Skinwalkers

That's all very well, but as we've seen in closely related areas, some people go further than criticism and get involved in successfully applying censorship (aka No Platforming). So when you say
Even if they try, they may not succeed.
authors may be forgiven for not being particularly heartened by the thought that such censorship, applied to their published works, might not succeed, particularly when what looks like very flimsily based criticism of what is a few paragraphs on a website can get the attention of an international news service.
You have written from the perspective of a real culture that is not your own.
Note that this specific thread is about Rowling's postings on her own website, and that what she posted is not from any character's perspective (other than the fictional historian/commentator), as the "story" is a fictional "non-fiction" account about the culture(s) in a fictional universe of the author's own making), which makes very little reference at all to the issue that's been brought into the public eye.
 
Skinwalkers aren't a "Native American" legend, they're a belief of the Navajo specifically - and that's partly what I understand to be the first bone of contention: she's taken a specific belief of a specific tribe, and glossed it over as a "Native American" myth. I'm sure she could have put in more effort than that. There are other shape-shifting myths in other Native American communities - skinwalkers are perhaps just the better known. It is a term that has a load of baggage.

The other thing is that Skinwalkers are not just shape-shifters, they are considered evil, and JK has basically said that actually! they are just persecuted wizards trying to escape, or a way in which animaji tried to help their tribe. Whether or not you think that was insensitive or that the reaction to it is over-sensitive, you have to expect criticism for it because she's changed the entire basis of the belief (and in a way that marginalises that belief).

If she wanted to explore how her already established idea of animaji could mesh with shape-shifting in Native American cultures, could she have done it in a way that worked with existing beliefs rather than undermining them?

I'm sure it has been blown out of proportion, but the discourse it opens is still important.

Incidentally, the Native Americans in Twilight are the Quieute, who believe that their tribe is descended from wolves. I haven't read Twilight. I'm sure there were people offended by the Quieute = werewolves avenue she took, but at least it was an exploration extrapolated from existing folklore. It expanded and re-imagined rather than re-appropriated? I don't know. I'm probably talking myself in circles here, and I'm not going to read the book in order to see how well she did or didn't do it. :p

But I feel there is a vast difference between using other cultures to inform, enrich, inspire and create (which there is nothing wrong with) and twisting real world culture in a way that distorts or fundamentally changes its very meaning in a detrimental way, particularly if you have done so in a naive or ignorant fashion when writing in a real world setting. And that's all amplified when writing about indigenous or marginalised people. (Writing in an "other" world, even if you have used real-world inspirations, of course offers far more freedoms).

However, it is a case of ethics, not of censorship.

To take it away from the genre of fantasy entirely for a moment, Tony Hillerman was lauded for his depiction of Navajo culture in his books, and pretty much made a career from it. So apparently it can be done right.

(Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert on Native American beliefs, so if I have got anything wrong here, please correct me :))
 
Perhaps, if criticism is deserved, it should have been aimed at the 2006 film, Skinwalkers, whose Wiki article mentions Native Americans just the once, in the penultimate entry in the rather long cast list:

Wesley French as Native American Man
But it seems that the offence of cultural appropriation is measured not by how much is being appropriated, or whether that appropriation is even being acknowledged, but by how famous the person accused of appropriation is.

Oh, and at the risk of casually applying set theory...:
Skinwalkers aren't a "Native American" legend
is not true, just as it isn't true that various characters from, say, German folklore aren't European legends. (This is setting aside that Rowling's "history" is of a fictional version of North America, just as Hogwarts isn't to be found in the country in which I live, the UK.) Besides, it seems that the Navajo term for what we're calling skinwalkers translates to "with it, he goes on all fours" (which sounds a bit sexist to me ;)), which suggests that the term, skin walker, may not necessarily be the creation of someone identifying as Navajo.
 
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That wasn't my intended meaning - what I meant is that Skinwalkers in this context are, specifically, a Navajo belief. Saying "The legend of the Native American ‘skin walker’" is an homogenising hand wave. Not all Native Americans believe the same things.
 
