Amazon reviews - quality vs quantity

Word of mouth (goodwill, loyal fan base) doesn't come from an algorithm, nor fit in one. I dread the day when/if I have to start worrying about it. ;)

No, and it also doesn't come from a one-day sales spike, either. Nor does it come overnight. It builds, quietly, in forums and in discussion rooms. Sarah Pinborough, at Mancunicon, reckoned she'd rather have someone go in and tell their office that they liked the book rather than post a review on amazon (I'd rather like it if people did both :D).

But to ignore the importance of marketing to bring about enough sales to start word of mouth seems a little off kilter.

Bottom line (sorry, wait for the depressing bit) there are something like four million books on Amazon US. People have to find the sodding thing and read it before they can talk about it. And that's where your marketing comes into it.

An example. Our town had fireworks last night, and we have a little beach about ten minutes walk away with a good view to the castle and loughshore where the display was. Down we went, and there were about 10 people on the beach (it was rush hour, usually there's no one), including a nice chap there to take photos. We got talking. He's a writer. So am I. Chatted about each other's stuff, exchanged facebook contacts and there you go, word has spread again.

I look on it that there's a big lake out there, of readers. And you want to reach them. Each little drip is another stone in that lake, and you want to fill it with ripples. But the stones have to get in there first of all - and, frankly, at the start no one but the author (and their publisher, if they have one and they're lucky to get some promo) can put the stones in.

So, I say yes to everything. Interviews, forum posts, guests posts, blogs, the lot. If it's promo I thank the person kindly and take it.

Is it paying off? I think, judging by what people tell me here and elsewhere, yes. It's not bringing huge sales yet, but my name is getting out there. And each time it's mentioned, each time someone sees it, there's another ripple.

Incidentally - on a tangent here, but bear with me - early on we thought about removing Abendau from the title of my books. It's hard to say, to spell and I don't have the easiest name to remember, either (or it's memorable, but a pig to spell). It was very much a case of balancing up the unique series identification vs being a little easier for people to remember.

I'm glad I stuck with it. There is no other Abendau on Amazon, and very few Zebedees, either. It can be found. Because that's the key to everything - being found.

To also give hope (sorry, getting boring now perhaps) - I was chatting with a very level-headed, sensible writer at Mancunicon and was introduced to the concept of break-out books and I've been thinking further on it since.

GRRM - had loads of sf out before GOT. Pat Rothfuss - took off on the first book. It's easy to say Pat got lucky, or just wrote an amazing first book or whatever, but that might not be the point. The point is, one had their break-out on the first book, one later on, and it made no difference. Just because your first, second, third, fourth, whatever doesn't go viral, it doesn't mean your next won't. Keep writing. Get stuff out there. (Please, please, get stuff out there when it's honed and ready - you can't make it if no one can read you). And sooner or later, something might happen.
 
Jo, the right balance of title is something I try and get right too. Sir Edric's an exception because he's going to have his name in every title, but for my other stuff I try and have titles that are clearly fantasy without falling into the cliches (Dark Assassin of Kings etc).

Because of the hiatus between my last full release and the most recent (almost 3 years), I've now got a bit of a backlog, so hopefully I can release books at a faster rate (at least one a year, maybe one every six months for a few years) and get the kind of ripple effect you talked about going on.
 
Did he mean that the German Amazon page should only be written in English if the book is not in German?
My bio Translator suggested I should have the English bio, and it first, even if a German bio is on the Author page because the book is only in English. If a German can read an English only book (Amazon clearly labels it as English), then they can read an English bio. She suggested it wasn't that important to have the German bio as the book is only in English. She bought a copy and then did the German bio for me. I was going to ask one of my daughter-in-laws, who is German. The Daughter-in-law has fine English and reads English books, but isn't a translator. Curiously the German purchaser is a professional Translator, so I may investigate how much she charges to translate the book.

The book is clearly labelled as English on all Amazon's non-English sites. I've checked all the main ones to see what it looks like. As well as checking the Amazon English language sites.
 
But to ignore the importance of marketing to bring about enough sales to start word of mouth seems a little off kilter.

