Perceptions of equity in sff

[Hex]

You mean if more women were writing, more of them would wise-up and write like men?

It doesn't have to mean that, though, does it? I mean, is it likely that the more submissions you got from women, the more likelihood there would be more diversity among them? Or that if women submitted science fiction, and were published, in the same numbers as men, the imbalance would gradually become less because men would stop assuming that only other men wrote in the genre they enjoyed.

If fewer women than men submit sff then women will represent a narrower slice of the published fiction. That seems to make sense to me, though it's late, so maybe it doesn't. I don't think there's any reason to assume anything else was intended.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Although, to be fair, Jo, I think that sf forums are working toward equity, too. There are certainly plenty of strong female voices here who refuse to be dominated by anyone.

We do try

And, actually, I've never had anything but support wherever I go. The forums are great. So are conventions. But it still takes (virtual) cojones to walk into a blokey environment, take your place at the (virtual) bar and announce yourself as an equal...

 

[nixie]

A gentle reminder to keep things civil, and respect others or the thread will be locked.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It doesn't have to mean that, though, does it? I mean, is it likely that the more submissions you got from women, the more likelihood there would be more diversity among them? Or that if women submitted fiction, and were published, in the same numbers as men, the imbalance would gradually become less because men would stop assuming that only other men wrote in the genre they enjoyed.

Of course it could mean that. But why would that be more desirable than if male SFF readers (as a group) were more open to giving books by women writers a chance? What is the worst that could happen? They might read a few books that they don't like and confirm their opinion that women don't write the kind of thing they like to read. What is the best that could happen? That they could discover that their tastes are not so narrow as they thought and find a great number of new authors and new perspectives to enjoy.

Personally, I think that second one would be a better outcome than bringing in new writers simply so that they can write what the writers already there are writing.

 

[Hex]

Absolutely. Though to be fair, I don't read that many fantasy books by men because most of my favourite writers are women. I didn't consciously make that decision, but it turned out that way. It leads me to wonder if maybe there are differences in the way men tend to write vs the way women do. Do you think there are?

 

[RX-79G]

Actually, I'd prefer that you meant something else, and told me what that something else was, and it was something that gave us some sort of common ground in what we hope and expect for the future. But if you'd rather not answer then I guess I will have to draw my own conclusions.

Yet you phrased it in a pretty insulting way, Teresa. Would it not be preferable to not start with the base assumption that the person you are speaking with is a Neandrathal?

No, that is not what I meant. I meant that when the sample size of female writers grow, we will see more diversity in what they are writing, just as we see more diversity in everything when the sample size is larger.

Will some of that larger sample read as "male". I don't know - what does male writing look like? But it is likely that there will be new styles and themes that don't appear to cluster in the way men and women currently perceive female SF does.

Maybe that is an unacceptable premise, and the problem that the current crop of female SF books should be enjoyed by all whether everyone likes it or not. Can you think of a way to make SF readers more interested in whatever female SF subject matter is?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Absolutely. Though to be fair, I don't read that many fantasy books by men because most of my favourite writers are women. I didn't consciously make that decision, but it turned out that way. It leads me to wonder if maybe there are differences in the way men tend to write vs the way women do. Do you think there are?

I think there probably are - but that is put forward as an argument against women writing sf, that we don't write what the market wants. So, for me, I'd like to see a more open market where those differences don't matter because we have room for all the stories

 

[Danny McG]

As a voracious sff reader I do tend to look out any new books by male writers first. Only if nothing catches my eye do I then scan back along the same shelves to see the latest women writers new offerings.
However my bought stuff at home doesn't really show this. Its near enough equal by gender.
I think it's because 'back in the day' when my tastes were developing women genre writers were very rare, and also a lot of my teen peer group would have sarky commented if they saw me at the library checkout with a 'girly' book. This has obviously defined my preferences decades later.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I didn't consciously make that decision, but it turned out that way. It leads me to wonder if maybe there are differences in the way men tend to write vs the way women do. Do you think there are?