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Given that we're discussing people (out in the real world) dissecting other people's words and, on doing so, finding something they find offensive (or, in some cases, doing so in order to find offence), I think we should try to type what we mean**. :)

Out in the real world, some find "that wasn't what I intended" an unconvincing defence. ;)


** - This is not a guarantee that I will always be suitably meticulous in choosing the words I type. :(
 
It's more, in cases like this, analogous to the Butterfly Effect. :rolleyes:
 
Did anyone complain about Supernatural's use of skinwalkers?
Skinwalker
I see that here it states Skinwalkers often appear in Native American mythology, no mention of a tribe just Native American.
 
Besides, there shouldn't be any need for European writers in particular to look anywhere other than their (our) own fascinating history and culture for inspiration.

DG, don't take offence at this, but that is the most unrealistic thing I have read on here. We are writers, writers of sf&f. You are saying we should only write stuff that is based on our local knowledge. We write fantasy, as does JKR, not fact, not historical fiction. Fantasy. Made up stuff.
If we shouldn't write about things we dont have experience of, that we cant fully undestand the full impact of, then I would like all non ginger haired people to not have ginger haired people in their work. They don't know what it was like getting abuse at school for it. They cant understand because they never experienced it. And anyone who writes about 'fiery tempered red heads' should be bombarded with complaints for exploiting a stereotype.

We work in fantasy. I dont believe whatever a fantasy writer writes, i assume it is made up for their fantasy world. Even if that world is similar to ours. It isnt history she wrote, it isnt even historical fiction, it is made up fantasy. I dont like JKR's work, but she needs people to defend this standpoint, or we may as well quit now.
 
DG, don't take offence at this, but that is the most unrealistic thing I have read on here. We are writers, writers of sf&f. You are saying we should only write stuff that is based on our local knowledge. We write fantasy, as does JKR, not fact, not historical fiction. Fantasy. Made up stuff.
If we shouldn't write about things we dont have experience of, that we cant fully undestand the full impact of, then I would like all non ginger haired people to not have ginger haired people in their work. They don't know what it was like getting abuse at school for it. They cant understand because they never experienced it. And anyone who writes about 'fiery tempered red heads' should be bombarded with complaints for exploiting a stereotype.

We work in fantasy. I dont believe whatever a fantasy writer writes, i assume it is made up for their fantasy world. Even if that world is similar to ours. It isnt history she wrote, it isnt even historical fiction, it is made up fantasy. I dont like JKR's work, but she needs people to defend this standpoint, or we may as well quit now.

I was kinda playing Devil's Advocate, Q. Perhaps a little too well, it seems...
 
It's an over-onerous task expecting to do right all the time. Especially in s world where we have a white Jesus with blue eyes still peddled on iconography, and the odd person of blaggable heritage in movies like Gods of Egypt and Clash of the Titans.

pH
 
white Jesus with blue eyes
Not totally impossible, but rather unlikely.
Neanderthal extent was as far as Israel. (possibly paler or red hair and paler eyes)
Jewish Tradition has King David being redhead (Jewish, Finnish, North West Atlantic Celts, and one group of Russian Asians are almost all the source of redheads, eyes are separate).
Berbers have the rare (only green is rarer) West European Blue Eye Gene.

However there appears to have been nothing remarkable about Joshua Bar Joseph's appearance at all, so likely he looked like any other 1st C. Jewish person. Jesus is corrupt version of Joshua (from Greek, Joshua is corrupt version of Hebrew Yeshua). Mary is from Greek. She was likely called Miriam (same name as Moses's sister, Moses is Moshe).

Dreaded Cultural Imperialism of all those Greek speakers and then later Latin speakers, then Englishmen corrupting our view of the "New Testament". You CAN get version of the Living Bible which has all the OT and NT names as transliterations from Hebrew/Aramaic. Some of it makes more sense. The names we have were mostly established by King James era.
 
Also the Thracians (who were sort of near turkey/greece) were notable for red hair. Red headed Egyptians were also recorded.
 
Thracians (who were sort of near turkey/greece) were notable for red hair
They may be the source of the southern ex USSR folk I forget the name of.
Some Celts actually may have come from that area of the world.
Later Iron Age Celts (500 BC and later in Ireland) are smaller and darker. It's the Atlantic Bronze Age ones (1800BC to 500BC) that are probably sources of oldest Irish legends of Tuath De. (Tall, pale, blonde or red hair).
 
