writing outside your own experience, that however much research you do, it fails to work for someone who has the experience. (I am talking more about people than places, but even so, places can go wrong too.) I love Ben Aaronvitch's books for many things - including the window into other cultures. (I am assuming he has it right - I don't know.)

I don't exactly have a conclusion here, other than conscientiously trying to be multicultural, or multiethnic, in your writing, when you don't have the depth of understanding and experience of a culture/ethnic group strikes me as well intentioned, but rather fraught with problems.

And now I am back to colour and culture - so you don't want all your fantasy characters to be white. But do white and not-white come from different cultures? Or is everyone from the same culture but different colours? If the latter, then it is hitting the same point as describing blond, redhead or brunette.

 

[Maieius]

Another example is Neil Gaiman's "Anansi Boys" where all but one of the main characters are of black Caribbean descent, but he never mentions their colour. The only non-black main character, Daisy Day, is of Ethiopian/Hong Kong Chinese mix, which is talked about as part of her background.

This is surprising to me because reading this whole thread reminds me of how Neil Gaiman describes Hunter in Neverwhere - he frequently mentions her "caramel skin". Im only halfway through it so I don't know how much he continues this on, but I've read it around three or four times. It was very noticeable after the second time.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Here's an interesting article on writing Asian-American characters:
Dear Non-Asian Writer

Dear Non-Asian Writer of Asian American Characters,

I am delighted that you are including an Asian American character in your book, without hyphens and everything, too. You have my word that I will delve into your book, confident that you've done your best to be respectful, thoughtful, and diligent about your portrayal of Asian Americans and our varied experiences.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Btw, a quick reminder that this is not a thread about general social politics, but a discussion about writing issues. And one thing made clear in articles like these is that writing for Western consumption means having to think beyond having an all-white audience - and doing so with an air of authenticity.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I did raise a valid literary concern, however it was deleted with my whole post. I will try again without the context as otherwise this is just going to get deleted:

Quick Ben is a black character from Erickson's Malazan series. He is never described as black and when he finally is I found it quite a shock to my visual representation of him. This is not to say my opinion of him changed - more like finding out a name in fantasy is pronounced differently, I had to re-order my mental image.

Conversely the thread title makes an assumption that white people are not described like people of colour in books - this may be true from a western perspective but I would be interested in the cultural variance and how this plays out on a global literary stage.

Hoping this post doesn't get deleted because it doesn't subscribe to acceptance of the premise - surely discussion of this premise does not have to based around acceptance of this in a priori before discussion even begins?

If so I will just opt out and not bother with any further discussion.

 

[WaylanderToo]

Btw, a quick reminder that this is not a thread about general social politics, but a discussion about writing issues. And one thing made clear in articles like these is that writing for Western consumption means having to think beyond having an all-white audience - and doing so with an air of authenticity.

that was what I was, clumsily, trying to drive at. It strikes me that there is a growing thought that many minorities feel aggrieved when written about by a non-minority writer. Now by all means the old (and frankly often offensive) cliches that are trotted out are (I would imagine) relatively easy to avoid but when (if I understand the article correctly) you are being told that you cannot put yourself in a minority's shoes as you don't have the same cultural history what chance does that give you? You can't write about just your ethnic group as that is 'exclusive' but you can't include other ethnicities because you don't have a full understanding of their culture/history etc. If I am over/under-thinking this please let me know as I'm starting to get a little confused (not an unusual state of affairs to be honest!!)

 

[Montero]

@WaylanderToo

Yes. Good point.

A lot of writers try to put books in locations they've never actually visited - and some make it work better than others when you are talking about a real town or city, rather than one created specially for the book.

I mentioned earlier that some writers get the scientific mind-set wrong. (The TV series Numbers was one culprit.) But in general, there isn't then an offended group response from scientists. (Just eye rolling and binning usually ). As a scientist I am actually rather peeved in general with being demonised in some press reports and books - some have a tendency to portray scientists as causing all the world's problems and putting advances ahead of ethics. Also all scientists get lumped together whatever their discipline - and there is a big difference between say an environmentalist conducting a field study and a theoretical physicist. That kind of failure to distinguish details which are important inside a community is just the kind of thing that is offensive when describing an ethnic group.

Returning to ethnicity - we are in the main writing fantasy and science fiction - so the question here could be "how do you create convincing ethnic groups?"

So what makes a distinct ethnic identity?

Language? Religion? Cooking? Attitude to elders? Clothing? Attitude to each other? Music?

What do you need to invent for your subculture?

Incidentally, John Barnes in his Million Open Doors series has a lot of different cultures interacting - some deliberately invented, others extensions of existing cultures - anyone think of any other authors who give that kind of weight to social design?

 

[Brian G Turner]

surely discussion of this premise does not have to based around acceptance of this in a priori before discussion even begins?

The problem is that whenever sensitive subjects are raised, such as race, gender, and sexuality, it is the norm for white male heterosexuals to dominate - and dismiss - such discussion, even though they are the least qualified by default to have anything to say on such matters.

