Sci-fi actually needs science

The starshot initiative's stated goal is to demonstarte the feasiblity of sendng a probe to another star within a human lifetime, which needs speeds of 15,000 km/sec minimum, even asumng you get a 80 year lifespan. It's a very different kettle of babel fish.
A very tiny useless probe, and even that doesn't look feasible.
A larger sail than has ever been made
A larger laser array
Who pays to run the laser array assuming it can be built?
I suspect the only reason this has any traction at all is possible weapons applications for a laser.
 
Hey there, I've spent some time thinkng about how to respond properly to this, and I'll start with a disclaimer: Everything i post is, of course, only my opinion, but... BSc Physics with Space Technology, MSc Vacum Science and Applications, PhD by research with the title 'Dual sourced pused plasmas for the production of hard wearing thin films'. I also write a small astronomy and space blog here (shameless plug) and have been a space exploration fan since I was abut six. I work as an optical engineer for a company that produces and uses (amongst other products) lasers of various tupes from weedy type 1's up to scary burn-off-a-finger type 3R's and type 4's.

My point is (aside from that my ego is bigger than some planets), while I can be and often am wrong even on the very subjects I'm supposed to be an expert in, lasers, space exploration ... this is kind of my thing. So it's very tempting for me to inadvertantly hijack this thread with lots of details on lightsails and starshot. After I've said my piece in this post, I won't. In fact I'm gonna bug out of the thread unless anyone has a specific question directly to me.

What I'd like to say, before I go, is that there are lots of huge engineering problems to be overcome before an interstellar lightsail could work, and there are lots and lots and lots of smaller but still very tricky problems even after that. But they aren't the problesm people here seem to think they arre. For example:

The starshot sail is designed to be 4 meters by 4 meters square, less than half the size of sails already flown - not bigger than any sail ever constructed. (IKAROS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) (Breakthrough Starshot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

The laser beam would only be trained on the sail for ten to thirty minutes. (Breakthrough Initiatives)

A miniaturised probe needn't be useless for exploration - miniaturised satellites have been a quite revolution in space industry over the last ten years (NASA's CubeSat Launch Initiative), and will space craft only 10 cm on a side will begin flying as parts of multi vehicle interplanetary mission by the decades end - if all goes to plan (NASA Prepares for First Interplanetary CubeSat Mission).

And there's no point worrying about the laser technology being used as a weapon, because Starshot is planning to straight up steal anti-drone laser weapon tech already developed by the US navy (Navy is on to the next phase of laser weapons -- Defense Systems), and due to be deployed on their next generation of battleships (I will point out that what they actually have in hardware right now is still a long way from being the kind of effective weapon they're talking about putting on their warships).

In my opnion (only!) a few of the real showstoppers might well be:
The sail needs to be incredibly reflective, much more so than current light sails, or the laser beam would simply evaporate it. That kind of reflectivity can be done, but as far as I know hasn't been done on a sail only a few thousandths of a millimeter thick.

The probe and sail will need to be able to stand up to a 10,000g plus acceleration. That might be do-able in the direction of the sails depth, but only fi the sail stays perfectly (utterly perfectly) on the middle of the beam.

The probe will not be able to stop at the target, and will barrel through the whole target star system in less than a week so the cost vs return is questionable.

As a flip side to that, to make the mission worthwhile, the state of in space electronic miniaturisation needs to be bettered by around ten times to fit a reasonabe array of sensors in. That's not unthinkable, but probably expensive.

The probe needs a radio transmitter that weighs much, much, less than a kilogram, but can be detected over light years. IMHO this is the main showstopper that would need to be beaten.

I very much doubt a lightsail will ever work for anything bigger than a tiny robotic probe, IF it can be made to work at all. The technology actualy seems IMHO to dead end with lightweight flyby probes, unless we want to build some insanely huge sails and laser arrays.
But, as space exploration is my personal passion I'd like to recommend that, rather than listen to me, anyone intereted does their own reading and reaches their own opinion. The starshot page itself is one place to start (Breakthrough Initiatives), as is the starshot wikipadea entry (I know wikipadea is not reliable, but there's lots of links to follow to other sites at the bottom of the page Breakthrough Starshot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Or just google 'starshot' there're some good (and plenty of bad, including perhaps my own) articles out there.