Bottom line (sorry, wait for the depressing bit) there are something like four million books on Amazon US. People have to find the sodding thing and read it before they can talk about it. And that's where your marketing comes into it.
Absolutely.
Marketing is also very difficult for most people. It's the best reason to be traditionally published, IF the publisher is convinced it's a best seller and seriously markets it rather than "pulling a web 2.0" and expecting the Author to do all the promoting.

Reviews are one tool in the marketing toolbox?

I think with your background you are very many times more likely to market well compared to a typical Author (who may be useless at marketing, business, planning, social media etc or not depending on background and training). People can learn but not everyone is going to be good at it even if they get the right advice and read the right books. Folk do learn by doing too.
 
Just because your first, second, third, fourth, whatever doesn't go viral, it doesn't mean your next won't.
And I seem to recall that when The Da Vinci Code became a big best seller, the sales of Dan Brown's previous three books -- Digital Fortress, Angels and Demons and Deception Point -- shot up:
Brown's first three novels had little success, with fewer than 10,000 copies in each of their first printings. His fourth novel, The Da Vinci Code, became a bestseller, going to the top of the New York Times Best Seller list during its first week of release in 2003. [...] Its success has helped push sales of Brown's earlier books. In 2004 all four of his novels were on the New York Times list in the same week....
 
Absolutely.
Marketing is also very difficult for most people. It's the best reason to be traditionally published, IF the publisher is convinced it's a best seller and seriously markets it rather than "pulling a web 2.0" and expecting the Author to do all the promoting.

Reviews are one tool in the marketing toolbox?

I think with your background you are very many times more likely to market well compared to a typical Author (who may be useless at marketing, business, planning, social media etc or not depending on background and training). People can learn but not everyone is going to be good at it even if they get the right advice and read the right books. Folk do learn by doing too.

Absolutely, I'm lucky with some of my experience (although when I first set up my own business, I had zero experience of marketing. Even now, I don't actively market it anywhere, business mostly comes to me, but I do at least have to go in to meetings and sell my services.) But I'm mostly lucky because I'm at the extrovert end of the paradigm, and many authors aren't.

But! There are some absolute sitters that anyone, extrovert, introvert, new, whatever can do. It takes time, yes - can't solve that one for anyone - but some of the current marketing is, literally, lying in your pyjamas with a cup of coffee-style. (I know, I do that.)

So here we go:

Facebook page - easy to set up, mimimal time, can be easily linked to. Why any writer wouldn't want one - even if they don't personally want anything to do with Facebook - is beyond me. You don't have to interact on facebook to have it. Low-hanging fruit.
Amazon/goodreads author pages - once set up, they take no maintenance. Every author should have both.

Twitter account. - this one is more optional, I think, as it does take an investment of time in building good followers etc. The same applies to What's app, K-boards, all the social media outlets. Do the ones you like.

(But I can't talk about myself! you say. You don't need to. Use hashtags wisely. #amwriting and #writingtips are great. 'Ten pages today. Coffee time - brain needs a break. #writingtip' Do something like that five times a day and writers will start to follow you. Use #reading #MustRead #Goodread etc and your genre # and readers will start to follow you. Amount of skill - practically zero. Need to be an extrovert - totally zero.)

Harder, but doable for most people:

Interviews - most come to you in email form. All you have to do is respond. Yes, they might ask hard questions and need a bit of thought, but you actually don't have to interact with anyone.
Blogs - find it hard to think of something to write? Keep it within a theme. Grammar tips, making up titles tips, subbing experiences, publishing experiences, interviews with others, reviews, making cosplay costumes, whatever you are into and can make tie to the writing. One blog a week. 1000 words. I challenge anyone not to be able to do that, if they are interested in the subject. When in doubt, offer guest spaces and get the odd week off.


Things I do accept are hard (and let's be very, very clear - I find them hard. You guys see the end result, you don't see the churning fear beforehand. Despite being reasonably outgoing, I am not some attention-junkie. I'm actually pretty private.)

Face-to-face interviews.
Podcasts - although you can do them in your pjs should you desire. But you have to talk for an hour which for some would be excruciating. (and, yes, if that's not your skills set - avoid. You'll do more harm by sounding like a boring potato than if you hadn't done it.)
Public readings. They terrify me and I'm a lecturer. I hate them. I churn up before them. But the first few are the worst. I hope so, anyhow....
Panels - they're pretty terrifying, too, and probably one for those confident in chatting in public and off the cuff. But if you're specialist at something - why not?
Signing sessions - are frantic if busy and toe-curlingly awful if not. Bring some mates, if you can.