Don't forget Galatia, in present-day Turkey (Ankara was the capital of Galatia),
named for the immigrant Gauls from Thrace (cf. Tylis), who settled here and became its ruling caste in the 3rd century BC, following the Gallic invasion of the Balkans in 279 BC. It has been called the "Gallia" of the East, Roman writers calling its inhabitants Galli (Gauls or Celts).
 
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Who's stopping you writing whatever you want?
It's as if there's a fear that a few extreme identity politics academics will be able to introduce new international laws that determine what you're allowed to write.

I wouldn't underestimate the efforts of impassioned people fighting for a cause they believe to be right. The extremes are never taken seriously until they happen. Nobody believed Hitler's hate-demagogy would bring genocide and concentration camps. Everybody thought the US was untouchable until 9/11. More recently, nobody thought governments would censor internet in the West, and then Spain did. Nobody saw Trump as a serious threat, and gosh, would you look at him now. These things happen, and although I wouldn't go as far as to fear international laws banning writers from taboo subjects, I definitely can see how protests of this sort could unravel and, even in an unofficial capacity, inhibit writers as it permeates into the masses' perceptions. Political correctness can become very heavy shackles (and oft-times invisible) for some artists, and I would find that unfair, even if that's as far as the threat goes.

Is it a fear that agents and publishers will take on these new "rules" and apply them strictly? Or is it a fear of attacks by a Twitter mob? (Are any of us really expecting to get so well-known that the latter will be a consideration?) Or that it will turn the book-buying public as a whole into a bunch of hyper-critical political correctness activists? I really don't think that's a danger.
I never mentioned laws or economical repercussions to writers; that wasn't the point of my argument, as I wasn't talking about external consequences, legal or economic. I was talking about the art and the artist, and how the process itself is the one being attacked. Any obstacle to writing a fictional story is a problem for me, be it legal or otherwise, forced, real, or imagined. I believe these protests, empty or not, plant apprehension in writers, and this might not be obvious at first, but social undercurrents can end up moulding the art itself in the long term (which is how it usually happens), but in this case it'd be for the worst.

The danger is much more subtle. Cultural appropriation is just a stepping stone towards more dangerous demands/protests, and it's naive to think otherwise. It won't stop there. These things rarely stop there, if left unchecked. They must go through the motions to come to their logical conclusion, which can go either way depending on who's involved. For example, I wouldn't consider it too far-fetched to start having some publishing houses turn down a few books based on this Appropriation business. That is well within the realm of possibility, IMO. And that's how it starts. Not that it will, but leaving that window open bugs me all the same.

Fact. People from that culture may be offended by what you have written. Perhaps you did not research properly, perhaps you didn't try or care. Perhaps you wanted to offend them. This does not impact your rights to write whatever you like.
My point exactly, but I would change "does not impact" with "should not impact" :whistle:.

Opinion. That people being offended is oppressing your creativity.
It most certainly can if said people speak out. If tomorrow all your acquaintances become of the wholehearted opinion that writing about homeless people is unforgivable and tell you about it, I guarantee you will think thrice before putting pen to paper on the subject. People's opinions shape everyone to some degree, and not always in obvious ways. This is a fact, unless you're a robotic sociopath living on a deserted island.

Fact. People being offended is simply them voicing an opinion. This is free speech. Unless they actively try to ban your work or prevent its distribution THEY ARE NOT RESTRICTING YOUR CREATIVITY. Even if they try, they may not succeed.
What others say can limit you, as I said above. And even if it's only a minor threat, one can be apprehensive of certain opinions at the very least--specially ones that could naturally be followed with legal action and become a real threat (and I'm not referring to this JK case in particular, which I find silly. More severe discontent could come up with any number of works on any number of more serious subjects: not myths, but racism, sexism, nationalism, immigration, war, politics, etc.)