So by all means, if you are non-white person, feel free to share your experiences of identifying with depictions of your ethnicity in fiction. If you are a white person, feel free to discuss the challenges of depicting ethnicity in the fiction you are writing.

 

[MWagner]

For me, it's impossible to isolate this issue from the generalized use of stereotypes in all of our storytelling. Almost every book or movie published is rife with tropes. Jocks are dumb bullies. The rich are either spoiled brats or arrogant villains. Country folk are naive hicks or brutal rednecks. Brainy characters are physically weak and socially awkward. Cool guys have lumbering sidekicks. Girls have the romantic choice between the bland nice guy and the moody bad boy. Wise old men. California stoners. Tough talking New Yorkers. Drunken but charming Irish. Evil masterminds with English accents.

Visible minorities are understandably trying to break out of stereotypes. But if we want to understand why stereotypes persist, it seems to me we'll have more success if we examine why stereotypes of all stripes are so appealing in storytelling, than if we focus only on racism.

 

[Ursa major]

But if we want to understand why stereotypes persist, it seems to me we'll have more success if we examine why stereotypes of all stripes are so appealing in storytelling, than if we focus only on racism.

Perhaps this could be the subject of another thread, given that it's such a wide-ranging problem.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Returning to ethnicity - we are in the main writing fantasy and science fiction - so the question here could be "how do you create convincing ethnic groups?"

So what makes a distinct ethnic identity?

Language? Religion? Cooking? Attitude to elders? Clothing? Attitude to each other? Music?

What do you need to invent for your subculture?

I'm trying to finish a steampunk story I've started several times, and it's set in Egypt. I must admit, I'm finding it hard to write about Egyptians without mention of skin colour, but I think I'm managing it so far, by depicting traditions, attitudes and clothing.

I'm asking myself why I didn't set it in Yorkshire or Northern Ireland, but where would be the challenge in that?

 

[Ursa major]

but I think I'm managing it so far

As long as you're not in denial about this....

​

 

[SilentRoamer]

I'm trying to finish a steampunk story I've started several times, and it's set in Egypt. I must admit, I'm finding it hard to write about Egyptians without mention of skin colour, but I think I'm managing it so far, by depicting traditions, attitudes and clothing.

I don't understand why you would do that though? Surely there would be local variations in skin colour? Why would it be such a problem to describe the actual colour of someones skin?

If I was writing a story that only featured a white english cast there would still be variation at an individual level - some people paler while some are more tanned?

I am not trying to start any sort of inflammatory discussion or focus this thread around me - I am just generally interested? You are trying very hard to NOT describe skin colour - but to what end, does this improve the story?

I am generally interested in your opinion here and am not trying to rub off my world view into the thread.

EDIT: Another question - if you set this in Yorkshire or Northern Ireland would you then not describe colour? It seems like a crucial part of someones physicality - I assume you would not shy away from depicting someone weight or eye colour?

I am looking to educate myself on this minefield of a topic.

 

[Toby Frost]

this is not a thread about general social politics, but a discussion about writing issues.

I think in this situation it is nearly impossible to separate the two.

I think it is worth pointing out that the standards of writing a good - and inoffensive/politically correct/inclusive/insert equivalent term - book are very different to those of being righteous according to the standards of the social justice part of the internet.

 

[WaylanderToo]

The problem is that whenever sensitive subjects are raised, such as race, gender, and sexuality, it is the norm for white male heterosexuals to dominate - and dismiss - such discussion, even though they are the least qualified by default to have anything to say on such matters.

So by all means, if you are non-white person, feel free to share your experiences of identifying with depictions of your ethnicity in fiction. If you are a white person, feel free to discuss the challenges of depicting ethnicity in the fiction you are writing.

here's the problem Brian - I can pretty much guarantee I'm in the minority of one on this forum ethnically speaking... my ancestry is:

part Sudetendeutsch
part English
part Burmese
part (I think!!) Indian

and was born in a German hospital....

I'm too light for people round the Indian sub-continent to identify with, too dark (thankfully!!!) for the knuckle draggers to classify as 'English' I've been accused of being a P or W and other such 'lovely' epithets and I've also been accused racism - seems like I'm getting a poor end of every stick

 

[SilentRoamer]

here's the problem Brian - I can pretty much guarantee I'm in the minority of one on this forum ethnically speaking... my ancestry is:

part Sudetendeutsch
part English
part Burmese
part (I think!!) Indian

and was born in a German hospital....

I'm too light for people round the Indian sub-continent to identify with, too dark (thankfully!!!) for the knuckle draggers to classify as 'English' I've been accused of being a P or W and other such 'lovely' epithets and I've also been accused racism - seems like I'm getting a poor end of every stick

I'm a little bit Scottish, little bit Irish but mostly English so pretty much just represent the Isles. My lovely wife has a mixture of English with a trace of Japanese and a dollop of Austrian and somehow before we were married had what I assume to be a French surname!

I wish my roots were half as interesting, forgive my ignorance but I generally had to google Sudetendeutsch!