So, yes, not everyone has the skills to do all of these (although I have in the last year or so, some to greater or lesser extent) but almost everyone has the skill to do one or two of them effectively. Choose the couple, start building them and do it before you're published. Once you are, you'll be struggling to maintain.

Speaking of which, I have to run - I have a blog to write!
 
Just on Facebook: I thought you had to use your real name? Is it within the rules to have multiple accounts?

It's difficult, as we're discussing, for a writer to get a profile and I don't want to split that between my pen name and the actual one. [I do have a Facebook account but it's old and I really don't like using it].

As you suggest, many writers aren't extroverts. It's galling that I'm pretty good at knuckling down by myself in a room for hours on end [ahem], which is 99% of the work, but the other 1% is just as important and marketing/selling myself isn't my forte. That said, still got some reviews in the pipeline, so hopefully that'll help jolt things, and when that happens the good reviews may help encourage browsers to become buyers.
 
Just on Facebook: I thought you had to use your real name? Is it within the rules to have multiple accounts?

It's difficult, as we're discussing, for a writer to get a profile and I don't want to split that between my pen name and the actual one. [I do have a Facebook account but it's old and I really don't like using it].

As you suggest, many writers aren't extroverts. It's galling that I'm pretty good at knuckling down by myself in a room for hours on end [ahem], which is 99% of the work, but the other 1% is just as important and marketing/selling myself isn't my forte. That said, still got some reviews in the pipeline, so hopefully that'll help jolt things, and when that happens the good reviews may help encourage browsers to become buyers.

You can set up a facebook page for your books, Thad. You might need to register first and have a personal profile page but that doesn't mean you have to use it or put content in it. The facebook page, if used that way, would be more of a place to put info and additional link. (But if you have a website, you may not need one)

Edit - to my post above. Anyone can have a website. They're not hard. Link it to the blog and content gets updated via it at least.
 
Just on Facebook: I thought you had to use your real name?
There is no law. If they don't like it, the worst is they will delete your account. As they do that anyway to totally innocent real named people ...

Amazon, Goodreads, Smashwords and others allow "reviewer" identities and pen names. Loads of Authors and Actors and Celebs are known only by pseudonym. Loads of people use fake names on facebook. It's a bit mad to ACTUALLY use your real name on Facebook, given what they are. If your Authors, Actors or Celeb name IS your real name, then it makes sense to use a real name. Otherwise not.
Google has abandoned its real name policy.

It's a lie that it's to minimise trolling, it's about Advertising. That is the ONLY reason Facebook want real names. To exploit you better.
 
Hmm, thanks for that Jo (and Ray).
 
Great thread!

But going back to the word of mouth thing Jo was talking about, there's a great blog post by Rick Riordan, best-selling MG/YA author, on exactly that topic. Before Riordan hit the big time with Percy Jackson, he wrote adult P.I. thrillers. He was very much a small-name, mid-list author. Even when the first Percy Jackson came out, it took ages to gather momentum, and a lot of that was word of mouth buzz: kids recommending to their friends, librarians recommending, etc.
 
Having published 25 books in 2 and a half years. You would think I have the answer.

Sadly I don't. Some books do well with no author promotion, or very little. Others, where authors throw the kitchen sink at it, don't do as well. It's a conundrum!

I think you have to approach it as a newly published author that you should work your socks off. Engage in every social media platform! Small presses like TBP don't have full hard copy distribution into bookshops like the big boys so we have to chip away at it. Hopefully we will get there!

I recently got a few US contacts with specialist bookshops through the Spectral debacle and I have several limited hardbacks wanted, Jo's included. It's a start and PJ Strebor, Ralph, Ian, Martin, Dave, Sue, Teresa, others and Thad should follow down that route. It's revenue and more important the word is spread. I have already sent them £1300 of TBP/Spectral books.

As Stephen says, unless you are really lucky - it's a hard slog but a worthwhile one. :)

I think the answer is as Jo says, "the breakout book," that's when you have 3 or 4 books out there, raised your profile, created a network and called in a few favours!

Good luck to everyone. :)
 

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