One final point: The starshot budget is $100,000,000. By their own estimates, and actual interstellar probe could not be done for under $5 billion. Starshot, as it stands, is not an effort to buld an interstellar probe, it is an effort to show how such a probe might be feasible, identify the biggest engineering challenges... and, maybe, test a few proof-of-principle pieces of hadware.

OK, that's it, I apologise for ego-ing and boring you all. I look forward to reading any rebuttals of the points I've made, but as I said I won't respond unless it's a direct question, to avoid becoming a thread hijacker.
 
I very much doubt a lightsail will ever work for anything bigger than a tiny robotic probe, IF it can be made to work at all. The technology actualy seems IMHO to dead end with lightweight flyby probes, unless we want to build some insanely huge sails and laser arrays.
Which is a summary of what I said. It's an irrelevant tech for considering Interstellar travel, and actually the Starshot project numbers don't seem realistic unless it's a dummy payload and longer than a lifetime.

the starshot sail is designed to be 4 meters by 4 meters square, less than half the size of sails already flown - not bigger than any sail ever constructed.
Not to have a radio transmitter you can pick up.
The sail needs to be incredibly reflective, much more so than current light sails, or the laser beam would simply evaporate it. That kind of reflectivity can be done, but as far as I know hasn't been done on a sail only a few thousandths of a millimeter thick.
SF.
The laser beam would only be trained on the sail for ten to thirty minutes.
That wouldn't even match current craft velocities, nor get you out of the Solar System. Niven's story is more believable.

I've no doubt you are interested in the subject and expert on Lasers. But the numbers don't add up for a probe that can get to a star in a lifetime and actually carry any useful payload. From 1LY, never mind about 5 LY of nearest stars, the probe needs a much larger dish and more powerful transmitter than New Horizons. And the power source. I've been designing RF systems and transmitters off and on as the day job for a long time.
 
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Sorry, sorry, there is actually one more (strictly non technical) thing I ought to mention after all the attention this has got from people: If anyone wants to get into a technical discussion, with people who are following starshot closely (some of whom are actually involved in it in some capacity, although I'm not sure how much) there have been forums set up here ( Breakthrough Initiatives ) and here ( Centauri Dreams ).

I'm not on them so I can't vouch for them personally - despite all the above nattering I've done I'm content to just stay outside and watch how it all unfolds. But as far as I know they're the best place to go if you're really itching to get into it with someone on the technical side of this. I think they are actually interlinked with each other, but I'm not sure how much. I hope anyone who went in with a skeptical vewpoint but a willingness to look at new evidence would be welcomed. If anyone goes there and has a bad epxeriancewith rudeness etc please let me know so I don't recommend them anymore.

One brilliant thing I can conlude, with this thread as evidence: Whether or not science is needed in sci-fi it's certainly something people can get passionate about! :D
 
Okay, back on track, then. He wants feedback but he is a space opera writer.

If an author asks for feedback he deserves whatever he gets. He still has to evaluate the feedback relative to his original intent. If he thinks the feedback is irrelevant, elitist drivel that is hi sbusiness.

Due to the fact that I am an 'old dude' the term "Space Opera" is derogatory but for the people who like it, it is cool anyway. But that is a rather pre-Star Wars perspective. Since then any story in space can be called "Space Opera" regardless of style, or quality or scientific accuracy. To me the term has become nearly meaningless.

Unfortunately the term "science fiction" is getting close to that. There are too many Star Wars fans to kill them all because they can't understand that SW is not science fiction. Death Stars are just too expensive and they don't have fine enough firing control. It is not like we can ship all of the Star Wars fans Venus and blow up the planet.

So what we need is a new and more descriptive term: STEM Fiction.

psik
 
Ultimately we need different categories of readers and categories of SF.

A reader will have to figure out which category s/he is in and prefers. A category 5 reader will just have to accept that s/he can't stand categoy 2 books while some people love them. So reviewers will have to advertise their category. LOL

psik
 
Has anyone but me read Robert L Forward's 'Flight of the Dragonfly' (Rocheworld)? A nearby star, admittedly, and decades of travel time, but it uses laser propulsion and a vessel large enough to carry human crew, and has a technique for braking, all worked out by someone in the business, with diagrams and equations. No way of getting it back, evidently - you explore, transmit the data, and ultimately die (nowhere near massive enough to be a generation ship).