Opinion. If you don't care about trying to represent other cultures and groups fairly, stop whining when somebody who knows about the culture in question better than you tells you that you have done a poor job of it.
That I agree with. But the protesters didn't stop there, which is what irks me. They didn't simply trash JK--and in my other comment I made it clear that would've been 100% justifiable. They went a step further (as I mentioned before, these things always escalate unless stomped out) and Cultural Appropriation was mentioned (I will admit I'm not clear on who mentioned it--protesters might be innocent of this and some news outlet could be the one to blame), a concept that can be generalized to any work and any writer, a concept that can creep up on you, one that can be taken to court if people feel the offence merits it. They attacked part of the process. And that's what I'm against.

I guess great part of the underlying conflict in this discussion comes from having freedom of speech devour itself. The real connundrum is: which side of the argument should you take when freedom of speech argues in favour of censoring freedom of speech?

PS: I'm not being a sensationalist scaremonger. I'm trying to be a realist. I think these opinions, despite being in infant stages, can swell up to become more than just a nuisance. It's a very real possibility, and I find this undeniable enough to write a big post about it.:mad::D
 
Hi Harebrain,

It's not a fear about laws being written to stop writers writing books on various subjects that's my first concern. There's a hell of a lot of stuff that can happen long before you get to the stage of laws.

Remember the Satanic Verses? No one wrote a law saying that Rushdie couldn't write what he did. They just got peeved off and declared a fatwa. That of course was followed up with Charlie Hebdo. Now I wonder, if you wrote a book with a depiction of the prophet what publisher would touch you?

And it's not just books that touch on religous toes. Uncle Tom's Cabin ignited a storm of protest in the American south, and the author was even sent a slaves ear by one protestor. The book was banned and some of the booksellers were run out of town for stocking it.

Venice's mayor has banned books from schools that have homosexuality.

Look, if a book offends you by all means protest. Write the author a snarky letter. Give bad reviews for other readers etc. That's your right. But people don't have the right to stop an author writing that book nor other people reading it. Not unless it crosses some legal line in which the book may be deemed to cause actual harm to readers.

Cheers, Greg.
 
I guarantee you will think thrice before putting pen to paper on the subject.
One, obviously unintended, consequence of this will be that there will be people who think once about it and decide that the unsayable must be said. Some will do this because they believe in the freedom of artistic expression; others will do so because they want to do something shocking (and it isn't as if art is free of this kind of person, from the visual arts to the staging of plays and operas written centuries ago).

Yet others, the ones we should all be worried about, will see it as an opportunity to promote their far from neutral opinions amongst a wider public. But surely no real harm could come of this? Of course not, except.... Look at how, in the sphere of politics, the cries of "racism" whenever any doubts about the scale of immigration was expressed, first became less effective (in the UK, from 2004 onwards, because lots of migrants were, if anything, paler than the average Brit). How long has it taken for that cry to lose at least some of its moral force? Not long at all, even in a society that has, during the same period, seemingly become more socially tolerant of difference (as evidenced by, for example, the attitudes to same-gender marriage). And when the cry was applied to the criticism of religion (always a delicate issue, as we know), not specific ethnic groups, that moral force was decreased further.

So now, when racism really is at the bottom of some people's words and actions (and their words and actions are less and less veiled from public view), calling people out for what they truly are -- out-and-out racists -- does not have the power it once might have had. And we'll all be losers because of this.

It isn't as if we (or many of us, at least) haven't been warned, all the way back in our childhoods: that's the whole point of the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
 
Good point Ursa.
In the case of accusations of cultural appropriation, I wouldn't mind if they lost steam through crying wolf in several low-level silly protests, TBH. That'd be one way of it fizzling out, but I'd be wary. Those accusations can always hit the jackpot if the planets align.
Another problem is that if it was to be dismissed in a battle vs literature (it's not a "battle" yet, ofc, but at some point it might be, you never know), it'd set precedent and be easier for it to be dismissed in other more relevant circumstances, where actual injustices occur. I do think accusations of cultural appropriation can have their place, and I wouldn't want the concept to lose its power in ALL circumstances outside this headbutting with freedom of speech. So I'm a bit torn with this contextual non-compartmentalization.

On another note, concerning tactics: if I'd wanted to raise the issue of cultural appropriation, I don't think I would've targeted someone as popular and beloved as JK. I would've started with less popular authors and built up a case. Putting myself in the complainers' shoes, I would've gone about it differently, I think. All that positive attention on your cause can turn on you really fast if your opponent holds the masses' hearts.
 
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