Of course. And for all sorts of reasons, although I believe most of those come down to social conditioning.

But just because we might write differently that doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek to read what the other gender is writing. In fact I think the reverse must be true. If we want to understand each other, reading things written from the other gender's perspective seems like an excellent way to begin. Not all the time, mind you, but often would be good.

 

[RX-79G]

I think there probably are - but that is put forward as an argument against women writing sf, that we don't write what the market wants. So, for me, I'd like to see a more open market where those differences don't matter because we have room for all the stories

This sounds good. What does "a more open market" mean?

 

[Ursa major]

Is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

 

[Dan Jones]

No, this is abuse. Arguments are next door.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Would it not be preferable to not start with the base assumption that the person you are speaking with is a Neandrathal?

Highly desirable. Which is why I didn't start with that base assumption.

Can you think of a way to make SF readers more interested in whatever female SF subject matter is?

I don't think we can make anybody more interested in anything. They have to want to expand their interests. Maybe, as a male, you could tell me what might possibly encourage them to do so.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

This sounds good. What does "a more open market" mean?

what we've been talking about for the last 10 pages.

One where there isn't an assumption that blokes read sf or that women just go along to the latest Star Wars film because they fancied popcorn, or were brought along, rather than that 41% of the audience were as likely to want to be there as the other 59%. (Personally I pop along for the space pilots.)

In short, a market that is open to the many, many female readers in it and that actively supports women entering the genre in the hope it encourages more - without discouraging males.

 

[Hex]

I guess if the people who make the films have that opinion about the audience -- and they might have the demographic information to know -- then you're back to square one.

Is our argument that it's down to men to make the sff environment more welcoming to and sympathetic to female authors?

(have to admit, I'd prefer it wasn't expressed that way, though if that's the desirable outcome, I guess there may not be many different ways to express it)

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

or that women just go along to the latest Star Wars film because they fancied popcorn, or were brought along, rather than that 41% of the audience were as likely to want to be there as the other 59%.

When I think of how keen some of the younger women in my family are on Star Wars . . .

Is our argument that it's down to men to make the sff environment more welcoming to and sympathetic to female authors?

Personally, I'd happily settle if some of them (and I am NOT referring to anyone posting in this thread) were less actively hostile.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I guess if the people who make the films have that opinion about the audience -- and they might have the demographic information to know -- then you're back to square one.

Is our argument that it's down to men to make the sff environment more welcoming to and sympathetic to female authors?

(have to admit, I'd prefer it wasn't expressed that way, though if that's the desirable outcome, I guess there may not be many different ways to express it)

God no. It's a cultural thing. Time is what it's down to. And chipping away. And more female authirs getting their stuff out there and to hell with the gatekeepers. And slowly the dinosaurs become the minority and we all live happily ever after

 

[RX-79G]

I don't think we can make anybody more interested in anything. They have to want to expand their interests. Maybe, as a male, you could tell me what might possibly encourage them to do so.

A small thing would be to not have so many reviews focus on the "uniquely feminine voice" of an author. It isn't bad that something is feminine, but if you actually are trying to get those stupid, stupid men to read something on its merits rather than gender, how about emphasizing merits that aren't gender?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

When I think of how keen some of the younger women in my family are on Star Wars . . .



Personally, I'd happily settle if some of them (and I am NOT referring to anyone posting in this thread) were less actively hostile.

I know! My 12 yr old came home from R1 and went straight into New Hope. She even rated the prequels as Very Poor. I wiped a proud tear from my eye (actually she is leaning towards genre in her voracious reading - where my older daughter likes crime and mysteries)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

A small thing would be to not have so many reviews focus on the "uniquely feminine voice" of an author. It isn't bad that something is feminine, but if you actually are trying to get those stupid, stupid men to read something on its merits rather than gender, how about emphasizing merits that aren't gender?

Where are you reading these reviews? In hundreds of reviews I have one that mentions me being a female. Do you have a source or evidence for how prevalent such reviews might be?