I've a couple of stories written about methods of getting a ship moving fast enough without accelerating all its reaction mass (at least within the vessel) but slowing it down is always the problem. Unless, I suppose, you don't want to stop…
 
Has anyone but me read Robert L Forward's 'Flight of the Dragonfly' (Rocheworld)? A nearby star, admittedly, and decades of travel time, but it uses laser propulsion and a vessel large enough to carry human crew, and has a technique for braking, all worked out by someone in the business, with diagrams and equations. No way of getting it back, evidently - you explore, transmit the data, and ultimately die (nowhere near massive enough to be a generation ship).

I've a couple of stories written about methods of getting a ship moving fast enough without accelerating all its reaction mass (at least within the vessel) but slowing it down is always the problem. Unless, I suppose, you don't want to stop…
I've not read the book but his deceleration mechanism seems unlikely to me:
To catch the energy, Forward used a 1,000-km-diameter, circular aluminum sail. The sail resembled a flattened disk with a 300-km diameter removable center portion. When traveling to Rocheworld, the entire sail was used. When the ship needed to decelerate, the smaller sail was separated from the larger outer sail. The large sail was used as a reflecting lens, focusing light onto the smaller sail, slowing the craft.
Seems to me when 'decelerating' that the force on the first reflecting sail would be identical to the force on the smaller sail. Anything else would be contrary to the conservation of momentum.
 
Ah now I see what it is doing. The Wiki description did not make it clear that the larger sail was detached from the payload and then reflecting light back at a sail attached to the payload. I can see how that would work though the problem I can imagine is that the larger sail, which would of course still be accelerating, would actually be accelerating even faster (having little in the way of payload now) whilst the payload would be decelerating, so the gap between them would rapidly increase (exponentially even?). Without doing the sums I suspect that by the time the payload had decelerated, and say the journey had been one light year distance, the main sail would now be one light year ahead of the payload (two light years away from Earth). So by the end of the journey your laser light from Earth would have had to travel, and stay sufficiently focused, at least three times the distance actually being travelled by the payload. It's all starting to get very tenuous to my way of thinking, though I've not done the sums.
 
So you accelerate away from the Solar system on photon pressure of the Sun, and decelerate on photon pressure of the destination star as you get closer to it. That might involve rotating the whole sail the other way around at half point, but that's it.

There are no other options really. Solar Sail isn't a viable interstellar propulsion system for manned flight.

So by the end of the journey your laser light from Earth would have had to travel, and stay sufficiently focused, at least three times the distance actually being travelled by the payload.
Which is bigger fantasy than "Jump Drive"
 
I'm having trouble envisaging it as viable. Maybe, more mileage in, for want of a better word, 'tacking' the reflectivity of the main sail and drogue.

Alternatively, some kind of grand tour method? Haven't even had a quick look at the sums and think doubtful at interstellar speeds - however the rough thought is potentially wait for a fortuitous alignment in a multi-star system then let a deceleration gravity assist do the work around a companion star or two to bring the probe in at another body.

I think that would be more in addition to another method of decelerating than something that could be used on its own.

Of course, that posits a need to decelerate. A fly-by would be valuable in of itself and offers an opportunity for ongoing exploration targets - Voyager style. Of course, not crewed - although that might make quite a nice story, sailing by stars, seeing new worlds and new civilisations etc... but the tragedy being they can't stop and investigate the wonders they see until some benevolent advanced alien species....hmmm... be right back... got a story to write. :)
 
although that might make quite a nice story, sailing by stars, seeing new worlds and new civilisations etc... but the tragedy being they can't stop and investigate the wonders they see
They'd need a Generation ship (which is a sort of viable thing even today, just expensive).
 
It'd be a story, so want to keep the same characters. Potentially people 'uploaded' into a tiny probe and they go dormant or fast forward between stars (perhaps with a plot twist that that is only revealed at the end) or keep it basic with some kind of suspended animation.

Hmm. Got a fair bit on with other WIPs, but that might be a short story for an antho if I can find it a home.

Love how these debates prompt ideas.
 

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